Who Will Go To Heaven?

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by SinisterMotives
Oh, my bad. I figured, since they acted like they were stoned, where there's smoke there's fire.

That sounds like deranged Rush Limbaugh reasoning.

 

[SinisterMotives]

Someone here either needs to clear out their inbox or check their Yahoo! once in awhile.

 

[musicman]

Originally posted by SinisterMotives
Humans initially contracted bubonic plague because rats moved into human habitations as a result of clear cutting forests. AIDS most likely arose when people began coming into closer than normal contact with monkeys that carried it - again as a result of humans encroaching on natural habitats. The virii and bacteria thenselves, while direct causes of death and disease, are consequences of environmental destruction and overpopulation.

We don't have an AIDS epidemic because we're poor environmentalists. A man in Africa had carnal knowledge of monkeys (I guess you could call that closer than normal contact). He then had sex with Patient Zero, a Montreal airline steward. He, in turn, flew to every city in the industrialized world, gaily.... er, sorry-merrily infecting evreyone he came in "contact" with.

The disease became an epidemic in, of all places, San Francisco. The medical community proposed quarantining the four thousand or so patients. Had this sensible suggestion had been taken, "What is AIDS?", would be a $1,000 question on "Jeopardy" today. That happy outcome was frustrated by the powerful gay lobby (a new word was even invented: homophobia. What genius! If I find homosexuality repugnant, unnatural, and immoral, I've got the problem!).

Robert Bork was probably right. A free society is probably doomed because human nature will always push for more tolerance. I predict that most of us will see relaxed attitudes toward pedophilia and bestiality in our lifetimes. Party on!

 

[5stringJeff]

So, to recap, gays, Bible believers, droids, sci-fi enthusiasts, and Matt Groenig and AIDS sufferers are all going... somewhere when they die.

Sinister/WW, where is this "Which level of hell are you going to" quiz that you are always referring to?

 

[SinisterMotives]

I was apparently misinformed about the origin of AIDS. I'm pretty sure I'm right about the bubonic plague though.

Originally posted by musicman
The medical community proposed quarantining the four thousand or so patients.... That happy outcome was frustrated by the powerful gay lobby....

I doubt most rational people believe the politicization of science is a good idea. Conversely, many political activists are not scientists and allow their views to cloud their judgement. It's the same whether they're gay, straight, or whatever.

Originally posted by musicman
(a new word was even invented: homophobia. What genius! If I find homosexuality repugnant, unnatural, and immoral, I've got the problem!).

I personally wouldn't say that your disgust is abnormal. I consider the prospect of having sex with a person of the same sex as myself revolting too - as do most heterosexuals. On the other hand, gays probably find the idea of heterosexual sex just as revolting. As rtwngAvngr pointed out, sexual orientation is determined by chemical processes that occur prior to birth; thus one can't really be held responsible for being born either gay or straight.

Originally posted by musicman
Robert Bork was probably right. A free society is probably doomed because human nature will always push for more tolerance.

That's not human nature; it's the nature of democracy. Humans have a natural fear and aversion to things they don't understand. When this or that group pushes for greater tolerance, they're generally pushing for tolerance of their own group, not for some other group. But for the sake of argument, what solution would you propose? The elimination or severe curtailment of civil liberties? Bear in mind that whatever measures you choose to limit the freedom of others will be applied equally to yourself.

Originally posted by musicman
I predict that most of us will see relaxed attitudes toward pedophilia and bestiality in our lifetimes.

Somehow I doubt that. Anyone who attempts to molest a child risks facing the wrath of the child's parents, even if the greater community is apathetic or condones it. Many people have children of their own and have that in common with other parents, which tends to reinforce the general cultural aversion to pedophilia.

 

[SinisterMotives]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
Sinister/WW, where is this "Which level of hell are you going to" quiz that you are always referring to?

It may be in the chat forum, but I'm not sure. I saw it on another message board a long time ago and couldn't find it again now if my life depended on it.

 

[Joz]

Originally posted by wonderwench
I disagree with your characterization of sexuality as fluid. Some of us are wired to be heterosexuals; others to be homosexuals, some are bi-sexual and some are asexual. Considering all of the prejudice against gays, do you really think most of them make a voluntary choice to adopt such a difficult lifestyle?

Sexuality being fluid is a psychology definition, not mine. So if homosexuality were truly bio or genetic why would God find it displeasing? Does He condemn blue eyes, Down's syndrome or heart disease?

Grant you, disease has come from our sinful nature but certain diseases are genetically caused. God does not find them "an abomination".

And not everything we do is a 'conscious' choice. Are your decisions & behavior truly yours? Not from influences from upbringing, peers, society or something you've heard, read, etc. We are all influenced by outside stimuli, prone to certain weaknesses.

I'm sure that no gay woke up one morning & said, 'Today I will become a homosexual', but it was still a choice.

 

[musicman]

Originally posted by SinisterMotives

I personally wouldn't say that your disgust is abnormal. I consider the prospect of having sex with a person of the same sex as myself revolting too - as do most heterosexuals. On the other hand, gays probably find the idea of heterosexual sex just as revolting. As rtwngAvngr pointed out, sexual orientation is determined by chemical processes that occur prior to birth; thus one can't really be held responsible for being born either gay or straight.

I respectfully submit that this is nonsense. There is no credible scientific proof that sexual orientation is determined genetically. Moreover, as Joz pointed out, how could a loving God condemn behavior that can't be helped?

That's not human nature; it's the nature of democracy. Humans have a natural fear and aversion to things they don't understand. When this or that group pushes for greater tolerance, they're generally pushing for tolerance of their own group, not for some other group. But for the sake of argument, what solution would you propose? The elimination or severe curtailment of civil liberties? Bear in mind that whatever measures you choose to limit the freedom of others will be applied equally to yourself.


My regretful answer is that there is no solution. We're doomed.


Somehow I doubt that. Anyone who attempts to molest a child risks facing the wrath of the child's parents, even if the greater community is apathetic or condones it. Many people have children of their own and have that in common with other parents, which tends to reinforce the general cultural aversion to pedophilia. [/B]

Remember that the social changes we've seen (some might call them advances) have happened gradually. Atitudes can be adjusted, morals inexorably eroded. Human depravity knows no bounds.

 

[wonderwench]

Originally posted by gop_jeff
So, to recap, gays, Bible believers, droids, sci-fi enthusiasts, and Matt Groenig and AIDS sufferers are all going... somewhere when they die.

Sinister/WW, where is this "Which level of hell are you going to" quiz that you are always referring to?

I will start a thread in Chat with the link.

 

[smellthecoffee]

the opiate of the people! Don't give them food....give them religion.

 

[wonderwench]

Originally posted by Joz
Sexuality being fluid is a psychology definition, not mine. So if homosexuality were truly bio or genetic why would God find it displeasing? Does He condemn blue eyes, Down's syndrome or heart disease?

Grant you, disease has come from our sinful nature but certain diseases are genetically caused. God does not find them "an abomination".

And not everything we do is a 'conscious' choice. Are your decisions & behavior truly yours? Not from influences from upbringing, peers, society or something you've heard, read, etc. We are all influenced by outside stimuli, prone to certain weaknesses.

I'm sure that no gay woke up one morning & said, 'Today I will become a homosexual', but it was still a choice.

I addressed this topic earlier in the thread. The Bible was written and translated by humans over centuries. There are many things incorporated into the text which are dogma and reflective of the mores of the times. We have the faculty of reason - and should use it to assess what is revelant as an eternal truth, and what is the dogma inserted with it.

 

[SinisterMotives]

musicman said:
I respectfully submit that this is nonsense. There is no credible scientific proof that sexual orientation is determined genetically.

I can't say that one way or the other, as I didn't see the study results RWA cited. I have no reason to think he'd make up a story about having read an article or study to that effect, however. Perhaps he will be kind enough to post whatever document he was referring to.

musicman said:
Moreover, as Joz pointed out, how could a loving God condemn behavior that can't be helped?

Why ask me? I don't believe God condemns behavior that people have no control over. You should ask that question of the people who are making that assertion.

musicman said:
My regretful answer is that there is no solution. We're doomed.

That's a rather defeatist attitude, if you ask me. What are we supposed to do? Just throw our hands in the air and give up? I'm sorry, but that sounds like a cop-out to me.

musicman said:
Remember that the social changes we've seen (some might call them advances) have happened gradually. Atitudes can be adjusted, morals inexorably eroded. Human depravity knows no bounds..

You seem to be saying that the bad behavior of a few will drag us all down regardless of what we do. I think the vast majority of people have always been and will always be disgusted with pedophilia, bestiality, and perversions of that nature. They're certainly not going to start doing it one day just because they see someone else doing it. It may become tolerable in the sense that decent people will become numb to it or apathetic and turn a blind eye to it, but that's not the same as saying that people who find it disgusting will suddenly lose their disgust and embrace it. And again, people who have children will always instinctively protect their children from those who do practice it.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Budhhism is fundamentally a slave religion. If I were a powermongering emperor, I too would encourage a religion which taught apathy and poverty to my population.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Going back to translations of the earliest Pali texts, Buddhism is a religion of aspiration...The aspiration to be as the Buddha was, to achieve enlightenment as the Buddha did. It is a philosophy whereby a deep and fundamental understanding of the impermanence of all things is the foundation for further philosphical explorations which leads us to a deeper apreciation of the world around us.

BUt like the rest of the worlds great religions, it has become overgrown with the rank weeds of useless metaphysical speculation that clouds the deeper fundamentals.

If you want a slave religion, look to the Bible. Slavery is condoned.

 

[smellthecoffee]

dogma aside...I wouldn't subscribe to a doctrine written or translated by politicions and preists. Have a look at their behavior now. If there is a God he chooses his representatives very poorly indeed!

 

[Avatar4321]

I just want to say Im sorry if I havent responded to any comments directed at me...This thread is alot bigger today than it was yesterday and it will take me alot of time to go through to see what i missed.

 

[Joz]

Originally posted by SinisterMotives

Why ask me? I don't believe God condemns behavior that people have no control over. You should ask that question of the people who are making that assertion. B]

WHAT behaviors do you not have control of?

 

[Joz]

Originally posted by wonderwench
I addressed this topic earlier in the thread. The Bible was written and translated by humans over centuries. There are many things incorporated into the text which are dogma and reflective of the mores of the times. We have the faculty of reason - and should use it to assess what is revelant as an eternal truth, and what is the dogma inserted with it.

Translated thru the ages by 'people', NOWHERE in the Bible does it condone homosexuality. Neither in the Old Testament or the New. If you want texts, I'll be happy to provide you with them.

 

[SinisterMotives]

Originally posted by Joz
WHAT behaviors do you not have control of?

Specifically, one does not have control over whether they're born straight or gay. Granted, one could argue that people of either or both orientations could completely abstain from having sex if they had an extreme amount of willpower, but how realistic is that?

 

[Avatar4321]

"Specifically, one does not have control over whether they're born straight or gay. Granted, one could argue that people of either or both orientations could completely abstain from having sex if they had an extreme amount of willpower, but how realistic is that?"

Well thats probably because no one is born gay. There is no reason to believe in biological because if it was it would have been culled out of the human gene pool centuries ago. There is a reason they call it Sexual "Preference" you know.

As for extreme amount of willpower. it doesnt take that much will power to abstain. especially if you know that in a few years you will probably be married. Problem is few people ever try it.

 

[wonderwench]

Originally posted by Joz
Translated thru the ages by 'people', NOWHERE in the Bible does it condone homosexuality. Neither in the Old Testament or the New. If you want texts, I'll be happy to provide you with them.

The Bible is littered with prohibitions on behavior which are reflective of the mores and society of the time.

Or do you think that women who braid their hair and wear gold wedding bands should go to hell?