What "rights" does nature give us?

[CrotchetyGeezer]

I have.

He's wrong about "natural rights".

Nature..as we define it..is pretty different from human constructs.

In nature, rights are defined by groups of animals banding together.

And by the animals in that group.

Sound familiar?

Really? In nature, rights are defined by groups of animals banding together? You don't know about nature and animals...do you? Not all animals "band together" and they lead solitary lives. The tiger is the first example I can come up with. It depends upon itself and doesn't "band together" with nothing. And, what rights does nature give us? The right to survive.

Additionally, I've always got to love how some folks can try to think they can separate human beings from nature, as if human beings' existence and everything they do is some anomaly of which wasn't meant to be.

Who is some schmo to tell anyone that who they are and what they do isn't every bit as much a part of nature as anything else is? For instance, if I drive a car, some might say, "Well, that isn't natural". Who says? Who would they be to tell me that isn't as natural as a lion killing an antelope or a caterpillar building a cocoon?

It's as if they think, somehow, they know I wasn't meant to drive a car. But, I'm capable of learning how to drive a car so, why wouldn't I be meant to drive a car? But, some might say that by the fact that I need to learn how to drive a car, this isn't natural. Who says? Who says the ability of a human being to learn, is unnatural and wasn't meant to be? The capacity for human beings to learn is just as natural as a tree growing in the forest.

The right to survive? Nope, not even that.

Sure even that.


No one is trying to separate human beings from nature...what has been said is a person's nature, is something a human being has and it is separate from the force nature/god/creator.

Bullshit!


Driving a car isn't part of human instinct. As that schmo I tell you .... stop embarrassing the species -- stfu

Doesn't matter if it's a part of human instinct or not. Learning is a part of human instinct and a human's capacity to learn, whether it be to drive a car or paint an ocean scene, is as natural as a tree growing in the forest. And, the only embarrassment to the species is you and I don't take orders from you and I don't plan on ShuttingTFU anytime soon. Go ahead, enlighten us. What IS part of "human instinct", according to you?

 

[SniperFire]

There seems to be some strange notion that to recognize the fact that our rights are a consequence of our humanity, acknowledged and codified by Constitutional case law, and not the ‘creation’ of a non-existent deity, that our civil liberties are somehow ‘illegitimate.’

It goes without saying that this is ignorant idiocy.

Indeed, the fact that our rights are recognized as a result of human struggle, where men have fought and died for their rights against ignorance, hate, and intolerance, makes our rights that much more valuable and legitimate, as opposed to something just ‘given’ to us by an imagined god.

Of course, the opposite is true as it applies to the unalienable rights which became the most important tenet of the founding of the United States of America.

But keep repeating it and you might eventually convince yourself of your pathetic lie.


LOL

N CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.
...
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.'

 

[AVG-JOE]

Freedom is relative, but the documents imply everyone was equal back then and had rights , this was not true.


Let's just be honest about it.

It is what it is.

They didn't have rights? Can you explain why, if they did not have rights, you are upset by the fact that some of them were slaves? That only makes sense if they actually had rights and they were being oppressed.

Can't imagine why, if there's no such thing as human rights beyond what the government chooses to give you via the law, leftists think slavery is a bad thing at all.
On what basis is it "bad", precisely?

Now there's a damn fine question...

On what basis is EVERY bad thing "bad", precisely?


What makes bad stuff "bad"?
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i68uA2IsvQ]Michael Jackson - Bad - Live at Wembley 1988 [HD] - YouTube[/ame]

 

[LibertyLemming]

Rights do not come from anything. Natural rights are what a natural man would have, a man who is alone in nature with nothing to force him to do anything. The right to murder, rape, kill, smoke a blunt, fuck a kangaroo, whatever, these are all natural rights. The first man, the one alone with nature, had all these rights.

Obviously society has enacted contracts to prevent some things, such as murder, rape, theft. Basically things that would inhibit another person's liberty. Of course, as one freedom goes away, so will all the rest, and we are now in a time when our rights are almost non-existent. Eventually it will become too much for the people to handle, revolution will occur as it always does, a new better system will begin, and it will eventually fall into tyranny as all nations do. Rinse and repeat until we are all dead.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Wrong.

They are an acknowledgement.

the words themselves are an acknowledgement, the reality is those words refer to concepts

EUREKA!

You admit America was founded on the principle of God-given unalienable rights.

Blind hog finds acorn.

That you hate the founding principles of America - and ergo, America itself - is the topic of another thread.

/thread

Idiot. America was founded on what the founders thought at that time. What they thought is a matter of debate among scholars and regular folks alike.

The Constitution and Declaration both hint to rights some people believed came from a god and/or nature. Some people back then were for all practical purposes Deists, Atheists, and Agnostics.

The rights the founders claimed existed come out of philosophical writings. The document we are referring to contains an acknowledgement of rights the founders 'believed' existed. Those rights are abstract constructs out of the human mind.

They do not exist in nature as entities on their own.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

There seems to be some strange notion that to recognize the fact that our rights are a consequence of our humanity, acknowledged and codified by Constitutional case law, and not the ‘creation’ of a non-existent deity, that our civil liberties are somehow ‘illegitimate.’

It goes without saying that this is ignorant idiocy.

Indeed, the fact that our rights are recognized as a result of human struggle, where men have fought and died for their rights against ignorance, hate, and intolerance, makes our rights that much more valuable and legitimate, as opposed to something just ‘given’ to us by an imagined god.

what are you saying? people are arguing about a non existing creator?.

What Dante and other people have been saying is that the natural rights being referred to are legitimate because we as individuals and society acknowledge them to be so...it is we who created them, not some supreme force or being...but that they can cease to exist in reality if we so choose it to be so.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Really? In nature, rights are defined by groups of animals banding together? You don't know about nature and animals...do you? Not all animals "band together" and they lead solitary lives. The tiger is the first example I can come up with. It depends upon itself and doesn't "band together" with nothing. And, what rights does nature give us? The right to survive.

Additionally, I've always got to love how some folks can try to think they can separate human beings from nature, as if human beings' existence and everything they do is some anomaly of which wasn't meant to be.

Who is some schmo to tell anyone that who they are and what they do isn't every bit as much a part of nature as anything else is? For instance, if I drive a car, some might say, "Well, that isn't natural". Who says? Who would they be to tell me that isn't as natural as a lion killing an antelope or a caterpillar building a cocoon?

It's as if they think, somehow, they know I wasn't meant to drive a car. But, I'm capable of learning how to drive a car so, why wouldn't I be meant to drive a car? But, some might say that by the fact that I need to learn how to drive a car, this isn't natural. Who says? Who says the ability of a human being to learn, is unnatural and wasn't meant to be? The capacity for human beings to learn is just as natural as a tree growing in the forest.

The right to survive? Nope, not even that.

Sure even that.


No one is trying to separate human beings from nature...what has been said is a person's nature, is something a human being has and it is separate from the force nature/god/creator.

Bullshit!


Driving a car isn't part of human instinct. As that schmo I tell you .... stop embarrassing the species -- stfu

Doesn't matter if it's a part of human instinct or not. Learning is a part of human instinct and a human's capacity to learn, whether it be to drive a car or paint an ocean scene, is as natural as a tree growing in the forest. And, the only embarrassment to the species is you and I don't take orders from you and I don't plan on ShuttingTFU anytime soon. Go ahead, enlighten us. What IS part of "human instinct", according to you?

Do you suffer from mental deficit(s)?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Rights do not come from anything. Natural rights are what a natural man would have, a man who is alone in nature with nothing to force him to do anything. The right to murder, rape, kill, smoke a blunt, fuck a kangaroo, whatever, these are all natural rights. The first man, the one alone with nature, had all these rights.

Obviously society has enacted contracts to prevent some things, such as murder, rape, theft. Basically things that would prohibit another person's liberty. Of course, as one freedom goes away, so will all the rest, and we are now in a time when our rights are almost non-existent. Eventually it will become too much for the people to handle, revolution will occur as it always does, a new better system will begin, and it will eventually fall into tyranny as all nations do. Rinse and repeat until we are all dead.

except this which seems to be a reaction more than a well thought out idea: " we are now in a time when our rights are almost non-existent."

 

[CrotchetyGeezer]

The right to survive? Nope, not even that.

Sure even that.


No one is trying to separate human beings from nature...what has been said is a person's nature, is something a human being has and it is separate from the force nature/god/creator.

Bullshit!


Driving a car isn't part of human instinct. As that schmo I tell you .... stop embarrassing the species -- stfu

Doesn't matter if it's a part of human instinct or not. Learning is a part of human instinct and a human's capacity to learn, whether it be to drive a car or paint an ocean scene, is as natural as a tree growing in the forest. And, the only embarrassment to the species is you and I don't take orders from you and I don't plan on ShuttingTFU anytime soon. Go ahead, enlighten us. What IS part of "human instinct", according to you?

Do you suffer from mental deficit(s)?

Do you?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Doesn't matter if it's a part of human instinct or not. Learning is a part of human instinct and a human's capacity to learn, whether it be to drive a car or paint an ocean scene, is as natural as a tree growing in the forest. And, the only embarrassment to the species is you and I don't take orders from you and I don't plan on ShuttingTFU anytime soon. Go ahead, enlighten us. What IS part of "human instinct", according to you?

Do you suffer from mental deficit(s)?

Do you?

Having always been above average I wouldn't know

 

[CrotchetyGeezer]

Do you suffer from mental deficit(s)?

Do you?

Having always been above average I wouldn't know

Having always been above average mental deficits, you wouldn't know?

 

[LibertyLemming]

Rights do not come from anything. Natural rights are what a natural man would have, a man who is alone in nature with nothing to force him to do anything. The right to murder, rape, kill, smoke a blunt, fuck a kangaroo, whatever, these are all natural rights. The first man, the one alone with nature, had all these rights.

Obviously society has enacted contracts to prevent some things, such as murder, rape, theft. Basically things that would prohibit another person's liberty. Of course, as one freedom goes away, so will all the rest, and we are now in a time when our rights are almost non-existent. Eventually it will become too much for the people to handle, revolution will occur as it always does, a new better system will begin, and it will eventually fall into tyranny as all nations do. Rinse and repeat until we are all dead.

except this which seems to be a reaction more than a well thought out idea: " we are now in a time when our rights are almost non-existent."

Well. You can't ride in your car without a seatbelt. You cant ride without a helmet. I can't smoke a plant in my own house. We have so many laws protecting people from themselves it is insane. I can't keep all the money I earn. I can't not have health care. I can be forced to go kill people by my government. I can be spied on, listened to, wiretapped, home invaded, without my consent. I can't even own property, literally there are ZERO property owners in this country.The government owns every single piece of land/property because if you don't pay you property taxes they take your property. I can't even quit being an american without paying a government tribute or I get locked in a cage. We are BY FUCKING FAR the leaders in imprisonment of people. Not too mention the fact that we murder innocent people by the thousands overseas.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Really? In nature, rights are defined by groups of animals banding together? You don't know about nature and animals...do you? Not all animals "band together" and they lead solitary lives. The tiger is the first example I can come up with. It depends upon itself and doesn't "band together" with nothing. And, what rights does nature give us? The right to survive.

Additionally, I've always got to love how some folks can try to think they can separate human beings from nature, as if human beings' existence and everything they do is some anomaly of which wasn't meant to be.

Who is some schmo to tell anyone that who they are and what they do isn't every bit as much a part of nature as anything else is? For instance, if I drive a car, some might say, "Well, that isn't natural". Who says? Who would they be to tell me that isn't as natural as a lion killing an antelope or a caterpillar building a cocoon?

It's as if they think, somehow, they know I wasn't meant to drive a car. But, I'm capable of learning how to drive a car so, why wouldn't I be meant to drive a car? But, some might say that by the fact that I need to learn how to drive a car, this isn't natural. Who says? Who says the ability of a human being to learn, is unnatural and wasn't meant to be? The capacity for human beings to learn is just as natural as a tree growing in the forest.

The right to survive? Nope, not even that.

Sure even that.


No one is trying to separate human beings from nature...what has been said is a person's nature, is something a human being has and it is separate from the force nature/god/creator.

Bullshit!


Driving a car isn't part of human instinct. As that schmo I tell you .... stop embarrassing the species -- stfu

Doesn't matter if it's a part of human instinct or not. Learning is a part of human instinct and a human's capacity to learn, whether it be to drive a car or paint an ocean scene, is as natural as a tree growing in the forest. And, the only embarrassment to the species is you and I don't take orders from you and I don't plan on ShuttingTFU anytime soon. Go ahead, enlighten us. What IS part of "human instinct", according to you?

Something that is personally instinctual like driving a car...is instinctual only for the particular driver....not everyone can drive one, and not everyone drives so...

Driving a car is not part of the set of human instincts

get it yet?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Rights do not come from anything. Natural rights are what a natural man would have, a man who is alone in nature with nothing to force him to do anything. The right to murder, rape, kill, smoke a blunt, fuck a kangaroo, whatever, these are all natural rights. The first man, the one alone with nature, had all these rights.

Obviously society has enacted contracts to prevent some things, such as murder, rape, theft. Basically things that would prohibit another person's liberty. Of course, as one freedom goes away, so will all the rest, and we are now in a time when our rights are almost non-existent. Eventually it will become too much for the people to handle, revolution will occur as it always does, a new better system will begin, and it will eventually fall into tyranny as all nations do. Rinse and repeat until we are all dead.

except this which seems to be a reaction more than a well thought out idea: " we are now in a time when our rights are almost non-existent."

Well. You can't ride in your car without a seatbelt. You cant ride without a helmet. I can't smoke a plant in my own house. We have so many laws protecting people from themselves it is insane.

I can't keep all the money I earn.

I can't not have health care.

I can be forced to go kill people by my government.

I can be spied on, listened to, wiretapped, home invaded, without my consent. I can't even own property, literally there are ZERO property owners in this country.The government owns every single piece of land/property because if you don't pay you property taxes they take your property. I can't even quit being an american without paying a government tribute or I get locked in a cage. We are BY FUCKING FAR the leaders in imprisonment of people. Not too mention the fact that we murder innocent people by the thousands overseas.

Driving is a privilege, not a right. The laws are not all to protect people from themselves, some are there to keep the rest of society from picking up the tab for personal irresponsibility or risk. I do agree there are too many petty local laws enacted to control behaviors...but I do not agree that attacks my 'freedoms' ...like smoking

Keeping all the money/labor/wealth/property you earn (as opposed to steal or inherit) has never been a way societies existed.

When you don't have health care, society picks up the tab....and you can have no health care...pay the fine. Remember, freedom isn't free

War has always been a part of humanity. Grow up.

the rest of your stuff goes off the reservation. you have a few sound arguments, but they get buried in alarmist hysteria based on false assumptions and poor critical thinking skills

 

[CrotchetyGeezer]

The right to survive? Nope, not even that.

Sure even that.


No one is trying to separate human beings from nature...what has been said is a person's nature, is something a human being has and it is separate from the force nature/god/creator.

Bullshit!


Driving a car isn't part of human instinct. As that schmo I tell you .... stop embarrassing the species -- stfu

Doesn't matter if it's a part of human instinct or not. Learning is a part of human instinct and a human's capacity to learn, whether it be to drive a car or paint an ocean scene, is as natural as a tree growing in the forest. And, the only embarrassment to the species is you and I don't take orders from you and I don't plan on ShuttingTFU anytime soon. Go ahead, enlighten us. What IS part of "human instinct", according to you?

Something that is personally instinctual like driving a car...is instinctual only for the particular driver....not everyone can drive one, and not everyone drives so...

Everyone is capable of learning how to drive.

Driving a car is not part of the set of human instincts

Learning is indeed a set of human instincts. Doesn't matter of they learn how to drive or learn how to sharpen a spear to kill a deer for food.

get it yet?

Sure. Only question is, do you get it yet? A lion, for example, is born with the tools it needs to hunt and if it uses its claws and teeth to kill its prey, that's instinct. A human being isn't born with the tools to hunt and has to learn how to make and use the tools necessary for hunting so, does that make it any less natural that a human being might hunt with a sharpened spear, for instance, as opposed to a lion hunting with its teeth and claws? No, because learning to sharpen the spear and use it is the natural instinct human beings are armed with.

 

[Contumacious]

Driving is a privilege, not a right.

You are right again.

Don't you ever wonder where those stupid son-of-bitches get the idea that driving is a right?

As always, Heil Hitler.

.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Instinct or innate behavior is the inherent inclination of a living organism toward a particular complex behavior. Instinct - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Examples of behaviors that do not require conscious will include many reflexes. The stimulus in a reflex may not require brain activity but instead may travel to the spinal cord as a message that is then transmitted back through the body, tracing a path called the reflex arc. Reflexes are similar to fixed action patterns in that most reflexes meet the criteria of a FAP. However, a fixed action pattern can be processed in the brain as well; a male stickleback's instinctive aggression towards anything red during his mating season is such an example. Examples of instinctive behaviors in humans include many of the primitive reflexes, such as rooting and suckling, behaviors which are present in mammals.


HowStuffWorks "Hard-wired Human Survival Instincts"

Human Nature - Human Instincts.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Driving is a privilege, not a right.

You are right again. Don't you ever wonder where those stupid son-of-bitches get the idea that driving is a right?

As always, Heil Hitler.

As always, you're sick with something incurable

 

[jesus_nihilist]

Everything relevant to natural rights evolves from Kemet and prior to Kemet. Kemet was the dawn of civilization and the lessons we learn from Kemet are what has evolved. When we read John Locke or the constitution, what we are reading is the evolution of Kemetic ideology.

Some of the relevant (but not the only relevant) aspects of Kemetic thought is the concept of ma'at.

We have used this in our constitution, "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility"

Ma'at is the concept of justice and truth over all else. It's important that there be a system in place for justice and truth to be heard and enforced. We have known this from the dawn of humankind that truth and justice, ma'at, are natural rights of all people.


Furthermore, if we look onwards we see the concept of akhu. This relates to the sayings in many cultures that are told to the young children, "Respect your elders" as well as "Respect the dead". These ideologies were invented in the Kemetic thought, where it was realized that the people who came before you, your ancestors, were to be respected and to be listened to and to be repeated. Akhu is a societal norm that feeds into the also important concept of community that is natural in Kemetic thought.

Community is built by family, and Akhu is the primary factor in building family. If the young people do not respect what the older people have to say, what they have learned from their experience, there can be no progress. If the young people do not listen to the warning to not touch the hot oven, they'll touch the hot oven and they will have to learn that lesson by themselves. So akhu is important to community building. But furthermore, community building is an aspect of what we could consider 'natural' rights, to live in a community where members of the community participate and contribute. Akhu was a concept that came long before John Locke's social contract.

But as we talk about community, we reach the natural right of respect. There cannot be family or a community without respect. Respect in the sense that the community you build, you are responsible for. Respect in the sense of respecting someone's privacy. Respect in the sense of seeing oneself as not an individual, but a member of a society, of a community, of that you are mutually responsible for.


Now, keeping in mind that Kemet is the foundation of all ideologies that came after, because the Greeks and Romans transcribed these beliefs into their own versions which we often reference today, there are more recent relevant examples of natural rights that interestingly enough influenced what we believe today to be the 'natural rights' present in our country constitution.


The Iroquois people, or whom we could call generally 'native americans', though we must note that the Iroquois people is a specific tribe. They are not the same as the Cherokee or the Utes, they are a specific set of native americans and that is why we will reference them as Iroquois people instead of the more generic term. These people formed the first United nation in 1390 AD. Their ideologies are what we base our current constitution on, their concept of basic natural rights was extremely forward thinking and significant to our culture.

They too share the concept of upholding Ma'at, but they spoke of it in their own cultural language. Most specifically, "The Great White Roots", which was used metaphorically as being the roots of a tree, "The Tree Of Great Long Leaves", which was the metaphorical name of the concept of their nation and their ability to not 'claim' land, but to peruse the land in the ways that they needed it and nothing more. Anyhow, the Great White Roots were the concept of justice and obeying order and law. In the words of their constitution, " The name of these roots is The Great White Roots and their nature is Peace and Strength. If any man or any nation outside the Five Nations shall obey the laws of the Great Peace and make known their disposition to the Lords of the Confederacy, they may trace the Roots to the Tree and if their minds are clean and they are obedient and promise to obey the wishes of the Confederate Council, they shall be welcomed to take shelter beneath the Tree of the Long Leaves."


Therefore it is a cultural pattern that we embrace justice and truth and have a certain set of law to enforce that truth and justice prevail.

In the same way, the Iroquois people embraced their elders, who they elected to be the leaders of councils that would make the decisions. Their elders held on to specific knowledge that was beneficial to building the community, and the young learned and expanded on that knowledge. The aspect of family was important to the Iroquois people too, and it's important to note that in both of these specific cultures that laid the foundations of our current societal natural rights, the role of the mother was very powerful.

Kemet and Iroquois shared matriarchal and matrilineality tendencies, meaning that the mother, the woman, had more political influence over men in the sense that they had created mathematics, they had created astronomy, they had created a variety of subjects simply by being women and their ability to bring life into being. The natural right of the mother being another right, that the mother and woman holds knowledge that the male cannot, that they have invented what the man could not, existed in both societies. This being significant because both societies influenced directly the influence of our current, and if to take the pattern of what 'natural' rights should be, it makes the most sense to look historically as to what they have been over time and what things we have thought to be true as a society that have spanned thousands of years.

 

[LibertyLemming]

war? kindly link me to the congressional declarations of war against yemen, syria, pakistan, ill stop there instead of listing all the countries we are bombing.