Zone1 Which came first, Christianity or Judaism?

[TruthNotBS]

bad translation----the name MICHAEL is not "WHO IS LIKE GOD"??? it is more like
"HE WHO IS LIKE GOD" and I think that I shall never see, a poem lovely as a tree.
you are doing an idiot job on translating Hebrew----AND trying to base dogma on
aramaic poetry. and written or spoke poetry does not look like a tree

It's a question, but yes, you can also translate it that way. It actually males my point. Michael is like God, and David is like God and both are the Son of Hashem. The one above in heaven is the actual Son of God and Firstborn, the Sar Gadol, where David was an earthly reflection of that heavenly reality. Why is Michael, the one who is like God, so special? He's the one who bears The Name of Hashem and sits on the throne in heaven, surrounded by His angels. The "Metatron" is no other than Michael, the Archangel and Son of YHWH. He becomes Joshua/Yehoshua, leading the mixed multitude back into the promised land.

1 Samuel 8:4-9: "So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. They said to him, 'You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have.' But when they said, 'Give us a king to lead us,' this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to YHWH. And YHWH told him: 'Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do.'"

The heavenly King of Israel (Tsabaoth), did not want His earthly hosts/armies to have a mortal, human king. He made a concession. The original plan is to create a space for the incarnation of the Real King, and that occurred 2000 years ago, sparking the redemption of the world. A long process that leads to humanity and all of physical creation being transformed into heaven. Death is swallowed up by Life, humans and all life on this planet become luminous, infused with divine glory. This begins with the disciples of Yehoshua.

Just as Moses went up the mountain and disappeared for a period of time and then came back down. Mashiach likewise does the same.

 

[TruthNotBS]

How many of you are there?

We, as in you and me and everyone, are eventually redeemed. Only a few very wicked human beings will be subjected to the second death.

 

[BreezeWood]

- that the unknown authors had to use figurative language.

the religion of antiquity is spoken not written ... the religion is 6 words in length.

the desert 10000 page documents are nothing but figurative and by the least accommodating sources on planet earth ... jews christians and muslims.

 

[TruthNotBS]

ROFLMAO @ "incarnation" and "redeemed"

Yes. The one who is like God, the Sar Gadol, did this:

Philippians 2:5-7:

English (Literal): "who, existing in the form (morphe) of divinity (divine immortal form), did not consider equality with God something to be grasped (did not remain like God), but emptied himself, taking the form (morphe) of a servant, being made in the likeness of men..."

The word "μορφῇ" (morphē) translates as "form" and is used twice in this passage. First, it is used to say that Mashiach existed in the "form of divinity" and then it is used again when it says he took on the "form of a servant". In this context, "μορφῇ" is often understood to mean not just physical form, but also the nature of something. The word "ὁμοιώματι" (homoíōmati) translates to "likeness" or "similarity", and is used here to refer to Yehoshua being made in the likeness of men, implying his incarnation as a human being.

The Sar Gadol, the one who is like God (MikaEl), emptied himself of his divine, immortal form/body, that luminous anthropoid/humanoid body, adopting the body of a lowly mortal on earth. That is part of His greatness. Being willing and able to brave the hazards of mortal life, even falling into temptation and perishing, in order to secure the salvation (the redemption) of humanity and all life on planet Earth. YHWH Saves = Yehoshua/Joshua/Jesus. That's what The Name of Messiah means. He is the salvation of YHWH/Hashem. The process of redemption began 2000 years ago. Mashiach will return. and He said that around the time of His return, there would be many signs in the sky. There are many "signs" now.

 

[irosie91]

I wrote it

It's a question, but yes, you can also translate it that way. It actually males my point. Michael is like God, and David is like God and both are the Son of Hashem. The one above in heaven is the actual Son of God and Firstborn, the Sar Gadol, where David was an earthly reflection of that heavenly reality. Why is Michael, the one who is like God, so special? He's the one who bears The Name of Hashem and sits on the throne in heaven, surrounded by His angels. The "Metatron" is no other than Michael, the Archangel and Son of YHWH. He becomes Joshua/Yehoshua, leading the mixed multitude back into the promised land.

1 Samuel 8:4-9: "So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. They said to him, 'You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have.' But when they said, 'Give us a king to lead us,' this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to YHWH. And YHWH told him: 'Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do.'"

The heavenly King of Israel (Tsabaoth), did not want His earthly hosts/armies to have a mortal, human king. He made a concession. The original plan is to create a space for the incarnation of the Real King, and that occurred 2000 years ago, sparking the redemption of the world. A long process that leads to humanity and all of physical creation being transformed into heaven. Death is swallowed up by Life, humans and all life on this planet become luminous, infused with divine glory. This begins with the disciples of Yehoshua.

Just as Moses went up the mountain and disappeared for a period of time and then came back down. Mashiach likewise does the same.

ROFLMAO @ SHOE-HORN CHRISTIAN "SCHOLARSHIP"

 

[rosends]

The heavenly King of Israel (Tsabaoth),

the Hebrew word tz'va'ot means "legions" -- when used after the name of God indicates either that God is the master of the legions of heavenly forces or that God is the God of the masses of the Israelites.

צבאות – ויקיפדיה

he.wikipedia.org

 

[TruthNotBS]

No, Michael did not raise the dead. He intended to speak against other nations but then asked for mercy on Israel's behalf.
Rashi -- ישתתק כאלם שיראה הקב"ה דן בעצמו ואומר היאך אאבד אומה גדולה כזו בשביל ישראל:
Metzudat David -- לבקש רחמים על ישראל


No, the question "who is like God" is answered in the text. Are you not familiar with

אֵ֥ין כָּאֵ֖ל יְשֻׁר֑וּן​

or this phrase which appears 6 times?
אֵין כָּמוֹךָ וְאֵין אֱלֹהִים זוּלָתֶךָ



actually, that's not what the phrase means, especially in light of the subsequest phrase -- to help you out, start with the T"Y on the verse

כְּרַבְרְבִין יִצְלְחוּן בְּמַלְאֲכָא דַייָ קָדָמֵיהוֹן
and check out the Ibn Ezra's summary
מלאכים וככה פירושו כמלאך ה' לפניהם במלחמה.

That's not what Rashi says -- כסאך שר ושופט לעולם ועד (your throne, minister and judge eternally). The commentator who identifies it as a reference to Solomon is quoted by the Radak "החכם ר׳ אברהם פירש: כסאך כסא אלהים, כמו וישב שלמה על כסא" but that is because he explains the verse as "your throne is of God". This is the same Radak who also wrote "התועים הנוצרים שמפרשים המזמור על ישו הנוצרי"

No, as text indicates, no one is like God but God can prepare a throne for a king. No one worshipped the king.

The Hebrew phrase "אֵ֥ין כָּאֵ֖ל יְשֻׁר֑וּן" is from Deuteronomy 33:26 in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible). In English, it translates to "There is none like God, O Jeshurun". Yes indeed, there is no other God among the nations, no dead idol that can be compared to YHWH. There is also no one in heaven or here on Earth, that can say that he is ontologically, literally in every way "equal" with Hashem. Nonetheless, the official shaliach or agent of Hashem, is like Hashem. YHWH Himself states this throughout the Hebrew Bible. Angels, Judges, the Kings of Israel, are identified as "Elohim" (they're like God).

Psalm 45:7. The verse reads as follows in English:

"Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom."

The phrase "כִּסְאֲךָ אֱלֹהִים" (Kis'akha Elohim) translates directly as "Your throne, O God". The use of "Elohim" (God) here can be understood as a vocative, i.e., it is addressing the individual as "God". This interpretation is typically supported by the context in the following verse, which says "Therefore God, your God, has anointed you..." ("עַל-כֵּן מְשָׁחְךָ אֱלֹהִים אֱלֹהֶיךָ...").

Rashi translates:
"Your throne, O judge, [will exist] forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom."

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16266/jewish/Chapter-45.htm

That's vocative. The person who is being addressed as God in Hebrew is the one who sits on the throne. The King of Israel. This is grammatically correct and also acknowledged here by Rashi through his translation. He writes "O Judge", rather than O God, because the King is a judge as well, and judges are identified as "Elohim":

This can be seen in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9, where "Elohim" is often translated as "the judges" in many English versions of the Bible.

Here are those passages:

Exodus 21:6 (NIV): "then his master must take him before the judges (Elohim). He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life."

Exodus 22:8-9 (NIV): "If the thief is not found, the owner of the house must appear before the judges (Elohim), to determine whether the owner of the house has laid hands on the other person’s property. For all manner of trespass, whether it concerns an ox, a donkey, a sheep, or clothing, or for any kind of lost thing which another claims to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges (Elohim); whoever the judges (Elohim) condemn shall pay double to his neighbor."

In Exodus 7:1:

"Then YHWH said to Moses, 'See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.'"

Exodus 4:15-16, God tells Moses regarding his brother Aaron:

"You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do. He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him."

YHWH makes the Mashiach "Like God" to His Tsabaoth (the heavenly angels/heavenly Israel) and to earthly Israel as well. Mashiach is like God, so of course the goyim are going to worship Him. That's not idolatry any more than this is:

1Ch 29:20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless YHWH your God. And all the congregation blessed YHWH God of their fathers and bowed down their heads, and worshipped YHWH, and the king.

It's not idolatry to worship Hashem and His King. The one who sits on His throne.

1Ch_29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of YHWH as king instead of David his father and prospered, and all Israel obeyed him.

For us all to fall flat on our faces and worship Mashiach, our savior, the one who came down from heaven to begin the process of redemption, is not idolatry. The goyim have been overwhelmed with His glory, and as a result have been blinded by the light, conjuring up false ideas, and speculating way too much about the nature of Mashiach. When they say that Messiah, "Christ", is Like God, they mean it ontologically and absolutely, and that's where they're wrong. There is functional equality between the heavenly Sar Gadol/Metatron/Michael and YHWH - Hashem, but they are not ontologically the same and equal.

Falling into that error, doesn't make one an idolater, equivalent to worshiping dead idols or a tree or the moon. Jewish anti-missionaries like Tovia Singer often make that claim. That Christians are idolaters. No, they're not. Hashem interacts with the world through His agents. The top agents or shaliach of YHWH, are His Son (Sar Gadol) and Gabriel, who acts as the main created source of YHWH's Holy Spirit/Power/Glory. The Holy Spirit is delegated down the hierarchy, from YHWH to His Son and to Gabriel. There is a type of functional, divine "Godhead" and this "Triunity" is expressed on the Ark Of The Covenant:

Those two angels represent the Sar Gadol and Gabriel, the two holy spirits, worshiping Hashem. In the center is The Name YHWH, manifesting His Life and Light, His Glory. Michael and Gabriel transmit that to the other angels (holy spirits). You must be born again or born above, in Mashiach, as His disciple, to receive the Holy Spirit of YHWH. It is given to you through the angels (holy spirits). The heavenly angels are spirits and they are holy. They transmit The Name/Nature/Power of YHWH to you. The Eternal becomes imminently present in your life through Mashiach, the Sar Gadol = Yehoshua (The Salvation of YHWH). Go ahead, I await your insults.

 

[TruthNotBS]

the Hebrew word tz'va'ot means "legions" -- when used after the name of God indicates either that God is the master of the legions of heavenly forces or that God is the God of the masses of the Israelites.

צבאות – ויקיפדיה

he.wikipedia.org

His Tsavaot, are both in Heaven and on Earth. There is heavenly Israel and earthly Israel. There is a temple above, and a temple below (His people today are His tabernacle or temple). There is a King above, and there was to be a King below as well. The incarnation of the heavenly King, would become our earthly King. Mashiach. But the children of Israel demanded to be like the other nations and YHWH made a concession. The Mashiach is identified as David, but He is greater than David. He is the heavenly King, who incarnates, and adopts a mortal nature, in order to sanctify the Name of YHWH upon the Earth and spark the process of redemption for everyone.

The Israelites were chosen to create a holy place, free of idolatry and child sacrifice, fit for the incarnation of the heavenly King. The Sar Gadol. Whose Name means "Who Is Like God?", and the answer to that is "You Are Like God", you are the King. He is known as the one who is Like God. His Name is also Yehoshua/Joshua/Jesus = The Salvation Of Hashem. The One who leads the mixed multitude into the land of milk and honey. The Garden of Eden, where the tree of life grants immortality in YHWH's presence. Where all who dwell, manifest His Name/Nature: YHWH (Yod Hey Waw Hey). Go ahead, I await your disparaging comments.

 

[irosie91]

It's a question, but yes, you can also translate it that way. It actually males my point. Michael is like God, and David is like God and both are the Son of Hashem. The one above in heaven is the actual Son of God and Firstborn, the Sar Gadol, where David was an earthly reflection of that heavenly reality. Why is Michael, the one who is like God, so special? He's the one who bears The Name of Hashem and sits on the throne in heaven, surrounded by His angels. The "Metatron" is no other than Michael, the Archangel and Son of YHWH. He becomes Joshua/Yehoshua, leading the mixed multitude back into the promised land.

1 Samuel 8:4-9: "So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. They said to him, 'You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have.' But when they said, 'Give us a king to lead us,' this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to YHWH. And YHWH told him: 'Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do.'"

The heavenly King of Israel (Tsabaoth), did not want His earthly hosts/armies to have a mortal, human king. He made a concession. The original plan is to create a space for the incarnation of the Real King, and that occurred 2000 years ago, sparking the redemption of the world. A long process that leads to humanity and all of physical creation being transformed into heaven. Death is swallowed up by Life, humans and all life on this planet become luminous, infused with divine glory. This begins with the disciples of Yehoshua.

Just as Moses went up the mountain and disappeared for a period of time and then came back down. Mashiach likewise does the same.

NO Michael is NOT A QUESTION----you said you know hebrew----YOU LIED

 

[irosie91]

The Hebrew phrase "אֵ֥ין כָּאֵ֖ל יְשֻׁר֑וּן" is from Deuteronomy 33:26 in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible). In English, it translates to "There is none like God, O Jeshurun". Yes indeed, there is no other God among the nations, no dead idol that can be compared to YHWH. There is also no one in heaven or here on Earth, that can say that he is ontologically, literally in every way "equal" with Hashem. Nonetheless, the official shaliach or agent of Hashem, is like Hashem. YHWH Himself states this throughout the Hebrew Bible. Angels, Judges, the Kings of Israel, are identified as "Elohim" (they're like God).

Psalm 45:7. The verse reads as follows in English:

"Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom."

The phrase "כִּסְאֲךָ אֱלֹהִים" (Kis'akha Elohim) translates directly as "Your throne, O God". The use of "Elohim" (God) here can be understood as a vocative, i.e., it is addressing the individual as "God". This interpretation is typically supported by the context in the following verse, which says "Therefore God, your God, has anointed you..." ("עַל-כֵּן מְשָׁחְךָ אֱלֹהִים אֱלֹהֶיךָ...").

Rashi translates:
"Your throne, O judge, [will exist] forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom."

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16266/jewish/Chapter-45.htm

That's vocative. The person who is being addressed as God in Hebrew is the one who sits on the throne. The King of Israel. This is grammatically correct and also acknowledged here by Rashi through his translation. He writes "O Judge", rather than O God, because the King is a judge as well, and judges are identified as "Elohim":

This can be seen in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8-9, where "Elohim" is often translated as "the judges" in many English versions of the Bible.

Here are those passages:

Exodus 21:6 (NIV): "then his master must take him before the judges (Elohim). He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life."

Exodus 22:8-9 (NIV): "If the thief is not found, the owner of the house must appear before the judges (Elohim), to determine whether the owner of the house has laid hands on the other person’s property. For all manner of trespass, whether it concerns an ox, a donkey, a sheep, or clothing, or for any kind of lost thing which another claims to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges (Elohim); whoever the judges (Elohim) condemn shall pay double to his neighbor."

In Exodus 7:1:

"Then YHWH said to Moses, 'See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.'"

Exodus 4:15-16, God tells Moses regarding his brother Aaron:

"You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do. He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him."

YHWH makes the Mashiach "Like God" to His Tsabaoth (the heavenly angels/heavenly Israel) and to earthly Israel as well. Mashiach is like God, so of course the goyim are going to worship Him. That's not idolatry any more than this is:

1Ch 29:20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless YHWH your God. And all the congregation blessed YHWH God of their fathers and bowed down their heads, and worshipped YHWH, and the king.

It's not idolatry to worship Hashem and His King. The one who sits on His throne.

1Ch_29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of YHWH as king instead of David his father and prospered, and all Israel obeyed him.

For us all to fall flat on our faces and worship Mashiach, our savior, the one who came down from heaven to begin the process of redemption, is not idolatry. The goyim have been overwhelmed with His glory, and as a result have been blinded by the light, conjuring up false ideas, and speculating way too much about the nature of Mashiach. When they say that Messiah, "Christ", is Like God, they mean it ontologically and absolutely, and that's where they're wrong. There is functional equality between the heavenly Sar Gadol/Metatron/Michael and YHWH - Hashem, but they are not ontologically the same and equal.

Falling into that error, doesn't make one an idolater, equivalent to worshiping dead idols or a tree or the moon. Jewish anti-missionaries like Tovia Singer often make that claim. That Christians are idolaters. No, they're not. Hashem interacts with the world through His agents. The top agents or shaliach of YHWH, are His Son (Sar Gadol) and Gabriel, who acts as the main created source of YHWH's Holy Spirit/Power/Glory. The Holy Spirit is delegated down the hierarchy, from YHWH to His Son and to Gabriel. There is a type of functional, divine "Godhead" and this "Triunity" is expressed on the Ark Of The Covenant:

View attachment 796810​

Those two angels represent the Sar Gadol and Gabriel, the two holy spirits, worshiping Hashem. In the center is The Name YHWH, manifesting His Life and Light, His Glory. Michael and Gabriel transmit that to the other angels (holy spirits). You must be born again or born above, in Mashiach, as His disciple, to receive the Holy Spirit of YHWH. It is given to you through the angels (holy spirits). The heavenly angels are spirits and they are holy. They transmit The Name/Nature/Power of YHWH to you. The Eternal becomes imminently present in your life through Mashiach, the Sar Gadol = Yehoshua (The Salvation of YHWH). Go ahead, I await your insults.

wrong again---you grasp of hebrew is RISIBLE

 

[TruthNotBS]

NO Michael is NOT A QUESTION----you said you know hebrew----YOU LIED

In Hebrew, the name "Michael" is "מִיכָאֵל" (Mikha'el). This name is composed of three parts: "mi" (who), "kha" (like), and "el" (God). Taken together, "Michael" can be interpreted as a rhetorical question meaning "Who is like God?". However, if it's not a question, it doesn't matter. The essential truth is still preserved and that is that the Sar Gadol is Like God. You are in a way confirming what I said. You're straining the gnat. Being pedantic and disingenuous with me. Indeed Michael, the Sar Gadol, High Prince of Heaven, is Like God.

I believe it's a rhetorical question for the angels. Unlike the followers of rabbinic Judaism, we believe that there was a war in the heavens. There was an attempt to usurp the unique position of the Sar Gadol/High Prince/Archangel, who is the firstborn of creation. The Son of YHWH, was involved in a conflict, and He won, along with His armies. This universe is in ruins as a result of that war, and we are in a way victims of that conflict. The Sar Gadol or High Prince of heaven, proves to all of the angles, who is actually like God. He asks the question, Who Is Like God? He incarnates becoming as nothing ( "כלום" Klum). He incarnated from His high position, to save humanity. The glory of Israel is the incarnation of that Jew who split time.

Mashiach is the Jew who split time. Who gathers a mixed multitude of human beings and guides them into the land of milk and honey. He is Yehoshua/Joshua/Jesus, the salvation of YHWH. The one who guides the mixed multitude into the promised land, the Garden of Eden. Eternal Life. The nation of Israel, the Jewish people, were chosen to create a place in this corrupt world, for the incarnation of Yehoshua. He unites us all and saves us from destruction. Death had no authority over him.

 

[TruthNotBS]

wrong again---you grasp of hebrew is RISIBLE

How so? Be specific.

Hebrew dictionaries, several rabbis agree with my translation, including Rashi, who identifies "כִּסְאֲךָ אֱלֹהִים" (Kis'akha Elohim) in the vocative. It's not the throne that is being addressed, but the one who sits upon it.

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16266/jewish/Chapter-45.htm

 

[BreezeWood]

There is functional equality between the heavenly Sar Gadol/Metatron/Michael and YHWH - Hashem, but they are not ontologically the same and equal.

- all in the heavens are equal in purity.

 

[TruthNotBS]

- all in the heavens are equal in purity.

Ontological equality means that they are the same being, in every respect and that's false. There is a functional equality that is conditional. Everything and everyone who exists is a contingent reality, unlike YHWH, who is the only non-contingent being. The only necessary being is YHWH, our Heavenly Father. The ultimate source of all. Trinitarians make the mistake of making Jesus equal to the Heavenly Father, ontologically and substantially. Co-equal, Co-eternal, consubstantial. The non-believing Jews are correct, in rejecting the Roman Catholic, Gentile interpretation of YHWH's nature, with respect to the "Trinity".

The only divine "Trinity" or Triunity that exists, is one between the true, eternal, non-contingent deity, or YHWH Father, and his two highest creations. Michael and Gabriel, represented on the "crown" of the Ark Of The Covenant:

YHWH, The One True God, Our Heavenly Father, manifests His Glory and Name between His two highest creations. Michael and Gabriel. The name Gabriel in Hebrew is "גַּבְרִיאֵל" (Gavri'el). It's composed of two parts: "gavri" which means "strong man" or "man of," and "el" which is a common short form for "Elohim," meaning "God." Taken together, "Gabriel" is often interpreted as "man of God" or "God is my strength." Another interpretation could be "Power of God," as "gavri" can also convey a sense of strength or power. Gabriel = Power Of YHWH. Michael and Gabriel, are at the top of the angelic hierarchy (at the crown). FATHER, SON, HOLY SPIRIT. GOD ABOVE, GOD WITH US, GOD WITHIN US.

 

[rosends]

The Hebrew phrase "אֵ֥ין כָּאֵ֖ל יְשֻׁר֑וּן" is from Deuteronomy 33:26 in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible). In English, it translates to "There is none like God, O Jeshurun". Yes indeed, there is no other God among the nations, no dead idol that can be compared to YHWH.

See what you did there? The text reads "there is none like you" which directly answers the question of mi ka'el, Who is like you? But instead of seeing it as it is written, you switch to "there is no other God". This is you avoiding the actual text and using a misreading so you can retain your point.

Nonetheless, the official shaliach or agent of Hashem, is like Hashem. YHWH Himself states this throughout the Hebrew Bible. Angels, Judges, the Kings of Israel, are identified as "Elohim" (they're like God).

Except that "elohim" doesn't always mean God. That's basic Hebrew. They aren't like God, they are like "elohim" which means something totally different.

The use of "Elohim" (God) here can be understood as a vocative, i.e., it is addressing the individual as "God". This interpretation is typically supported by the context in the following verse, which says "Therefore God, your God, has anointed you..." ("עַל-כֵּן מְשָׁחְךָ אֱלֹהִים אֱלֹהֶיךָ...").

Elohim would not be vocative. The direct address of kis'acha would create the vocative sense of direct address if you wanted to read it that way. In fact, Rashi DOES read it that way, except he explains the elohim doesn't mean God, so the text is directly addressing the king in the throne. He shows how the word means "judge" in other cases and understands it to mean judge (not God) in this use. Other commentators do not see it as vocative (the elohim part), and write things like כסאך יכין אלהים (Sa'adia Ga'on). The Malbim understands the one word as indicating two ideas עומד במקום שנים, כסאך כסא אלהים

In Exodus 7:1:

"Then YHWH said to Moses, 'See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.'"

If you acknowledge that it is used to mean "judge" then why do you use a translation of this verse that has "God" in it? Weird.

Exodus 4:15-16, God tells Moses regarding his brother Aaron:

"You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do. He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him."

You did it again. Rashi on this verse explicitly translates it as "לרב ולשר" but you write "God" which is contrary to the exact source you were just quoting.

YHWH makes the Mashiach "Like God" to His Tsabaoth (the heavenly angels/heavenly Israel)

No, he doesn't. He makes him like a leader and judge. Remember? Elohim doesn't necessarily mean "God." You just proved this.

Mashiach is like God

no, he isn't. "Judge", remember?

1Ch_29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of YHWH as king instead of David his father and prospered, and all Israel obeyed him.

So "obeyed" is the same as "worshipped"? In fact, even the choice of "obeyed" is a matter of interpretation as the Hebrew actually reads וַיִּשְׁמְע֥וּ אֵלָ֖יו (and they listened to him). The rest of your silliness that emerges from your misunderstanding may not be classical "idolatry" but is certainly at least shituf for non-Jews and forbidden worship for Jews

 

[rosends]

His Tsavaot, are both in Heaven and on Earth. There is heavenly Israel and earthly Israel. There is a temple above, and a temple below (His people today are His tabernacle or temple). There is a King above, and there was to be a King below as well. The incarnation of the heavenly King, would become our earthly King. Mashiach. But the children of Israel demanded to be like the other nations and YHWH made a concession. The Mashiach is identified as David, but He is greater than David. He is the heavenly King, who incarnates, and adopts a mortal nature, in order to sanctify the Name of YHWH upon the Earth and spark the process of redemption for everyone.

The Israelites were chosen to create a holy place, free of idolatry and child sacrifice, fit for the incarnation of the heavenly King. The Sar Gadol. Whose Name means "Who Is Like God?", and the answer to that is "You Are Like God", you are the King. He is known as the one who is Like God. His Name is also Yehoshua/Joshua/Jesus = The Salvation Of Hashem. The One who leads the mixed multitude into the land of milk and honey. The Garden of Eden, where the tree of life grants immortality in YHWH's presence. Where all who dwell, manifest His Name/Nature: YHWH (Yod Hey Waw Hey). Go ahead, I await your disparaging comments.

this is all your theology and not the actual text. You should go and have fun with your beliefs. They have nothing to do with Judaism or the actual text. You have invented things, mistranslated things and snipped bits and pieces to create a patchwork construct. If that works for you, then go with that. It isn't very persuasive because it is based on all those errors, but best of luck.

 

[AsherN]

this is all your theology and not the actual text. You should go and have fun with your beliefs. They have nothing to do with Judaism or the actual text. You have invented things, mistranslated things and snipped bits and pieces to create a patchwork construct. If that works for you, then go with that. It isn't very persuasive because it is based on all those errors, but best of luck.

That's what Christians do. They use snippets, often mistranslated, completely out of context to shoehorn their beliefs into Tanakh.

 

[irosie91]

How so? Be specific.

Hebrew dictionaries, several rabbis agree with my translation, including Rashi, who identifies "כִּסְאֲךָ אֱלֹהִים" (Kis'akha Elohim) in the vocative. It's not the throne that is being addressed, but the one who sits upon it.

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16266/jewish/Chapter-45.htm

ROFLMAO-----mr. man imagines that RASHI, an 11th century rabbi who lived in
Framce -----somehow agrees with mr. man's english translation of Hebrew. Rashi
was VERY precise----he did translate---for the sake of example---into French---not
english. MICHAEL IS NOT A "question" in hebrew

 

[shockedcanadian]

I used to watch a couple of Rabbis on youtube years ago, it was an interesting listen. There is less of a discussion of the Old Testament (Torah) and more a philosophical.discussion. I found another such Rabbi, Rabbi Friedman, who engages in similar diiscussions. He covers peculiar topics which makes him interesting The suject could be the soul, life after death, heaven/hell.etc but it is always God focused and rarely simply.the reading out of verses.

 

[TruthNotBS]

See what you did there? The text reads "there is none like you" which directly answers the question of mi ka'el, Who is like you? But instead of seeing it as it is written, you switch to "there is no other God". This is you avoiding the actual text and using a misreading so you can retain your point.


Except that "elohim" doesn't always mean God. That's basic Hebrew. They aren't like God, they are like "elohim" which means something totally different.


Elohim would not be vocative. The direct address of kis'acha would create the vocative sense of direct address if you wanted to read it that way. In fact, Rashi DOES read it that way, except he explains the elohim doesn't mean God, so the text is directly addressing the king in the throne. He shows how the word means "judge" in other cases and understands it to mean judge (not God) in this use. Other commentators do not see it as vocative (the elohim part), and write things like כסאך יכין אלהים (Sa'adia Ga'on). The Malbim understands the one word as indicating two ideas עומד במקום שנים, כסאך כסא אלהים

If you acknowledge that it is used to mean "judge" then why do you use a translation of this verse that has "God" in it? Weird.


You did it again. Rashi on this verse explicitly translates it as "לרב ולשר" but you write "God" which is contrary to the exact source you were just quoting.

No, he doesn't. He makes him like a leader and judge. Remember? Elohim doesn't necessarily mean "God." You just proved this.

no, he isn't. "Judge", remember?


So "obeyed" is the same as "worshipped"? In fact, even the choice of "obeyed" is a matter of interpretation as the Hebrew actually reads וַיִּשְׁמְע֥וּ אֵלָ֖יו (and they listened to him). The rest of your silliness that emerges from your misunderstanding may not be classical "idolatry" but is certainly at least shituf for non-Jews and forbidden worship for Jews

See what you did there? The text reads "there is none like you" which directly answers the question of mi ka'el, Who is like you?

You're taking it out of context and misapplying it.

Deu 33:25-27 Thy shoes shall be iron and brass; and as thy days, so shall thy strength be. (26) There is none like unto the El of Jeshurun, who rideth upon the heaven in thy help, and in his excellency on the sky. (27) The eternal Elohim is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.

(The everlasting arms and the means through which YHWH "thrusts out", are finite, divine agents. They are identified in scripture as "gods"/divine immortals - in a limited sense, they are like YHWH.)

When we read in the Torah or anywhere else in the scriptures that YHWH is like no other, it is conveying that in the absolute sense. We know from scripture that there are other gods, but those gods are contingent beings, unlike the Eternal, Infinite YHWH, our heavenly Father, who is the only non-contingent and uniquely necessary being. There are no other Almighty Gods, there is only one "capital G" GOD (Our Father YHWH). However, in a finite sense, there are creatures (created beings) who are identified as Elohim or gods.

Psa 8:3-6 JPS (8:4) When I behold Thy heavens, the work of Thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which Thou hast established; (4) (8:5) What is man, that Thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that Thou thinkest of him? (5) (8:6) Yet Thou hast made him but little lower than the angels (Elohim/elohim/gods), and hast crowned him with glory and honor. (6) (8:7) Thou hast made him to have dominion over the works of Thy hands; Thou hast put all things under His feet:

Mankind was created a little lower than the gods. Those gods or angels are like Hashem, in a limited, finite way. No one is absolutely equal or like YHWH. That is indeed a serious error. Michael is like God, similar to how the judges of Israel are like YHWH:

Psa 82:1-8 A Psalm of Asaph. God/Elohim/Sar Gadol, standeth in the congregation of EL (The Mighty One YHWH); in the midst of the judges (Elohim/gods), He judgeth: (2) 'How long will ye judge unjustly, and respect the persons of the wicked? Selah (3) Judge the poor and fatherless; do justice to the afflicted and destitute. (4) Rescue the poor and needy; deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. (5) They know not, neither do they understand; they go about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are moved. (6) I said: Ye are godlike beings (elohim/gods), and all of you sons of the Most High (YHWH). (7) Nevertheless ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.' (8) Arise, O God/Elohim, judge the earth; for Thou shalt possess all nations.

YHWH possesses the Naitons through Mashiach/SAR GADOL = The Highest Of His Creatures = The true Son of YHWH, the King of Kings = "Mee-kha-el" מיכאל, The One Who Is Like God/YHWH. The Arm of Adonai, Shepherd of Israel, who uniquely bears The Name of Hashem.

Exodus 23:21 "Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since My Name is in him."

Joshua 5:13-15
כִּי אֲנִי שַׂר צְבָא יְהוָה
ki ani sar tzeva YHWH

Sar Gadol/High Prince/Archangel MeeKhaEl = The Prophet Like Moses/Joshua/Yehoshua/Jesus = Mashiach Ha'Melech = Salvation Of YHWH (Yehoshua/Joshua/Jesus).

But instead of seeing it as it is written, you switch to "there is no other God". This is you avoiding the actual text and using a misreading so you can retain your point.

There is indeed none like YHWH, our heavenly Father in an absolute sense. He is the only non-contingent, truly eternal God. Nonetheless, in a finite sense, there are other gods who are like YHWH. So you are misinterpreting that passage and contradicting all of the other passages where YHWH Himself, declares others to be Elohim.

For example, there is also No Savior but YHWH, in an absolute sense:

Isaiah 43:11 states: "I, even I, am YHWH, and apart from me there is no savior."

Now, let's look at some examples where humans are identified as saviors:

1. Judges 3:9 : "But when they cried out to YHWH, he raised up for them a savior, Othniel son of Kenaz, Caleb’s younger brother, who saved them."
2. Nehemiah 9:27 : "So you delivered them into the hands of their enemies, who oppressed them. But when they were oppressed they cried out to you. From heaven you heard them, and in your great compassion you gave them saviors, who rescued them from the hand of their enemies."
3. 2 Kings 13:5 : "Then YHWH gave Israel a savior, so that they escaped from under the hand of the Syrians, and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents as before."

These verses illustrate that while YHWH is seen as the ultimate savior, human individuals can serve as "saviors" or "deliverers" in the sense that they lead or rescue people from danger, through the power of YHWH, the TRUE SAVIOR.

Following your hermeneutic, I would have to say that there are NO SAVIORS OTHER THAN YHWH, in an absolute sense to the exclusion of other saviors, in every other sense. That's not good exegesis. You are saying "THERE IS NO ONE LIKE GOD", but there are passages, as I already showed, that completely contradict that claim, if you are interpreting it in an absolute sense. Which unfortunately you are.

Except that "elohim" doesn't always mean God. That's basic Hebrew. They aren't like God, they are like "elohim" which means something totally different.

When YHWH tells Moses in Exodus 4:15-16:

"You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do. He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God/Elohim to him."

In Exodus 7:1 it reads:

"Then YHWH said to Moses, 'See, I have made you like Elohim to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.'"

He was like God to Pharaoh and His brother Aaron, in a limited, functional sense. As a divinely appointed authority and functionary, He is like YHWH Himself. That's why David sits on the very throne of YHWH in Jerusalem and was worshiped, within the context of worshiping YHWH Himself:

1Ch_29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of YHWH as king instead of David his father, and prospered, and all Israel obeyed him.

Just like all of Israel in heaven (the Tsvaoth) obey the Sar Gadol, who likewise sits on the throne of YHWH.

1Ch 29:20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless YHWH your Elohim. And all the congregation blessed YHWH ELOHIM of their fathers and bowed down their heads, and worshipped YHWH, and the king (King David).

The one who sits on the throne of YHWH, can be worshiped as YHWH's Son and Mashiach (anointed one). YHWH was angry with Israel when they demanded to have an earthly mortal King, because YHWH wanted Israel to worship Him without prostrating before a corrupt mortal, sitting on a physical throne, but He made a concession, due to Israel's stubborn heart.

1 Samuel 8:4-9: "So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. They said to him, 'You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have.' But when they said, 'Give us a king to lead us,' this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to YHWH. And YHWH told him: 'Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do.'"

YHWH would prefer the Israelites not worship YHWH and the king, sitting on a physical throne in Jerusalem. But he made a concession. YHWH the heavenly Father, allows the Sar Gadol, Michael, the one who is like YHWH, to incarnate, and become the King of the world and its savior.

YHWH Father and His firstborn Son, are as One. He is the perfect, undefiled image of YHWH. The Jew who split time. The Jew of Jews, the King of Kings. The Jewish person who the goyim pursue and worship. The glory of Israel. Not your geopolitical, mundane, carnal, and corrupt kabbalist Mashiach. That's not going to cut it. No covenant can be cut under such mortal, corrupt conditions. The world needs a super-Jew:

...and that is Yehoshua, the incarnation of the Sar Gadol.

The Second Adam - New Head Of Humanity
​

The day the Jewish people realize this, they will transform the world. The glory of Hashem and His anointed will shine in every Jewish heart and the Torah will become brighter than a thousand suns, drawing the whole world to YHWH. Judah and Ephraim will become one, and Israel will be fully restored. Even Muslims will serve Hashem.


Elohim would not be vocative. The direct address of kis'acha would create the vocative sense of direct address if you wanted to read it that way. In fact, Rashi DOES read it that way, except he explains the elohim doesn't mean God, so the text is directly addressing the king in the throne. He shows how the word means "judge" in other cases and understands it to mean judge (not God) in this use.

You are making my point kimosabe. Of course, the word Elohim (אֱלֹהִים) there is not being applied literally, in an absolute sense, to King David or a human judge. I never said that. It is being used in a limited sense, and that is why Rashi as you admit, translates the word Elohim, in the vocative sense, being directed at the "judge". The Judge is identified with Elohim, because he judges for Elohim (it's a functional equality, rather than an ontological one). Elohim is with the Judge in Judgment, hence the judge is called "Elohim", within the capacity of his vocation or work as a judge (in the case of Psalms 45:7, the king of Israel is identified by Rashi as a judge).

Rabbinic Judaism didn't teach you this ancient Hebrew principle? The law of agency. Shaliach. The principle and the one who is sent, are as ONE. This is in the Hebrew Bible and in the New Covenant scriptures as well.

Psa 82:1-8 A Psalm of Asaph. God/Elohim/Sar Gadol, standeth in the congregation of EL (The Mighty One YHWH); in the midst of the judges (elohim/gods), He judgeth: (2) 'How long will ye judge unjustly, and respect the persons of the wicked? Selah (3) Judge the poor and fatherless; do justice to the afflicted and destitute. (4) Rescue the poor and needy; deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. (5) They know not, neither do they understand; they go about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are moved. (6) I said: Ye are godlike beings (Elohim/Like God), and all of you sons of the Most High (YHWH). (7) Nevertheless ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.' (8) Arise, O God/Elohim, judge the earth; for Thou shalt possess all nations.

Judges, Chapter 11, Verse 27:

"I have not wronged you, but you are doing me wrong by waging war against me. Let YHWH, the Judge, decide the dispute this day between the Israelites and the Ammonites."

He judges through human beings, who are identified as Elohim, because they judge as Elohim. They are functionaries of divine judgment and hence are identified as Elohim. This is clear from the text.

Deuteronomy 1:17, Moses advises the judges as follows: "You shall not be partial in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike; you shall not be afraid of the face of man, for the judgment is God’s."

Judgment is God's and expressed through a human judge.

2 Chronicles 19:6-7 Jewish Publication Society (JPS) 1985 edition:

"He said to the judges, 'Consider what you are doing, for you judge not on behalf of man, but on behalf of YHWH, who is with you in pronouncing judgment. Now, let the dread of YHWH be upon you. Act carefully, for there is no injustice or favoritism or bribe-taking with YHWH our God.'"


Other commentators do not see it as vocative (the elohim part), and write things like כסאך יכין אלהים (Sa'adia Ga'on). The Malbim understands the one word as indicating two ideas עומד במקום שנים, כסאך כסא אלהים

David's throne is indeed the throne of YHWH. The one who sits on that throne is like YHWH, Elohim. Not ontologically as the gentile Christians erroneously believe. It's not an ontological equality, but rather a functional one, to be understood metaphorically, denoting how YHWH functions through finite creatures who are committed to His will and purpose. They are endowed with divine life, immortality, glory, power, and works. Divine functions. are expressed and carried out through them.

If you acknowledge that it is used to mean "judge" then why do you use a translation of this verse that has "God" in it? Weird.

Because that's what is in the original Hebrew. The word Elohim within the context of that verse, is a creature acting as a functionary or shaliach of YHWH. He is identified with YHWH himself, as Elohim, and Rash believes that the king is identified as God because he functions as a judge. The judges of Israel, are identified as Elohim. This is not to be understood literally, ontologically, but rather metaphorically and as a functional equality, rather than a literal and consubstantial one.


You did it again. Rashi on this verse explicitly translates it as "לרב ולשר" but you write "God" which is contrary to the exact source you were just quoting.

Rashi uses the word judge, because the judges are Elohim. They judge for Elohim, hence they are identified as Elohim, in a functional sense.

No, he doesn't. He makes him like a leader and judge. Remember? Elohim doesn't necessarily mean "God." You just proved this.

It doesn't literally mean God. Correct. I never suggested otherwise. Judges are God in a metaphorical, functional sense, as expressed in the original Hebrew text.


no, he isn't. "Judge", remember?


The kings of Israel are judges as well.

So "obeyed" is the same as "worshipped"? In fact, even the choice of "obeyed" is a matter of interpretation as the Hebrew actually reads וַיִּשְׁמְע֥וּ אֵלָ֖יו (and they listened to him). The rest of your silliness that emerges from your misunderstanding may not be classical "idolatry" but is certainly at least shituf for non-Jews and forbidden worship for Jews

Let's go to the Hebrew...

1 Chronicles 29:20 from the Jewish Publication Society (JPS) 1985 edition:

"And David said to all the congregation: 'Now bless YHWH your God.' And all the congregation blessed YHWH, the God of their fathers, and bowed down and prostrated themselves before YHWH and the king."

In this verse, the phrase "וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲוּ֔וּ לַיהוָ֖ה וְלַמֶּֽלֶךְ" (vayishtachavu laYHVH veLamelekh) is translated as "bowed down and prostrated themselves before YHWH and the king." The verb "וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲוּ֔וּ" (vayishtachavu) is practically, almost always, translated as "worshipped". Here it is translated as "bowed down and prostrated themselves," reflecting both the act of physical prostration and the respectful attitude that characterizes worship. They are falling flat on their faces before YHWH and His king, who sits on His throne in Jerusalem. Even Jerusalem, the city of David, is the very throne of YHWH. The one who sits on that throne represents the majesty, authority, and judgment of YHWH. He is worshiped with YHWH.

The ancient Israelites, had no problem, falling prostrate and worshiping YHWH, and His Mashiach. David embodies YHWH's authority and is His anointed one. The Jewish people demanded to be like the goyim, with a mortal king, sitting on a physical throne down here on earth. YHWH, the heavenly Father, and His Sar Gadol (His Son and Anointed One), the heavenly shepherd of Israel, in heaven, and on earth, were offended.

Nonetheless, He made a concession and allowed the Israelites to have an earthly, mortal, dying, corrupt king. A lowly, flawed symbol of a higher reality. It helped them focus and carry out their mission as a nation. To create a holy place where Michael, The High Prince and Shepherd of Israel could incarnate. Michael, who is like God, as the firstborn of YHWH's creation, as His glorious Arm/Power (Arm of YHWH), along with His right-hand man, Gabriel, catalyzed, put in motion, the redemption of YHWH's creation. The Jew who split time. The true super Jew, who the goyim pursue and will one day, win the hearts of the Jewish people currently lost in the wilderness of rabbinic, Talmudic Judaism.

The day Jewish people realize who Yehoshua is, they will raise the world from the dead.