When This War Is Over - Palestine Will Be Free

[Shusha]

It's termed: History Revanschism

re·vanch·ism
A policy of seeking to retaliate, especially to recover lost territory

Revanchism, from the French revanche or “revenge”, is the will to reverse territorial losses following war or social upheaval. The term originated in the 1870s, after the Franco Prussian War, for French nationalists who wanted to revenge the defeat and the reparations extracted by Germany, and to reclaim the lost territories of Alsace-Lorraine.

So let's see if I've got this right. Israel, which controlled Gaza, purposely decided to withdraw from Gaza, in the hopes that this withdrawal would make the people of Gaza miserable enough that they would elect a terrorist government, who would then spend the next twenty years destroying Gaza, which would make the people of Gaza and the terrorist government mad enough to attack Israel and slaughter as many Jews as possible while promising to do this again and again and again, which would somehow permit Israel to take back Gaza, which it had already controlled. And the reason for this is that Jews are Nazis.

Oh. This explanation makes so much more sense than the Jewish people just wanting self-determination in a portion of their traditional, indigenous, historical homeland. /sarcasm

 

[Kruska]

So let's see if I've got this right. Israel, which controlled Gaza, purposely decided to withdraw from Gaza, in the hopes that this withdrawal would make the people of Gaza miserable enough that they would elect a terrorist government, who would then spend the next twenty years destroying Gaza, which would make the people of Gaza and the terrorist government mad enough to attack Israel and slaughter as many Jews as possible while promising to do this again and again and again, which would somehow permit Israel to take back Gaza, which it had already controlled. And the reason for this is that Jews are Nazis.

Oh. This explanation makes so much more sense than the Jewish people just wanting self-determination in a portion of their traditional, indigenous, historical homeland. /sarcasm

Who are you trying to kid with your false claims?

Being forced to draw out of Gaza (due to Israels illegal settlement policy in Gaza being condemned - even by the USA) and then keeping it economically unsustainable - is supposed to be validated as a good deed and effort towards peace??

Furthermore Hamas was formed due to Israels refusal to acknowledge a sovereign Palestinian State and their rejection towards acquitting to a Palestinian right towards self-determination. - Something that the PLO had acknowledged and signed in 1988 in regards to Israel.

If those Zionist would have had any true intentions towards peace - they would have supported the PLO to get rid of Hamas - in the first place, whilst acknowledging a Sovereign Palestinian State in the West-Bank - in view of the pre-6 day war territory, at the same time.

 

[Roudy]

Much depends on Israel's internal policy. If it follows through its policy of 'bantustanization' of the West Bank, if it allows religious Orthodoxes to make some rash movements in Jerusalem - then no 'deradicalization' is possible.

Hezbollah shows great restraint so far. Anyway, it doesn't look like the second front at all that many anticipated to happen.

Iran? It is pure illusion to believe Israel can deal with Iran by itself. Or you expect the US to wage another war in the ME?

Hezbollah backed out because it knew based on past experience that Israel is capable of turning Lebanon into rubble. Israel doesn’t need to ”deal with Iran”, the first bomb that is dropped on a mullah‘s head, the Iranian people themselves will take over. The Islamic regime cannot both fight a strong external enemy like Israel, and an internal revolution by its own people against them.

 

[ESay]

I would state that you are very wrong or at minimum totally underestimate these condemnations and sanctions in regards to Russia. If not for UN, EU, NATO members sanctions - any country would be free to supply to Russia as to whatever they need. Especially modern military related stuff. Not to mention Russia's own export income via trade. Russia is only able to hold onto its gains - due to being able to sacrifice 3-4 times the amount of men then Ukraine. (for how long?).

As for Israel - their entire economy (aka existence) depends onto free-trade and EU (especially Germany) favorite and subsidized trade agreements. Without that, their goods are non-competitive on the world market. Not to mention those billions they receive every year from the USA, and Israeli companies investing into other countries economies - foremost via shareholding and investment funds. Thus freezing Israeli assets in foreign countries - and the entire Israeli cash-flow is gone.

As long as Israeli's are able to make a good living - why should they oppose their Zionist government - or be willing to negotiate on reasonable terms with the Palestinians? On the contra - the world since 1948 till yesterday, has supported knowingly or unknowingly the Zionist policy.

Imagine Nazis having been supported by the world - especially the USA for nearly 75 years - in their quest to "protect" Germans in Europe and foremost to regain territory that they used to own, control and reign over some 2000 years ago (promised to them by Wotan - later by the Roman Church) before these cursed Romans, Huns, Magyars, Mongols, Swedes, French, Polish, Czech, British, etc. etc. stole it away from them, murdering and persecuting them, and thus forcing millions of Germans to immigrate to the USA and elsewhere.

And upon Germany "rightfully" displacing millions of Poles - these damn Arabs ahh.... French and British even declared war upon Germany and attacked them, those "Bastards". Luckily the Nazis were able to beat them off - but these Polish and French animals keep forming resistance groups murdering innocent Germans, incl. women and kids. But thank God the world is turning a blind eye and the USA keeps sending billions. The USA also immediately recognized Germany's annexation of the Poland Heights, the annexation of Sudetenland (parts of Czechoslovakia - aka Southern Lebanon) and that Germany's new capital will be Prague.

The German "Holy" Roman Empire

View attachment 879572


- it's obvious to Nazis, that Germans have a God given right to reclaim this territory and to protect it's people against those terrorist bastards and neighbor counties trying to deny it to them, and even murdering German civilians.

And that's exactly, as to what Zionism is about.

And therefore they need to be sanctioned and embargoed.

Yeah, it seems I should correct myself. We should put the economic sanctions on one side, and some political resolutions ('condemnations') on the other. Obviously, the sanctions were and are needed as a tool for deterrence of Russia. And the EU played a prominent role in that.

At the same time, international organizations (non purely 'Western' ones) created for preserving global or regional stability - such as the UN or OSCE - proved to be quite useless. Moreover, the UN can't play any role in that because of Russia having a veto right in the UNSC.

I agree that Israel should learn how to deal peacefully with its neighbours. If you apply a mad dog tactic, you can't expect anything than a stick in return. I don't rule out that Israel may face some economic pressure from the West in the future. I don't want it to compare with South Africa, because all that movements for justice ended quite bad for the Whites and the country as a whole, but nothing can be excluded.

 

[ESay]

Conquer? Hmmm. Why do you choose that terminology?

You can choose any word you like. What I wanted to say was quite simple - Israel can't wage and win a war against the entire region. Unless it expects some bigger countries to do it for them, of course. But even in this case the win isn't so obvious.

Israel should learn how to live peacefully with its neighbours. The only viable way to guarantee Israel's security is military and economic alliance with the Arab countries. And to achieve this, some un-trivial decisions are required, not just punching a dead horse named 'Two state solution'.

 

[ESay]

Hezbollah backed out because it knew based on past experience that Israel is capable of turning Lebanon into rubble. Israel doesn’t need to ”deal with Iran”, the first bomb that is dropped on a mullah‘s head, the Iranian people themselves will take over. The Islamic regime cannot both fight a strong external enemy like Israel, and an internal revolution by its own people against them.

It is the easiest way. To achieve your goals you should be prepared for the hardest one.

 

[Shusha]

Being forced to draw out of Gaza (due to Israels illegal settlement policy in Gaza being condemned - even by the USA) and then keeping it economically unsustainable - is supposed to be validated as a good deed and effort towards peace??

(Well, I call bullshit on the forced, part but..) Yes. Of course it was an effort towards peace. Give me a break. The POINT of sovereignty (Statehood) is self-determination and independence. That is the END GOAL. Unilateral withdrawal from territory with no peace treaty, no negotiation, no agreement even where the borders are between one State and the nascent State, so as not to interfere with the development of that (hopeful) State's self-determination and independence is the furthest a State can possibly move towards peace. There are no steps after that. Renouncing one's claim to territory is the end of the line. There is no where else to go after that.

Furthermore Hamas was formed due to Israels refusal to acknowledge a sovereign Palestinian State and their rejection towards acquitting to a Palestinian right towards self-determination. - Something that the PLO had acknowledged and signed in 1988 in regards to Israel.

Israel DID acknowledge the PLO's status as the representatives of the people of Palestine in their goal of self-determination and to establish a State of Palestine in the letters of understanding leading up to the Oslo Accords and then the Oslo Accords themselves, which acknowledged an Interim Government and a process towards a peace treaty (which is how wars are ended and territories delineated and confirmed by both parties). It is disingenuous of you to say that Israel failed to do this.

If those Zionist would have had any true intentions towards peace - they would have supported the PLO to get rid of Hamas - in the first place, whilst acknowledging a Sovereign Palestinian State in the West-Bank - in view of the pre-6 day war territory, at the same time.

Oh please. I am so very, very tired of the demands on Israel to fix ALL the problems of Palestinian self-determination, as though the Palestinians and their governments have neither choice nor responsibility. You are arguing that the PLO was incapable of bringing about Palestinian independence and governing an independent State of Palestine. You will get no argument from me on that point.

I am also so very, very tired of this notion that the Palestinian people, and their governments, are utterly incapable of making choices other than to perpetrate the most brutal, inhumane violence. It is so fantastically disrespectful of the humanity of the Palestinian and Gazan people to paint them with those colors. There are so very. many. other. choices. Gaza. can. make.

Many have suggested, moving forward from today, the exact same thing that you are suggesting: that Israel support the PA in forming a new government in Gaza. Thoughts?

 

[Shusha]

You can choose any word you like. What I wanted to say was quite simple - Israel can't wage and win a war against the entire region. Unless it expects some bigger countries to do it for them, of course. But even in this case the win isn't so obvious.

Israel has no interest in waging war against anyone who doesn't wage war with her. Israel is, and has only ever, operated from the perspective of security for her citizens and her sovereignty. Which is why I felt that "conquer" was inappropriate. Israel needs to dismantle Hamas. Israel might need to dismantle the PA, if it comes to it, and it seems headed that direction. Israel needs to contain Lebanon, which she can do. And Iran is a global problem which needs to be addressed on a wider scale. Agree? Disagree? Why?

Israel should learn how to live peacefully with its neighbours.

Rather than respond to this, I'd like to offer you the opportunity to explain further what you mean. How, exactly, must Israel change? Be precise. Include the context of Israel's neighbors who are certainly not living peacefully with her.

The only viable way to guarantee Israel's security is military and economic alliance with the Arab countries. And to achieve this, some un-trivial decisions are required, not just punching a dead horse named 'Two state solution'.

The two-state solution ship has sailed into the Here Be Dragons after October 7. I think we agree on that.

 

[Kruska]

(Well, I call bullshit on the forced, part but..) Yes. Of course it was an effort towards peace. Give me a break. The POINT of sovereignty (Statehood) is self-determination and independence. That is the END GOAL. Unilateral withdrawal from territory with no peace treaty, no negotiation, no agreement even where the borders are between one State and the nascent State, so as not to interfere with the development of that (hopeful) State's self-determination and independence is the furthest a State can possibly move towards peace. There are no steps after that. Renouncing one's claim to territory is the end of the line. There is no where else to go after that.

You can call it what you like. The Fact remains, Israel did not voluntarily pull out from Gaza, but were pressured/forced, foremost by the USA to pull out. Obama had clearly told them amongst other issues - no more US$.

Israel DID acknowledge the PLO's status as the representatives of the people of Palestine

Acknowledging a negotiation partner - is not acknowledging a Sovereign State nor a peoples right towards self-determination.
Israel clearly sabotaged the Oslo Accord initiative - by demanding additional territory in the West-bank and at the same time insisting onto the preservation onto several Jewish enclaves - already settled illegally.

That the PLO also wasn't willing to negotiate further, upon those Israeli demands is also correct.

Oh please. I am so very, very tired of the demands on Israel to fix ALL the problems of Palestinian self-determination, as though the Palestinians and their governments have neither choice nor responsibility.

The PLO sees it as it's primary responsibility to represent it's peoples rightful demand for self-determination and thus a Sovereign State.
Jewish - in vast majority, illegal immigrants - led by a Zionist policy had caused this entire issue - not the Palestinians and not the Arab neighbors and Egypt.

If you can't even acquit to such a known FACT - then what is the point of discussion towards this topic with you?

You are arguing that the PLO was incapable of bringing about Palestinian independence and governing an independent State of Palestine. You will get no argument from me on that point.

I never stated that.

I am also so very, very tired of this notion that the Palestinian people, and their governments, are utterly incapable of making choices other than to perpetrate the most brutal, inhumane violence.

It's simply retaliation onto what Israel aka the Zionist have done to them latest in 1948 till today. Whilst refusing to acquit towards a sovereign Palestinian State. It is understood that an IDF airstrike killing 50 Palestinians, is sold as being human by you, in reference to some Hamas or PLO fellow blowing himself up and killing 5 Israelis, or gunning down 2 Israelis at a bus-stop.

Murder is murder - at least to me. And Israels murder actions since 1948 are so far 10+ times higher, the those committed by e.g. Hamas or the PLO, etc.
You should know that Semites love and live for that known principle - an eye for an eye, a ...... - so what do you expect?

That e.g. Hamas has certainly not done the Palestinian cause any favor via murdering and raping Jews and others is understood. And they need to be punished aka prosecuted for this. And Hamas is neither punished nor prosecuted via the IDF bombing the shit out of Gaza and thus murdering thousands of innocent Palestinians.

Many have suggested, moving forward from today, the exact same thing that you are suggesting: that Israel support the PA in forming a new government in Gaza. Thoughts?

Let a UN peace-force handle this - via the USA giving up it's veto crap and thus forcing out the IDF from Gaza. I served long enough in the Armed Forces and in UN/NATO missions, to know that a 15,000 strong UN Peace-force, outfitted with a necessary/appropriate Mandate and economic measures, thus supported by Gaza Palestinians and the PLO - can disarm and nullify Hamas within 6 -12 month - without flattening the place and killing 15000+ civilians in two month.

Whilst at the same time Israel acknowledges the West-bank as a sovereign Palestinian state - pulls out ALL illegal settlements and returns to Tel Aviv as it's capital within 6-12 month.

If Israel then still pursues its illegal annexation of the Golan heights, parts of Southern Lebanon, constantly attacks sovereign countries, such as Syria and Lebanon - I don't care, since that is not a Palestinian issue.

However such a solution is absolutely not in the interest of the Zionists and Netanyahu. - guess why?

 

[MJB12741]

You can call it what you like. The Fact remains, Israel did not voluntarily pull out from Gaza, but were pressured/forced, foremost by the USA to pull out. Obama had clearly told them amongst other issues - no more US$.

Acknowledging a negotiation partner - is not acknowledging a Sovereign State nor a peoples right towards self-determination.
Israel clearly sabotaged the Oslo Accord initiative - by demanding additional territory in the West-bank and at the same time insisting onto the preservation onto several Jewish enclaves - already settled illegally.

That the PLO also wasn't willing to negotiate further, upon those Israeli demands is also correct.

The PLO sees it as it's primary responsibility to represent it's peoples rightful demand for self-determination and thus a Sovereign State.
Jewish - in vast majority, illegal immigrants - led by a Zionist policy had caused this entire issue - not the Palestinians and not the Arab neighbors and Egypt.

If you can't even acquit to such a known FACT - then what is the point of discussion towards this topic with you?


I never stated that.

It's simply retaliation onto what Israel aka the Zionist have done to them latest in 1948 till today. Whilst refusing to acquit towards a sovereign Palestinian State. It is understood that an IDF airstrike killing 50 Palestinians, is sold as being human by you, in reference to some Hamas or PLO fellow blowing himself up and killing 5 Israelis, or gunning down 2 Israelis at a bus-stop.

Murder is murder - at least to me. And Israels murder actions since 1948 are so far 10+ times higher, the those committed by e.g. Hamas or the PLO, etc.
You should know that Semites love and live for that known principle - an eye for an eye, a ...... - so what do you expect?

That e.g. Hamas has certainly not done the Palestinian cause any favor via murdering and raping Jews and others is understood. And they need to be punished aka prosecuted for this. And Hamas is neither punished nor prosecuted via the IDF bombing the shit out of Gaza and thus murdering thousands of innocent Palestinians.

Let a UN peace-force handle this - via the USA giving up it's veto crap and thus forcing out the IDF from Gaza. I served long enough in the Armed Forces and in UN/NATO missions, to know that a 15,000 strong UN Peace-force, outfitted with a necessary/appropriate Mandate and economic measures, thus supported by Gaza Palestinians and the PLO - can disarm and nullify Hamas within 6 -12 month - without flattening the place and killing 15000+ civilians in two month.

Whilst at the same time Israel acknowledges the West-bank as a sovereign Palestinian state - pulls out ALL illegal settlements and returns to Tel Aviv as it's capital within 6-12 month.

If Israel then still pursues its illegal annexation of the Golan heights, parts of Southern Lebanon, constantly attacks sovereign countries, such as Syria and Lebanon - I don't care, since that is not a Palestinian issue.

However such a solution is absolutely not in the interest of the Zionists and Netanyahu. - guess why?

Good news for you. Like I said in the opening post, when this war is over Palestine will be free from all Israel has done for them since 1948.

 

[ESay]

Israel needs to dismantle Hamas. Israel might need to dismantle the PA, if it comes to it, and it seems headed that direction. Israel needs to contain Lebanon, which she can do. And Iran is a global problem which needs to be addressed on a wider scale. Agree? Disagree? Why

Yes, agree. Though, what it will offer instead of the PA and how Iran should be dealt with are questions that have no answers.

Rather than respond to this, I'd like to offer you the opportunity to explain further what you mean. How, exactly, must Israel change? Be precise. Include the context of Israel's neighbors who are certainly not living peacefully with her

I can't be precise here. Of course I can indulge into my fantasies how one state for two nations should be created; equality, fraternity, prosperity and other pathetic things, but what for? We both know that it isn't possible.

As I said above, I don't think this war is the last one. And too little can be done with that.

The two-state solution ship has sailed into the Here Be Dragons after October 7. I think we agree on that

This ship sailed much earlier. After Israeli settlement policy in the WB and East Jerusalem annexation.

 

[Shusha]

Acknowledging a negotiation partner - is not acknowledging a Sovereign State nor a peoples right towards self-determination.

Acknowledging the right to self-government (self-determination) is included in the documents, as previously noted. I agree that Israel did not and has not acknowledged Palestine as a Sovereign State. Palestine, to the current day, has limited recognition, in part because it has not (yet) met the criteria of being a State.

Israel clearly sabotaged the Oslo Accord initiative - by demanding additional territory in the West-bank and at the same time insisting onto the preservation onto several Jewish enclaves - already settled illegally.

The letters of understanding, and the Oslo Accords, require negotiation on the final status of several important issues:

Letter from Yasser Arafat to Yitzhak Rabin, Prime Minister of Israel, September 9, 1993 (excerpt):
The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.

Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements - ARTICLE V
TRANSITIONAL PERIOD AND PERMANENT STATUS NEGOTIATIONS
1. The five-year transitional period will begin upon the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and Jericho area.
2. Permanent status negotiations will commence as soon as possible, but not later than the beginning of the third year of the interim period, between the Government of Israel and the Palestinian people's representatives.
3. It is understood that these negotiations shall cover remaining issues, including: Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and cooperation with other neighbours, and other issues of common interest.
4. The two parties agree that the outcome of the permanent status negotiations should not be prejudiced or preempted by agreements reached for the interim period.

The PLO (later the PA) was offered, in negotiations, nearly the entirety of the territory, land swaps, removal of some settlements, even Jerusalem (!). They refused both the offer and further negotiations.

That the PLO also wasn't willing to negotiate further, upon those Israeli demands is also correct.

Exactly.

Jewish - in vast majority, illegal immigrants - led by a Zionist policy had caused this entire issue - not the Palestinians and not the Arab neighbors and Egypt.

If you can't even acquit to such a known FACT - then what is the point of discussion towards this topic with you?

Even the PLO/PA has recognized Israel and the right of the Jewish people to self-determination, sovereignty and Statehood. It appears we agree that BOTH the Jewish people and the Arab Palestinian people have these rights. Do we not? However, your continued efforts to undermine the Jewish rights, by using inflammatory and accusatory language, as above, suggests that you aren't fully committed to this.

And again, I am so very tired of Israel being required to take responsibility for the conflict between TWO people who BOTH seek self-determination and sovereignty over traditional territory, as though the Palestinians have no choices and no responsibility. It is a fundamental denial of Jewish rights that you would grant to the Palestinians.

It's simply retaliation onto what Israel aka the Zionist have done to them latest in 1948 till today.

There. are. other. choices.

Let a UN peace-force handle this - via the USA giving up it's veto crap and thus forcing out the IDF from Gaza. I served long enough in the Armed Forces and in UN/NATO missions, to know that a 15,000 strong UN Peace-force, outfitted with a necessary/appropriate Mandate and economic measures, thus supported by Gaza Palestinians and the PLO - can disarm and nullify Hamas within 6 -12 month - without flattening the place and killing 15000+ civilians in two month.

Okay. So back to a Mandate with a UN peace-keeping force. Tell me more. Who would be the governing Mandate State(s)? How would Israel's security be guaranteed and enforced, both in the 6-12 month disarming period, and in the longer Mandate period? How long would the Mandate last? How, and with whom, would final peace treaty terms with Israel be determined?

Further, I am curious if you believe this to be a long-term, permanent solution to all global conflicts. It seems that essentially you are suggesting that sovereign States waive their right to actions of military self-defense in lieu of an international peace-keeping forces, lengthier disarming times (which reduces risk to the civilians of the perpetrator, but increases risk of harm to the civilians of the target), more hands-on (temporary) replacement governments.

Whilst at the same time Israel acknowledges the West-bank as a sovereign Palestinian state - pulls out ALL illegal settlements and returns to Tel Aviv as it's capital within 6-12 month.

Yeah, no. Final status is not pre-determined, but needs to be negotiated. Why is that so unreasonable? Especially since that is the agreement signed by both peoples?

The Jewish people have at least as much right to the Holy places and Jerusalem, as the Palestinians do. (Personally, I think the Jewish people have MORE right to these places for many reasons, not the least of which is they are the only ones who provide equal access to all, but I respect the concession to equality). The final borders between Israel and Palestine need to be drawn through negotiations. There should be no forced ethnic cleansing of either peoples, and there is no need for it (unless you want to admit that the Arabs are incapable of living in peace with Jews in Palestine).

 

[Shusha]

I can't be precise here. Of course I can indulge into my fantasies how one state for two nations should be created; equality, fraternity, prosperity and other pathetic things, but what for? We both know that it isn't possible.

Fair enough. I was taken aback by your statement. Again, tired of all this, "If only Israel would do better" crap, with nearly no one suggesting that the Palestinian Arabs "get along with their neighbors".

Edited to add: I do think it is a useful exercise to be precise about what Israel (OR Palestinians) should be doing.

And we agree that it isn't possible. The problem being is that nothing seems possible at the moment.

 

[Kruska]

Acknowledging the right to self-government (self-determination) is included in the documents, as previously noted. I agree that Israel did not and has not acknowledged Palestine as a Sovereign State. Palestine, to the current day, has limited recognition, in part because it has not (yet) met the criteria of being a State.

Palestine aka the State, comprising of Gaza and the West-bank has been recognized already by 138 of the 193 UN member-states.
It is understood that ISRAEL is NOT one of them.

Mapped: Recognition of Palestine by Country

As of November 2023, 138 of the 193 UN members recognized Palestine. This map shows the recognition of the State of Palestine by country.

www.visualcapitalist.com

The letters of understanding, and the Oslo Accords, require negotiation on the final status of several important issues:

There is "nothing" to negotiate about in regards to the territory. The borders aka the exact territory of Gaza and the West-bank are known, to both Parties, and it's the Palestinians, that do not "demand" anything whatsoever on top of that - ONLY ISRAEL demands territory that doesn't belong to them, since they have continued to illegally settle in the West-Bank - despite the PLO having acknowledged the State of Israel and it's right towards self-determination in 1988 - since then Israels policy (its thank-you) was to send 600-700,000 illegal settlers into the West-bank.

Why do you think HAMAS came up? - because they viewed the PLO to be incompetent towards guaranteeing a sovereign Palestine. Since Israel had kept on screwing the PLO since 1988 till today. And the voters in Gaza agreed with Hamas point of view towards the PLO in 2015.

However, your continued efforts to undermine the Jewish rights, by using inflammatory and accusatory language, as above, suggests that you aren't fully committed to this.

I do not undermine Jewish/Israels rights at all - What are you talking about?
It is you - who constantly ignores Palestinian rights, very latest since 1988, and falsely accuse the Palestinians/PLO of not being committed towards a peaceful solution - that has been INTENTIONALLY, nonstop violated and sabotaged by the Zionists. See above illegal settlers.

And again, I am so very tired of Israel being required to take responsibility for the conflict between TWO people who BOTH seek self-determination and sovereignty over traditional territory, as though the Palestinians have no choices and no responsibility. It is a fundamental denial of Jewish rights that you would grant to the Palestinians.

Read up again my above statement - either you lack a certain degree of intelligence - or you are deliberately playing people for stupid.
Thus wasting other peoples time.

Okay. So back to a Mandate with a UN peace-keeping force. Tell me more. Who would be the governing Mandate State(s)? How would Israel's security be guaranteed and enforced,

All this can be achieved - any competent military aka nation, contributing UN-troops and the leadership of such a UN mission knows how to do this. And I am not going to waste my time going into details as long as the above "blaming issues" between the two of us isn't clear.

The Jewish people have at least as much right to the Holy places and Jerusalem, as the Palestinians do.

I have not seen the PLO rejecting these "requests" at all. However they do rightfully reject Israels deceleration towards Jerusalem being the new Israeli capital.

The final borders between Israel and Palestine need to be drawn through negotiations.

See my first statement onto this topic. There is "nothing" to negotiate about in regards to the territory.
The only issue that needs to be negotiated - is the timeline needed for Israel to hand over it's illegal settlements and to pull out it's 700,000 illegal settlers. (IMO - 6-12 month, would be a very gracious period).

If the PLO would have a superior Armed Forces like Israel, and possess the same mindset - they might also just simply state:
We will give warning, and all those not moving within a week will be bombed.

There should be no forced ethnic cleansing of either peoples, and there is no need for it (unless you want to admit that the Arabs are incapable of living in peace with Jews in Palestine).

Funny person aren't you? - already in preparation for the Zionist demand; - we want the illegal settlement in the West-bank to remain.
First of all a non-justifiable demand by the Zionists, since it's settlements are illegal, clearly aimed at continuing to sabotage a peaceful solution - and a ridiculous/ludicrous demand by the Zionists, taking the existing hate, nurtured in 75 years by both sides into account.

Again, I am tired of all this, "If only Palestinians would do better" crap, with almost no one suggesting that the Israeli's "need to get along with their neighbors". Since it was illegal Jewish immigrants who brought themselves in, and kicked off this whole shit. Robbing the local populations land, via forcing out the local population in 1948, whilst additionally, illegally annexing other neighboring nations territory.

I stand by a previous post of mine:
There will never be a free Palestine - since the Zionists will never permit it.

As such any knowledgeable person understands; - there is no such thing as a peaceful solution whilst the Zionist are running Israel. They will continue to enforce the creation of organizations such as Hamas - to ensure Israel has "a right towards self-defense".

Therefore all we need to do is; wait for the next 10 years to see for ourselves if those dirty bombs will go off solely in Israel or everywhere.

BTW - not that I would believe in this Hocus Pocus, but Nostradamus must have studied Judaism and Zionism material extensively, and it's nuclear fission potential, when it comes into contact with Islam material - to having placed his end of the world bet, aka prophecy onto the Middle-East.

Have a nice weekend.

 

[surada]

So let's see if I've got this right. Israel, which controlled Gaza, purposely decided to withdraw from Gaza, in the hopes that this withdrawal would make the people of Gaza miserable enough that they would elect a terrorist government, who would then spend the next twenty years destroying Gaza, which would make the people of Gaza and the terrorist government mad enough to attack Israel and slaughter as many Jews as possible while promising to do this again and again and again, which would somehow permit Israel to take back Gaza, which it had already controlled. And the reason for this is that Jews are Nazis.

Oh. This explanation makes so much more sense than the Jewish people just wanting self-determination in a portion of their traditional, indigenous, historical homeland. /sarcasm

They have found oil and gas fields in Gaza's coastal waters.

 

[MJB12741]

Oil & gas found in Gaza. Yea. Israel should thank Hamas for starting this conflict.

 

[Roudy]

They have found oil and gas fields in Gaza's coastal waters.

You always lie about everything. it isn’t in “Gaza‘s coastal waters”. But then again, all of Israel is considered Palestinian coastal waters. From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free, you will butcher every Jew you see.

 

[MJB12741]

You always lie about everything. it isn’t in “Gaza‘s coastal waters”. But then again, all of Israel is considered Palestinian coastal waters. From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free, you will butcher every Jew you see.

The Hamas war attack on Israel has given Israel a winner take all opportunity.

 

[Shusha]

Why do you think HAMAS came up? - because they viewed the PLO to be incompetent towards guaranteeing a sovereign Palestine.

The PLO/PA IS incompetent towards guaranteeing a sovereign Palestine. Hamas is not wrong about this. Hamas is equally incompetent. Do you begin to see the problem? It takes competence to bring about a sovereign State. Not to mention the will to do it, investing in the success of your citizens, rather than investing in luxury homes for your self. This is not Israel "screwing over" the right of Palestinians to self-determination, their own incompetent governments are doing just fine.

I do not undermine Jewish/Israels rights at all - What are you talking about?

I'm talking about this:

Since it was illegal Jewish immigrants who brought themselves in, and kicked off this whole shit. Robbing the local populations land, via forcing out the local population in 1948, whilst additionally, illegally annexing other neighboring nations territory.

And this:

There will never be a free Palestine - since the Zionists will never permit it.

And this:

As such any knowledgeable person understands; - there is no such thing as a peaceful solution whilst the Zionist are running Israel. They will continue to enforce the creation of organizations such as Hamas - to ensure Israel has "a right towards self-defense".

The Jewish people are the indigenous peoples in this traditional territory. The Jewish people have lived there, with their specific culture, customs, and traditions for thousands of years. The Jewish people have a recognized right to re-constitute their national home in this traditional territory and have brought that right into reality with a recognized State.

See the difference? (And yes, the Arab Palestinians have those rights as well).

All this can be achieved - any competent military aka nation, contributing UN-troops and the leadership of such a UN mission knows how to do this. And I am not going to waste my time going into details as long as the above "blaming issues" between the two of us isn't clear.

My position: There are two peoples who have equal rights to self-determination and sovereignty in this territory. These two peoples negotiate a mutually satisfactory peace treaty, as equals. This is the existing legal agreement between these two peoples.

Your position: There are two peoples who have (un)equal rights to self-determination and sovereignty in this territory. There must be no negotiation. The borders are already set (which you have not defined, and through some process you have not explained). There are certain places Israel may not have sovereignty over, such as Jerusalem. Israel may not choose her own capital, but must have one assigned to her. All Jews must be removed from territory that will become the State of Palestine. All Arabs must remain in territory in the State of Israel.

See my first statement onto this topic. There is "nothing" to negotiate about in regards to the territory. The borders aka the exact territory of Gaza and the West-bank are known, to both Parties, and it's the Palestinians, that do not "demand" anything whatsoever on top of that - ONLY ISRAEL demands territory that doesn't belong to them,

I strongly disagree with this for several reasons. 1. According to interim agreements between the parties these final borders are to be negotiated. This is a legally-binding contract between the parties. 2. There are no borders between Israel and the nascent State of Palestine. According to the legal precedent of uti possidetis juris, the Mandate for Palestine transfers to the new sovereign with existing administrative borders intact. I believe this to be the correct legal position to take, though I am aware of others, and am willing to discuss. I absolutely reject any "legal" position based on "the 1967 borders", these are simply fallacies.

The only issue that needs to be negotiated - is the timeline needed for Israel to hand over it's illegal settlements and to pull out it's 700,000 illegal settlers. (IMO - 6-12 month, would be a very gracious period).

I have never been able to understand why some people support ethnic cleansing when cleansing Jews, but not Arabs. This is a morally inconsistent position. If Israel can have a mixed population, why can't Palestine? Don't you think that living peacefully side-by-side in both countries will have a net positive future effect in the Middle East?

If the PLO would have a superior Armed Forces like Israel, and possess the same mindset - they might also just simply state:
We will give warning, and all those not moving within a week will be bombed.

Again, this is morally inconsistent. Well, it is at BEST morally inconsistent. At worse, it's well, you know. Why is bombing (deliberately targeting civilians) Jews okay, but bombing (even when not deliberately targeting civilians) Arabs is not? Isn't there some sort of alternate and more peaceful way of expelling people from their homes?

Therefore all we need to do is; wait for the next 10 years to see for ourselves if those dirty bombs will go off solely in Israel or everywhere.

Wow.

Have a nice weekend.

You too.

 

[MJB12741]

The PLO/PA IS incompetent towards guaranteeing a sovereign Palestine. Hamas is not wrong about this. Hamas is equally incompetent. Do you begin to see the problem? It takes competence to bring about a sovereign State. Not to mention the will to do it, investing in the success of your citizens, rather than investing in luxury homes for your self. This is not Israel "screwing over" the right of Palestinians to self-determination, their own incompetent governments are doing just fine.

I'm talking about this:

And this:

And this:

The Jewish people are the indigenous peoples in this traditional territory. The Jewish people have lived there, with their specific culture, customs, and traditions for thousands of years. The Jewish people have a recognized right to re-constitute their national home in this traditional territory and have brought that right into reality with a recognized State.

See the difference? (And yes, the Arab Palestinians have those rights as well).

My position: There are two peoples who have equal rights to self-determination and sovereignty in this territory. These two peoples negotiate a mutually satisfactory peace treaty, as equals. This is the existing legal agreement between these two peoples.

Your position: There are two peoples who have (un)equal rights to self-determination and sovereignty in this territory. There must be no negotiation. The borders are already set (which you have not defined, and through some process you have not explained). There are certain places Israel may not have sovereignty over, such as Jerusalem. Israel may not choose her own capital, but must have one assigned to her. All Jews must be removed from territory that will become the State of Palestine. All Arabs must remain in territory in the State of Israel.

I strongly disagree with this for several reasons. 1. According to interim agreements between the parties these final borders are to be negotiated. This is a legally-binding contract between the parties. 2. There are no borders between Israel and the nascent State of Palestine. According to the legal precedent of uti possidetis juris, the Mandate for Palestine transfers to the new sovereign with existing administrative borders intact. I believe this to be the correct legal position to take, though I am aware of others, and am willing to discuss. I absolutely reject any "legal" position based on "the 1967 borders", these are simply fallacies.

I have never been able to understand why some people support ethnic cleansing when cleansing Jews, but not Arabs. This is a morally inconsistent position. If Israel can have a mixed population, why can't Palestine? Don't you think that living peacefully side-by-side in both countries will have a net positive future effect in the Middle East?

Again, this is morally inconsistent. Well, it is at BEST morally inconsistent. At worse, it's well, you know. Why is bombing (deliberately targeting civilians) Jews okay, but bombing (even when not deliberately targeting civilians) Arabs is not? Isn't there some sort of alternate and more peaceful way of expelling people from their homes?

Wow.

You too.

Both the PLO & PA are incompetent in helping to provide better lives for Palestinians in a Palestinian state. First priority for both of them is the annihilation of Israel. And that goal has not changed since 'ole Yasser.