When This War Is Over - Palestine Will Be Free

[Lisa558]

Both the PLO & PA are incompetent in helping to provide better lives for Palestinians in a Palestinian state. First priority for both of them is the annihilation of Israel. And that goal has not changed since 'ole Yasser.

That’s the whole problem, which the antisemites slough over: Palestinians were offered their own state on a number of occasions, but they via their leaders turned them down because that is not the goal.

To think that a 2- state solution is a possibility NOW, after the Muslim terrorists massacred as many innocent Jews as they could find in ways to cause them the most agony as possible, and where 75% of the Palestinians support it, just screams naivety, at best.

 

[Shusha]

Both the PLO & PA are incompetent in helping to provide better lives for Palestinians in a Palestinian state. First priority for both of them is the annihilation of Israel. And that goal has not changed since 'ole Yasser.

Exactly. What the Palestinians need most is a leader with the will to actually build a State. One who is strong enough to stand up for their own people's future, as well as stand against any of their own people who commit violence. Those people should be in Palestinian jails, not Israeli ones.

 

[Lisa558]

Exactly. What the Palestinians needs most is a leader with the will to actually build a State. One who is strong enough to stand up for their own people's future, as well as stand against any of their own people who commit violence. Those people should be in Palestinian jails, not Israeli ones.

After what happened on October 7th, we are a long way from Israel welcoming a Palestinian state. Most Palestinians support the HAMAS terrorism and the goal to eradicate Israel, and until they are “unbrainwashed” from their wish to kill Jews, any talk of a solution is premature.

 

[Shusha]

After what happened on October 7th, we are a long way from Israel welcoming a Palestinian state. Most Palestinians support the HAMAS terrorism and the goal to eradicate Israel, and until they are “unbrainwashed” from their wish to kill Jews, any talk of a solution is premature.

Oh, I know. I believe I said so quite strongly upthread. I don't think the world quite understands how deep the shift is in the Israeli (and the Jewish) people that day. I don't see any chance of a State of Palestine in the foreseeable future.

But the one thing that could change that is a leader in the West Bank with the nerve to stand publically against Hamas and their brutal violence, put the notion of "resistance" to bed, welcome Jewish residents into the West Bank and get this peace thing done. Is such a thing possible?

 

[Lisa558]

Oh, I know. I believe I said so quite strongly upthread. I don't think the world quite understands how deep the shift is in the Israeli (and the Jewish) people that day. I don't see any chance of a State of Palestine in the foreseeable future.

But the one thing that could change that is a leader in the West Bank with the nerve to stand publically against Hamas and their brutal violence, put the notion of "resistance" to bed, welcome Jewish residents into the West Bank and get this peace thing done. Is such a thing possible?

I don’t think it is possible due to the anti-Israel sentiment being created by the pro-Palestinian liberals. Any strong Arab leader in the West Bank who would welcome Jewish residents in would be assassinated, by his own people, and his murder cheered by the leftists at the Ivy League colleges. That’s how bad it is.

If you are talking about 15 years from now….maybe.

 

[Shusha]

I don’t think it is possible due to the anti-Israel sentiment being created by the pro-Palestinian liberals. Any strong Arab leader in the West Bank who would welcome Jewish residents in would be assassinated, by his own people, and his murder cheered by the leftists at the Ivy League colleges. That’s how bad it is.

If you are talking about 15 years from now….maybe.

Ha. We can't even find one HERE on this message board.

 

[Lisa558]

Ha. We can't even find one HERE on this message board.

Sad, but true.

 

[MJB12741]

Exactly. What the Palestinians need most is a leader with the will to actually build a State. One who is strong enough to stand up for their own people's future, as well as stand against any of their own people who commit violence. Those people should be in Palestinian jails, not Israeli ones.

Yes. And hard to conceive that since 1948 the Palestinian citizens have never revolted against their leaderships who always found ways to get them massacred even by their own Arab brothers.

 

[Lisa558]

Yes. And hard to conceive that since 1948 the Palestinian citizens have never revolted against their leaderships who always found ways to get them massacred even by their own Arab brothers.

Not only don’t they revolt, they SUPPORT them.

 

[MJB12741]

Not only don’t they revolt, they SUPPORT them.

Such being the case it appears the Palestinian citizens deserve what Hamas has done to them making it necesdsary for Israel to retaliate.

 

[Kruska]

The PLO/PA IS incompetent towards guaranteeing a sovereign Palestine. Hamas is not wrong about this. Hamas is equally incompetent. Do you begin to see the problem? It takes competence to bring about a sovereign State. Not to mention the will to do it, investing in the success of your citizens, rather than investing in luxury homes for your self. This is not Israel "screwing over" the right of Palestinians to self-determination, their own incompetent governments are doing just fine.

You are and will continue to twist the facts around.
There is NO sovereign Palestine, because the Zionist together with the USA made and are making sure that it will never happen.

Therefore blaming a political organization such as the PLO for failing to establish a sovereign State and therefore a necessary sustainable economy and society - is simply ridiculous.

And no, Hamas did not originate in the thought that the PLO wouldn't be capable - but solely and only due to the fact that the PLO had recognized Israels right to exist and towards self-determination, whilst Israel has not kept it's side of the bargain - but even continued to increase it's illegal settlement policy. Thus making it easy for Hamas to paint the PLO as being incapable, and selling them off as traitors to the Palestinian cause.

These Hamas fellows, their policy and conviction therefore, are nothing else but Zionists and their policy and conviction.

The Jewish people are the indigenous peoples in this traditional territory. The Jewish people have lived there, with their specific culture, customs, and traditions for thousands of years. The Jewish people have a recognized right to re-constitute their national home in this traditional territory and have brought that right into reality with a recognized State.

This is exactly your, and the Zionists problem - to base and justify a conquest in 1948, onto a 2800 year old self-written book - whilst ignoring the total history of the past 5000+ years, which factually refutes the Zionist claims - not event to mention the absurdity of basing a statehood in 1948 onto such a claim. And this is what places Israel at odds with the entire world.

Since your Zionist mindset is obvious (factually appearing with your first post towards the Israeli-Hamas issue) - a further discussion towards this subject with you is utterly meaningless.

 

[Shusha]

This is exactly your, and the Zionists problem - to base and justify a conquest in 1948, onto a 2800 year old self-written book - whilst ignoring the total history of the past 5000+ years, which factually refutes the Zionist claims - not event to mention the absurdity of basing a statehood in 1948 onto such a claim. And this is what places Israel at odds with the entire world.

Since your Zionist mindset is obvious (factually appearing with your first post towards the Israeli-Hamas issue) - a further discussion towards this subject with you is utterly meaningless.

So, to be absolutely clear here. What part of my claim to Jewish history do you reject?

The part about Jewish history in the land? The part about the distinction of Jewish culture, tradition, ethnic customs? The part about these lands being the place where the Jewish culture originated? The rights of indigenous self-determination in their traditional lands? The part about decolonization and reclamation of lands? The part about return to traditional lands? The part about re-constituting national sovereignty?

This is so very much NOT at odds with the rest of the world. Many of the world's States, especially those formed between the early 1900s and into the late 1900s, are centered around the reclamation of indigenous and local peoples from large, sprawling Empires. Why are the Jewish people the one exception?

 

[Kruska]

So, to be absolutely clear here. What part of my claim to Jewish history do you reject?

EVERYTHING - that has to do with basing a justification onto a self-written book - especially one that brings in a ridiculous timeline of 2000 or 2800 years ago.
And absolutely no one has ever, or is basing "nationalistic" statehood claims, onto a period exceeding a 100 years period - and expects to get away with it.
Only Nazis and Zionists.

 

[Shusha]

EVERYTHING - that has to do with basing a justification onto a self-written book - especially one that brings in a ridiculous timeline of 2000 or 2800 years ago.
And absolutely no one has ever, or is basing "nationalistic" statehood claims, onto a period exceeding a 100 years period - and expects to get away with it.
Only Nazis and Zionists.

For clarity, I am NOT making a religious claim on a "self-written book". I am basing it on the concept of self-determination for indigenous peoples with culture and history on specific traditional territory. If you categorically reject Jewish indigeneity on the traditional territory of the Jewish peoples, as if it doesn't exist, then you are rejecting the entire concept of self-determination except through colonization and conquest and the ability to hold the land. And only a 100 years? Great! Israel done and won, then.

 

[Shusha]

You are and will continue to twist the facts around.
There is NO sovereign Palestine,

Well aware.

because the Zionist together with the USA made and are making sure that it will never happen.

Well, no.

Therefore blaming a political organization such as the PLO for failing to establish a sovereign State and therefore a necessary sustainable economy and society - is simply ridiculous.

Yep. Hard going to blame the government of a wannabe State for failing to produce a State.

 

[Shusha]

(factually appearing with your first post towards the Israeli-Hamas issue)

Wait, my first post, what, in 2015? Should I be impressed that you looked that shit up?

 

[Kruska]

For clarity, I am NOT making a religious claim on a "self-written book".

Then why do you keep on making statements such as:
The Jewish people are the indigenous peoples in this traditional territory. The Jewish people have lived there, with their specific culture, customs, and traditions for thousands of years.

I am basing it on the concept of self-determination for indigenous peoples with culture and history on specific traditional territory. If you categorically reject Jewish indigeneity on the traditional territory of the Jewish peoples, as if it doesn't exist, then you are rejecting the entire concept of self-determination except through colonization and conquest and the ability to hold the land. And only a 100 years? Great! Israel done and won, then.

The Jews are NOT the indigenous people of that area. They simply came-conquered and went - just like any other culture aka civilization on the planet.

There is NO Jewish "culture" - lasted since it was destroyed by the Romans.
There are Jewish people - that have solely identified themselves as a RELIGIOUS group - latest since 150 A.D. - therefore conserving Religious "Rites" and their Faith, and "Religious Rites", do not represent the definition of a culture. And those "cultural" elements that they have - were imposed onto them by those respective countries, where they had lived in, for the past 2000 years.

Never ever heard of a Catholic Culture - but cultures e.g. Kingdoms and their people, adhering towards the e.g. Roman Catholic Churches teachings and their RITES.

 

[Shusha]

Then why do you keep on making statements such as:
The Jewish people are the indigenous peoples in this traditional territory. The Jewish people have lived there, with their specific culture, customs, and traditions for thousands of years.


The Jews are NOT the indigenous people of that area. They simply came-conquered and went - just like any other culture aka civilization on the planet.

There is NO Jewish "culture" - lasted since it was destroyed by the Romans.
There are Jewish people - that have solely identified themselves as a RELIGIOUS group - latest since 150 A.D. - therefore conserving Religious "Rites" and their Faith, and "Religious Rites", do not represent the definition of a culture. And those "cultural" elements that they have - were imposed onto them by those respective countries, where they had lived in, for the past 2000 years.

Never ever heard of a Catholic Culture - but cultures e.g. Kingdoms and their people, adhering towards the e.g. Roman Catholic Churches teachings and their RITES.

Ugh. Where to start?

What is your definition of "culture"? Wouldn't hurt to define "indigenous" as well.

 

[MJB12741]

Then why do you keep on making statements such as:
The Jewish people are the indigenous peoples in this traditional territory. The Jewish people have lived there, with their specific culture, customs, and traditions for thousands of years.


The Jews are NOT the indigenous people of that area. They simply came-conquered and went - just like any other culture aka civilization on the planet.

There is NO Jewish "culture" - lasted since it was destroyed by the Romans.
There are Jewish people - that have solely identified themselves as a RELIGIOUS group - latest since 150 A.D. - therefore conserving Religious "Rites" and their Faith, and "Religious Rites", do not represent the definition of a culture. And those "cultural" elements that they have - were imposed onto them by those respective countries, where they had lived in, for the past 2000 years.

Never ever heard of a Catholic Culture - but cultures e.g. Kingdoms and their people, adhering towards the e.g. Roman Catholic Churches teachings and their RITES.

Huh? There most certainly is "Jewish culture".

Jewish culture is the culture of the Jewish people,[1] from its formation in ancient times until the current age. Judaism itself is not a faith-based religion, but an orthoprax and ethnoreligion, pertaining to deed, practice, and identity.[2] Jewish culture covers many aspects, including religion and worldviews, literature, media, and cinema, art and architecture, cuisine and traditional dress, attitudes to gender, marriage, family, social customs and lifestyles, music and dance.[3] Some elements of Jewish culture come from within Judaism, others from the interaction of Jews with host populations, and others still from the inner social and cultural dynamics of the community. Before the 18th century, religion dominated virtually all aspects of Jewish life, and infused culture. Since the advent of secularization, wholly secular Jewish culture emerged likewise.

 

[Lisa558]

Huh? There most certainly is "Jewish culture".

Jewish culture is the culture of the Jewish people,[1] from its formation in ancient times until the current age. Judaism itself is not a faith-based religion, but an orthoprax and ethnoreligion, pertaining to deed, practice, and identity.[2] Jewish culture covers many aspects, including religion and worldviews, literature, media, and cinema, art and architecture, cuisine and traditional dress, attitudes to gender, marriage, family, social customs and lifestyles, music and dance.[3] Some elements of Jewish culture come from within Judaism, others from the interaction of Jews with host populations, and others still from the inner social and cultural dynamics of the community. Before the 18th century, religion dominated virtually all aspects of Jewish life, and infused culture. Since the advent of secularization, wholly secular Jewish culture emerged likewise.

The person you’re arguing with meets the working definition of antisemitism, as accepted by the U.S. He drew a parallel between murderers who sought to eliminate all Jews based on their religion and Jews who believe in Israel’s right to exist.

Antisemites are now using the word “Zionist” because they think it sounds better than saying ”Jews” are Nazis.