What "rights" does nature give us?

[Procrustes Stretched]

funny thing is he acts like me, or is it I act like him? too funny

[youtube]WDQQfBrSUs0[/youtube]

 

[Michelle420]

Well...

True, but it's not that simple. Whoever controls the military...

I know it's not simple but we need a new one and scrap the old one, from the get go that old document had bias, slaves didn't have a voice, women were not allowed to vote.

Secondly, we ought to let our native americans have a voice in this whole thing dontcha think?

I think that before scrapping the concept launched in 1776 we should give it a try with fair and simple taxes, public budgets that are balanced by law and transparency in all things politics.

If I must contribute resources to fund a military, I'd rather organize behind the U.S. Constitution than any other political document ever proposed for a similar land mass and/or population. Is America 'evolving'? Duh! Of course! And that's the beauty of it. The Constitution is a flexible document that's evolving around and with those of us who choose to defend it.

Don't let the door hit you on the ass, Bro'.

What's wrong with writing a new one ideal for modern times and with equal representation for all groups>?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

When did the era get passed?

Why Was the Equal Rights Amendment Never Passed?
Is gay marriage legal now?

Nobody questions white males births, but get a black man running and we go back to the fact that this document was written for white men, as black men were slaves owned property and women had no voting voice.

I appreciate your reply.

I had posted directly after this post because I had not seen it, apologies for my snarky.

I understand the living document concept, for some it isn't working out so well which stands to reason if only one group had an advantage from the get go the rest strive to catch up.

Be well !

When did the era get passed? I remember the battle well. The people did not step up.

The Constitution has been applied to protect the rights of minorities of all sorts. Even people who were held at GITMO. Did you know that?

I am not talking about the living document theory. Others have agreed the Constitution applies to black men, women, people without property, immigrants...

Unless you can convince others about the need for change, then convince them you have the answers for change, you are wasting your time arguing about what was what in the 1700s and 1800s

I happen to plenty of constitutionalists who like libertarians would love to go back to those times

Didn't protect american arabs after 9/11 from being held in detention camps not given an attorney or rights and liberty.

In a Virtual Internment Camp: Muslim Americans since 9/11

Most people who call themselves constitutionalists or libertarians are imbecilic nitwits with a poor grasp of the principles they avow to hold so dear. Their biggest sin is that they forget principles are there to serve humanity, not the other way around. Many would follow a principle to it's logical conclusion no matter what the outcome. It's called insanity

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I know it's not simple but we need a new one and scrap the old one, from the get go that old document had bias, slaves didn't have a voice, women were not allowed to vote.

Secondly, we ought to let our native americans have a voice in this whole thing dontcha think?

I think that before scrapping the concept launched in 1776 we should give it a try with fair and simple taxes, public budgets that are balanced by law and transparency in all things politics.

If I must contribute resources to fund a military, I'd rather organize behind the U.S. Constitution than any other political document ever proposed for a similar land mass and/or population. Is America 'evolving'? Duh! Of course! And that's the beauty of it. The Constitution is a flexible document that's evolving around and with those of us who choose to defend it.

Don't let the door hit you on the ass, Bro'.

What's wrong with writing a new one ideal for modern times and with equal representation for all groups>?

Nothing. And all groups are protected now. No one has faith in enough people to write a new document.

only a crisis of epic proportions would suffice

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You equating animal instincts and urges with human nature? Mankind has evolved beyond others in the animal kingdom. Animals don't have art, but they piss and shit in patterns. Some can even mimic humans. But conceptually the rest of the animals are far behind. Animals yearn for freedom? I don't think so. They may want to roam as instinct and their natures demand, but the concept of freedom? Whooweee

I am not doing anything of the sort.

What I am pointing out is that the desire for freedom is not a human construct, it exists outside humanity.

In the context of natural rights being freedom, it is a human construct.

As far as yearning and instincts to roam wild, what a social animal wants (not all animals as some are loners) is to be wild and follow it's instincts...that is not the same thing as the human concept of freedom...and you know better

If that were true no other species would exhibit a desire for life, liberty, or happiness.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

love and freedom? you can touch them? of course not because they are abstract concepts

We already know you think they are hard to understand.

stop being a friggin' idiot. It gets boring

I am trying to converse at your intellectual level, I guess idiot is as dumb as I can go.

 

[Michelle420]

He was an interesting guy, there was a documentary about him some guy tracked him down, he was 76 yrs old at the time a hermit in redding bitter as ever and he was writing a political book.

He had a lot of anger at Dick Cheney

I just like his outbursts even at himself. ( he tells himself to shut the fuck up)

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I am not doing anything of the sort.

What I am pointing out is that the desire for freedom is not a human construct, it exists outside humanity.

In the context of natural rights being freedom, it is a human construct.

As far as yearning and instincts to roam wild, what a social animal wants (not all animals as some are loners) is to be wild and follow it's instincts...that is not the same thing as the human concept of freedom...and you know better

If that were true no other species would exhibit a desire for life, liberty, or happiness.

stop being an idiot

are you watching Planet of the Apes again?

 

[AVG-JOE]

let me repeat:

Is the US Constitution a flawed document? Of course and many of the framers and the 'people' who ratified it understood that. What would you have them do? It was an up or down vote, or stay with the Articles of Confederation.

You conveniently ignore, or gloss over the fact that people excluded are now included. We have a process to change it.

I have asked people for decades now "name me a dozen people you would trust to write a new constitution" -- no takers. It would of course take many more than a dozen. Trust the current Congress to do it?

The US Constitution was drafted behind closed doors with no official record kept of the deliberations, in order to allow members meeting to go back and forth and change minds as arguments were made and remade. Then the document was not given to the states to vote on, but to the people of the states to vote on through elected committee members separate from state government.

No government voted on what type of new government would rule the Americans. The 'people' of the states voted as a nation for the first time. They demanded a Bill of Rights as a condition of ratification, even though many of the framers argued they didn't need one, as rights were supposed to be self evident...

Part of the Bill of Rights allows for amendments to alter the document to fit the times, but it's a difficult process because they understood....human nature.

When did the era get passed?

Why Was the Equal Rights Amendment Never Passed?
Is gay marriage legal now?

Nobody questions white males births, but get a black man running and we go back to the fact that this document was written for white men, as black men were slaves owned property and women had no voting voice.

I appreciate your reply.

I had posted directly after this post because I had not seen it, apologies for my snarky.

I understand the living document concept, for some it isn't working out so well which stands to reason if only one group had an advantage from the get go the rest strive to catch up.

Be well !

When did the era get passed? I remember the battle well. The people did not step up.

The Constitution has been applied to protect the rights of minorities of all sorts. Even people who were held at GITMO. Did you know that?

I am not talking about the living document theory. Others have agreed the Constitution applies to black men, women, people without property, immigrants...

Unless you can convince others about the need for change, then convince them you have the answers for change, you are wasting your time arguing about what was what in the 1700s and 1800s

That's the beauty of it. It may have been written by white, Christian men of property and it may have even been written for white Christian men of property at the time, but it has changed and evolved as this land and it's various communities of Monkeys have changed and evolved over the last 240 years, and as bad as things are, things are a LOT fucking better.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

We are not bound to anything as human beings, we are born into socially constructed civilizations that expect us to adhere to rules setup perhaps over 200 years ago that from the get go was hypocritical in that "we the people" were not allowed a chance to even vote on this constitution, only white men had that honor.

That doesn't necessarily mean it's not a worthy document to organize behind.

It's outdated imo and I resent the fact that only white males constructed it, I suspect bias.

Constitutionalists are like bible thumpers in the way they treat this document, it's as if people in the modern age are not allowed to question it.

Let me see if I understand your POV, your innate racism leads you to believe that a document is racist because you are too stupid to think beyond your limitations.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

That doesn't necessarily mean it's not a worthy document to organize behind.

It's outdated imo and I resent the fact that only white males constructed it, I suspect bias.

Constitutionalists are like bible thumpers in the way they treat this document, it's as if people in the modern age are not allowed to question it.

Let me see if I understand your POV, your innate racism leads you to believe that a document is racist because you are too stupid to think beyond your limitations.

Oh please, your white victimhood has outdone anything most people here have seen

 

[AVG-JOE]

When did the era get passed?

Why Was the Equal Rights Amendment Never Passed?
Is gay marriage legal now?

Nobody questions white males births, but get a black man running and we go back to the fact that this document was written for white men, as black men were slaves owned property and women had no voting voice.

I appreciate your reply.

I had posted directly after this post because I had not seen it, apologies for my snarky.

I understand the living document concept, for some it isn't working out so well which stands to reason if only one group had an advantage from the get go the rest strive to catch up.

Be well !

When did the era get passed? I remember the battle well. The people did not step up.

The Constitution has been applied to protect the rights of minorities of all sorts. Even people who were held at GITMO. Did you know that?

I am not talking about the living document theory. Others have agreed the Constitution applies to black men, women, people without property, immigrants...

Unless you can convince others about the need for change, then convince them you have the answers for change, you are wasting your time arguing about what was what in the 1700s and 1800s

I happen to plenty of constitutionalists who like libertarians would love to go back to those times

Time only goes one way. At least as Monkeys experience it.

 

[Michelle420]

When did the era get passed?

Why Was the Equal Rights Amendment Never Passed?
Is gay marriage legal now?

Nobody questions white males births, but get a black man running and we go back to the fact that this document was written for white men, as black men were slaves owned property and women had no voting voice.

I appreciate your reply.

I had posted directly after this post because I had not seen it, apologies for my snarky.

I understand the living document concept, for some it isn't working out so well which stands to reason if only one group had an advantage from the get go the rest strive to catch up.

Be well !

When did the era get passed? I remember the battle well. The people did not step up.

The Constitution has been applied to protect the rights of minorities of all sorts. Even people who were held at GITMO. Did you know that?

I am not talking about the living document theory. Others have agreed the Constitution applies to black men, women, people without property, immigrants...

Unless you can convince others about the need for change, then convince them you have the answers for change, you are wasting your time arguing about what was what in the 1700s and 1800s

That's the beauty of it. It may have been written by white, Christian men of property and it may have even been written for white Christian men of property at the time, but it has changed and evolved as this land and it's various communities of Monkeys have changed and evolved over the last 240 years, and as bad as things are, things are a LOT fucking better.

should "pure constitutionalists" or hard core libertarians have their way I intend to be constitutionally disobedient.

That's all I got to say about it

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Definition of TANGIBLE
1) a : capable of being perceived especially by the sense of touch : palpable
b : substantially real : material

2) : capable of being precisely identified or realized by the mind <her grief was tangible>

3) : capable of being appraised at an actual or approximate value <tangible assets>

----

now what definition is it people were/are using?

Definition #1 is the one you are using. According to that, magnetic fields are human constructs that don't in fact exist in reality.

natural rights are human constructs = definition 1?


what people are responding to...

1. Not at all. Merely differentiating concepts and material objects, since that was getting confused by you and others.

2. Glad they're working out for you, and fingers crossed you don't change your mind, and with it, their existence, for you. (noodle on that, and you'll see how they're both conceptual.)

The people that are confused are the idiots that think intangible means unreal.

Game, set, match.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I know it's not simple but we need a new one and scrap the old one, from the get go that old document had bias, slaves didn't have a voice, women were not allowed to vote.

Secondly, we ought to let our native americans have a voice in this whole thing dontcha think?

I think that before scrapping the concept launched in 1776 we should give it a try with fair and simple taxes, public budgets that are balanced by law and transparency in all things politics.

If I must contribute resources to fund a military, I'd rather organize behind the U.S. Constitution than any other political document ever proposed for a similar land mass and/or population. Is America 'evolving'? Duh! Of course! And that's the beauty of it. The Constitution is a flexible document that's evolving around and with those of us who choose to defend it.

Don't let the door hit you on the ass, Bro'.

What's wrong with writing a new one ideal for modern times and with equal representation for all groups>?

Can you point out why we need to create a new ideal when we already have what you want?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

In the context of natural rights being freedom, it is a human construct.

As far as yearning and instincts to roam wild, what a social animal wants (not all animals as some are loners) is to be wild and follow it's instincts...that is not the same thing as the human concept of freedom...and you know better

If that were true no other species would exhibit a desire for life, liberty, or happiness.

stop being an idiot

are you watching Planet of the Apes again?

National Geographic

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It's outdated imo and I resent the fact that only white males constructed it, I suspect bias.

Constitutionalists are like bible thumpers in the way they treat this document, it's as if people in the modern age are not allowed to question it.

Let me see if I understand your POV, your innate racism leads you to believe that a document is racist because you are too stupid to think beyond your limitations.

Oh please, your white victimhood has outdone anything most people here have seen

What, exactly, makes you think I am white?

 

[Michelle420]

I think that before scrapping the concept launched in 1776 we should give it a try with fair and simple taxes, public budgets that are balanced by law and transparency in all things politics.

If I must contribute resources to fund a military, I'd rather organize behind the U.S. Constitution than any other political document ever proposed for a similar land mass and/or population. Is America 'evolving'? Duh! Of course! And that's the beauty of it. The Constitution is a flexible document that's evolving around and with those of us who choose to defend it.

Don't let the door hit you on the ass, Bro'.

What's wrong with writing a new one ideal for modern times and with equal representation for all groups>?

Can you point out why we need to create a new ideal when we already have what you want?

Windbag: wind·bag
/&#712;wind&#716;bag/Nounderogatory. A person who talks at length but says little of any value.

 

[dblack]

When did the era get passed?

Why Was the Equal Rights Amendment Never Passed?
Is gay marriage legal now?

Nobody questions white males births, but get a black man running and we go back to the fact that this document was written for white men, as black men were slaves owned property and women had no voting voice.

I appreciate your reply.

I had posted directly after this post because I had not seen it, apologies for my snarky.

I understand the living document concept, for some it isn't working out so well which stands to reason if only one group had an advantage from the get go the rest strive to catch up.

Be well !

When did the era get passed? I remember the battle well. The people did not step up.

The Constitution has been applied to protect the rights of minorities of all sorts. Even people who were held at GITMO. Did you know that?

I am not talking about the living document theory. Others have agreed the Constitution applies to black men, women, people without property, immigrants...

Unless you can convince others about the need for change, then convince them you have the answers for change, you are wasting your time arguing about what was what in the 1700s and 1800s

That's the beauty of it. It may have been written by white, Christian men of property and it may have even been written for white Christian men of property at the time, but it has changed and evolved as this land and it's various communities of Monkeys have changed and evolved over the last 240 years, and as bad as things are, things are a LOT fucking better.

The power of ideas is breathtaking. The fact that the principles and ideals set forth in the Constitution outlasted its authors, even ultimately contradicting them and demanding the freedom of those they enslaved, speaks volumes. Ideology and principles aren't the bad guys here.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

QW is the class doofus

end of story