Why are Tea Partiers opposed to having a safety net?

[Foxfyre]

In other words, why do you think you'll never need to be supported through rough times? Our economy is rapidly changing - moving towards a knowledge based system. Outsourcing to third world countries is killing our manufacturing base and thanks to trade agreements, no one profits from that except the multinational corporations. Illegal immigrants fill the niche for unskilled labor. Few people have enough land or have sufficient water rights to produce their own food. And most middle class Americans are drowning in a sea of mortgage and credit card debt.

Tea Partiers are not at all opposed to safety nets. In fact, I am guessing that Tea Partiers give more blood, volunteer their time and talents in charitable organizations, and willingly give of their personal property/money at a much higher percentage than ANY other group.

In fact, I can't think of a single Tea Partier who does not believe and who is not willing to support a moral society caring for the truly helpless and those in need.

But Tea Partiers, more than any other group, know that no matter how well intended it might have originally been, the federal government providing the safety net is the most inefficient, ineffective, expensive, socially devastating, and promoting of corruption way to do that.

 

[Avatar4321]

The title of this thread started out with LIE

why is it some people can't ever be HONEST and have to lie for effect?

Because they realize, even at a subconcious level that their position is not sustained by the truth and so they figure the only way to convince others is to lie.

Personally, I dont understand that. I may make mistakes and be wrong, but im never going to go out and lie about my position. Heck, Ive been working on eliminating sarcasm from my speech because at the base of it dishonesty is involved in much sarcasm.

We need to be people who are willing to sacrifice our pride for the truth, regardless of whether we like that truth or not.

 

[JoeNormal]

You realize that corporations only have the power we give them, right? If we dont like what they do or how they treat people, then we are under no obligation to purchase their goods and services.

Ever shop at Walmart? You know they treat their employees like shit, right?

You have heard of entry-level jobs, haven't you?

Yes, and I've had more than my fair share. Unfortunately, these entry level jobs are being filled with the elderly and parental aged people as second jobs. That's where our economy is right now.

 

[Oddball]

Ever shop at Walmart? You know they treat their employees like shit, right?

You have heard of entry-level jobs, haven't you?

Yes, and I've had more than my fair share. Unfortunately, these entry level jobs are being filled with the elderly and parental aged people as second jobs. That's where our economy is right now.

Leave it to the socialist to look down their nose on people going out and earning their way in the world, rather than gleefully joining the moocher class.

Good job, Dudley.

 

[Dr.Drock]

You have heard of entry-level jobs, haven't you?

Yes, and I've had more than my fair share. Unfortunately, these entry level jobs are being filled with the elderly and parental aged people as second jobs. That's where our economy is right now.

Leave it to the socialist to look down their nose on people going out and earning their way in the world, rather than gleefully joining the moocher class.

Good job, Dudley.

He's a tough one to figure out. I bet he loves unemployment benefits and pats people on the back for using this wonderful use of gov't, then attacks and mocks people for doing tough jobs.

Lazy and doing nothing=great, a middle class person working hard=terrible.

 

[grunt11b]

In other words, why do you think you'll never need to be supported through rough times? Our economy is rapidly changing - moving towards a knowledge based system. Outsourcing to third world countries is killing our manufacturing base and thanks to trade agreements, no one profits from that except the multinational corporations. Illegal immigrants fill the niche for unskilled labor. Few people have enough land or have sufficient water rights to produce their own food. And most middle class Americans are drowning in a sea of mortgage and credit card debt.

Does the constitution afford you a safety net?

 

[JoeNormal]

You have heard of entry-level jobs, haven't you?

Yes, and I've had more than my fair share. Unfortunately, these entry level jobs are being filled with the elderly and parental aged people as second jobs. That's where our economy is right now.

Leave it to the socialist to look down their nose on people going out and earning their way in the world, rather than gleefully joining the moocher class.

Good job, Dudley.

All that shit work has a cost. They could be learning a trade or spending time with their families. But keep those short term goggles on.

 

[JoeNormal]

Yes, and I've had more than my fair share. Unfortunately, these entry level jobs are being filled with the elderly and parental aged people as second jobs. That's where our economy is right now.

Leave it to the socialist to look down their nose on people going out and earning their way in the world, rather than gleefully joining the moocher class.

Good job, Dudley.

He's a tough one to figure out. I bet he loves unemployment benefits and pats people on the back for using this wonderful use of gov't, then attacks and mocks people for doing tough jobs.

Lazy and doing nothing=great, a middle class person working hard=terrible.

What a perfect example of conservative black and white thinking.

I admire people who will do what it takes to survive. My whole point is that this race to the bottom will not end well.

 

[Oddball]

Yes, and I've had more than my fair share. Unfortunately, these entry level jobs are being filled with the elderly and parental aged people as second jobs. That's where our economy is right now.

Leave it to the socialist to look down their nose on people going out and earning their way in the world, rather than gleefully joining the moocher class.

Good job, Dudley.

All that shit work has a cost. They could be learning a trade or spending time with their families. But keep those short term goggles on.

Or they could be working those jobs to pay to out-of-pocket to learn that trade.

Or they could be working those jobs to pay their taxes, while the other spouse works to keep the family eating and living indoors.

Or they could be working those jobs to just have something to do, rather than sitting around and collecting handouts.

Unlike lolberal snobs like you, I don't disparage people who work rather than mooching.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Yes, and I've had more than my fair share. Unfortunately, these entry level jobs are being filled with the elderly and parental aged people as second jobs. That's where our economy is right now.

Leave it to the socialist to look down their nose on people going out and earning their way in the world, rather than gleefully joining the moocher class.

Good job, Dudley.

All that shit work has a cost. They could be learning a trade or spending time with their families. But keep those short term goggles on.

What can gov't do to help those people no longer need a 2nd job? Force every job to pay at least 50k a year?

You know what would happen after that, right?

 

[JoeNormal]

In other words, why do you think you'll never need to be supported through rough times? Our economy is rapidly changing - moving towards a knowledge based system. Outsourcing to third world countries is killing our manufacturing base and thanks to trade agreements, no one profits from that except the multinational corporations. Illegal immigrants fill the niche for unskilled labor. Few people have enough land or have sufficient water rights to produce their own food. And most middle class Americans are drowning in a sea of mortgage and credit card debt.

Does the constitution afford you a safety net?

Yes, I interpret the "promote the general welfare" clause in that way.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Leave it to the socialist to look down their nose on people going out and earning their way in the world, rather than gleefully joining the moocher class.

Good job, Dudley.

He's a tough one to figure out. I bet he loves unemployment benefits and pats people on the back for using this wonderful use of gov't, then attacks and mocks people for doing tough jobs.

Lazy and doing nothing=great, a middle class person working hard=terrible.

What a perfect example of conservative black and white thinking.

I admire people who will do what it takes to survive. My whole point is that this race to the bottom will not end well.

And I'm telling you more gov't only hurts.

Do some research on the children of welfare and food stamp recipients and find out what % of them end up on the same gov't programs.

Maybe if we didn't make the average joe pay for all these worthless gov't programs, they could afford to live easier.

 

[Foxfyre]

Leave it to the socialist to look down their nose on people going out and earning their way in the world, rather than gleefully joining the moocher class.

Good job, Dudley.

All that shit work has a cost. They could be learning a trade or spending time with their families. But keep those short term goggles on.

What can gov't do to help those people no longer need a 2nd job? Force every job to pay at least 50k a year?

You know what would happen after that, right?

I actually have some experience with those low end jobs. I've worked a LOT of them over my ever increasingly long life. Being married to a guy who got transferred to new cities a LOT, we mutually agreed that I was the one who quit her job so that he could continue to move up the corporate ladder. That meant I would leave a good paying job and start over with a bottom of the ladder 'shit job' in the next town. More often than not at or near minimum wage.

But you know what? I never stayed there. It didn't take long to demonstrate that I was capable of more responsibility and pay and either got it, or I was able to move to a different, better paying job. And almost everywhere we went, I wound up with a good paying job that I loved. (And hated to quit to move to the next place.)

But none of it--not the shittiest of the shit jobs--was worthless. I learned something in every single one that could be put to use somewhere else. No honorable work is degrading or beneath us. There are no 'shit jobs' as they wouldn't exist if they were not providing a service needed or wanted by others.

 

[JoeNormal]

Leave it to the socialist to look down their nose on people going out and earning their way in the world, rather than gleefully joining the moocher class.

Good job, Dudley.

All that shit work has a cost. They could be learning a trade or spending time with their families. But keep those short term goggles on.

Or they could be working those jobs to pay to out-of-pocket to learn that trade.

Or they could be working those jobs to pay their taxes, while the other spouse works to keep the family eating and living indoors.

Or they could be working those jobs to just have something to do, rather than sitting around and collecting handouts.

Unlike lolberal snobs like you, I don't disparage people who work rather than mooching.

It's about the finite amount of time that people have for various endeavors. People make mistakes. They might not see the benefit of studying hard when they're young and have the time to do so. Then as they find that their skills don't amount to didley squat and would like to pursue some worthwhile training, they're trapped by circumstance. You think that's good?

 

[Darkwind]

There is no race to the bottom, except for the artificially created race brought about by the government sucking the energy from the economy. People always have, and always will, do what is required of them to survive until things turn around. To suggest that people taking employment that is below their skill set, or to help to make ends meet as a race to the bottom is really a short sighted outlook on the economy. Perhaps it is an acknowledgment that the policies and interference of government into the private sector has not, and will not, provide our economy an opportunity to recover.

If that is the case, then the people who are working at the Wal*marts and Coscos and other lower wage jobs are actually ahead of the game and are now filling top notch jobs in the paradigm shift to this kind of wage level.

On the other hand, I prefer to think that sooner or later, the economy will overcome the impetus to remain mediocre in the face of of such economic need and will, despite the government, find ways to improve. If we can get a seismic shift in policy with regard to business in this country, and an actual reduction in energy sapping regulations, I think that we, as a nation, can come roaring back. That will return the minimum wage jobs to those who are just entering the market, and allow for those who wish to improve their position in life, the ability to move up the ladder.

But note this. A man who is 40 years old working for a minimum wage job before the economic downturn will continue to work for minimum wage jobs, because the problem is not with the economy or the job sector, but with him.

 

[JoeNormal]

He's a tough one to figure out. I bet he loves unemployment benefits and pats people on the back for using this wonderful use of gov't, then attacks and mocks people for doing tough jobs.

Lazy and doing nothing=great, a middle class person working hard=terrible.

What a perfect example of conservative black and white thinking.

I admire people who will do what it takes to survive. My whole point is that this race to the bottom will not end well.

And I'm telling you more gov't only hurts.

Do some research on the children of welfare and food stamp recipients and find out what % of them end up on the same gov't programs.

Maybe if we didn't make the average joe pay for all these worthless gov't programs, they could afford to live easier.

Mitt Romney stated a factoid WRT taxes. He claims that the bottom 50% of the people don't pay any. If that's true, a tax break for the average Joe isn't going to free up much discretionary income.

 

[JoeNormal]

There is no race to the bottom, except for the artificially created race brought about by the government sucking the energy from the economy. People always have, and always will, do what is required of them to survive until things turn around. To suggest that people taking employment that is below their skill set, or to help to make ends meet as a race to the bottom is really a short sighted outlook on the economy. Perhaps it is an acknowledgment that the policies and interference of government into the private sector has not, and will not, provide our economy an opportunity to recover.

If that is the case, then the people who are working at the Wal*marts and Coscos and other lower wage jobs are actually ahead of the game and are now filling top notch jobs in the paradigm shift to this kind of wage level.

On the other hand, I prefer to think that sooner or later, the economy will overcome the impetus to remain mediocre in the face of of such economic need and will, despite the government, find ways to improve. If we can get a seismic shift in policy with regard to business in this country, and an actual reduction in energy sapping regulations, I think that we, as a nation, can come roaring back. That will return the minimum wage jobs to those who are just entering the market, and allow for those who wish to improve their position in life, the ability to move up the ladder.

But note this. A man who is 40 years old working for a minimum wage job before the economic downturn will continue to work for minimum wage jobs, because the problem is not with the economy or the job sector, but with him.

Ok, so what regulations do you see as energy sapping? I'm not saying that there aren't any but which ones are the worst?

 

[Darkwind]

All that shit work has a cost. They could be learning a trade or spending time with their families. But keep those short term goggles on.

Or they could be working those jobs to pay to out-of-pocket to learn that trade.

Or they could be working those jobs to pay their taxes, while the other spouse works to keep the family eating and living indoors.

Or they could be working those jobs to just have something to do, rather than sitting around and collecting handouts.

Unlike lolberal snobs like you, I don't disparage people who work rather than mooching.

It's about the finite amount of time that people have for various endeavors. People make mistakes. They might not see the benefit of studying hard when they're young and have the time to do so. Then as they find that their skills don't amount to didley squat and would like to pursue some worthwhile training, they're trapped by circumstance. You think that's good?

They are only trapped by their unwillingness to put forth the effort to improve their position in life. It may take a half decade, but anything worthwhile does not happen overnight.

Time must be put into the system to get the rewards in return.

 

[Avatar4321]

Because corporations don't have any power to run roughshod over Me. You do realize that a vast majority of business in this country are small businesses filling niche demands for the people?

I will never understand how it is that business gets demonized. They have no power, no guns, no ability to levy a law against people and take away any of their rights. Government does.

Businesses solve the problem of a need that society has. We need a better way to communicate over distances. A business provides that. We have a need to feed more and more people.. A business provides that. We have a need to move freely and fast to conduct our own personal business, a business provides hat.

In My entire 51 years, I have never been run over, abused, or harmed by a business or even a corporation.

I have by My government, however.

Classic misunderstanding of the relationship between business and government. To say corporations have no power or less power than the individual denies the fact that corporations are a group of drumroll....people.

Why don't you tell me about the time the government came after you, guns loaded and hauled you away.

I take it that you're a small business owner? Here's an example of how a corporation will eventually harm you. One of my in-laws owned a video rental business at a time when that industry was exploding and he was lucky enough to be located in an area that was growing like crazy. Things were good for a while during the golden years when he was beneath the radar of Blockbuster and Hollywood Video. Then the big guys came in. Now, he does whatever odd jobs a man in his 70's can do and ekes out a living that's about 10% of what it was back in the day.

What was preventing your in-law from becoming onf of the bigger corporations providing video services to the community? Why exactly are blockbuster or hollywood videos bad for providing a better service to the community than your in-law did?

Im sure you are familiar with the current dvd business structure. Netflixs and RedBox nearly put Blockbuster out of business (Blockbuster has since changed their model to reflect the changing market). why? Because Netflix & RedBox provided a better services to customers. Of course, Netflix has fumbled on that and is losing business now. But business is dynamic. It's all about who can provide the best and cheapest goods or services to others.

 

[Lovebears65]

I am not opposed to a safety net , what I am opposed to people abusing it and there is a lot that does