Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[manifold]

Birth: moving three feet to the left

you're dodging

Equating birth to moving three feet to the left is no less disingenuous than equating a fetus to a lump of nerves.

Alright, four feet. Or fifteen. It depends how far away the sink is. I suppose.

If you have an argument, make it. What fundamental aspect of the baby changes during when it moves a number of feet through space?

Al already asked whether you want to go with JD_2B's breath argument. (What if I kill it before it breathes, but after it's out?) What if one toe remains inside? Do I have to wait for the afterbirth?

You're refusing to acknowledge a valid line of reasoning,

No, I'm not. You haven't made one. You said it's different at birth because_______________ something changes at birth. But you can't tell me what it is. It just is because it is because it changes at birth because it's born. You sound like a YEC explaining how it knows the bible is the word of god because it says it is.

You're refusing to acknowledge that the trade-off between criminalizing abortion or not is a very different proposition to consider than the trade-off between criminalizing murder or not.

Birth should be objective enough for even you to understand my line of reasoning.

You asked for a defense of the pro-choice position that does not require dishonesty. I've given you one. You can disagree with the value judgements I've applied en route to arriving at said position, but to deny that it's honest and consistent, would be dishonest on your part.

 

[rikules]

Well first you will have to overturn the law of the land. .

No, I don't

Yes you do, abortion is legal. Unless you are referring to the pro-death wing of the pro-life crowd.

"Unless you are referring to the pro-death wing of the pro-life crowd."

that would be most of them

 

[ABikerSailor]

I don't think it's "right" for Abortion short of the reasons of Rape and Maternal (death) risk. That is my opinion.

Why is killing an unborn child okay if the mother was raped but not if she was just stupid?

How does your parents' relationship determine whether it's okay to kill you? You never presented any cogent arguments to make that case.

So....lemmie get this straight.........

You think that if a woman is raped, she must carry the memory of the horror around inside her, moving, and reminding her every day of what happened? Then.......send the kid up for adoption?

You really are a soul less bastard.

 

[JBeukema]

You're refusing to acknowledge that the trade-off between criminalizing abortion or not is a very different proposition to consider than the trade-off between criminalizing murder or not.

Murder is always illegal, genius. By definition.

Abortion is murder if you have an abortion somewhere the law considers it to be murder.

Murder, like manslaughter is a legal term meaning a class of homicide deemed to be criminal.

Birth should be objective enough for even you to understand my line of reasoning.

What changes when the baby moves three feet to the left? Do you even have an argument?

You asked for a defense of the pro-choice position that does not require dishonesty. I've given you one.

No, you haven't. You've said said 'birth' over and over again like a retarded parrot.

 

[Ravi]

So you admit most abortions are done because the baby is inconvenient? We've made progress.

Why do you lie so much...it chips away at what little credibility you have.

That's what you said

They don't want to grow up or get another job or ask family for help... they're an emotional or financial burden

they're too inconvenient

That's what you said

I've never argued that women have abortions mostly for rape. You can call it inconvenient if you wish...I have never claimed and in fact have never seen anyone else claim that most abortions are the product of rape.

 

[JBeukema]

I don't think it's "right" for Abortion short of the reasons of Rape and Maternal (death) risk. That is my opinion.

Why is killing an unborn child okay if the mother was raped but not if she was just stupid?

How does your parents' relationship determine whether it's okay to kill you? You never presented any cogent arguments to make that case.

So....lemmie get this straight.........

You think that if a woman is raped, she must carry the memory of the horror around inside her, moving, and reminding her every day of what happened? Then.......send the kid up for adoption?

You really are a soul less bastard.

Once again, the pro-abortionists lie, make baseless accusations, and appeal to emotion

If she waits that long, clearly she had no problem carrying the rapist's baby. To then turn around and say she does? She had plenty of time to make that decision.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Why is killing an unborn child okay if the mother was raped but not if she was just stupid?

How does your parents' relationship determine whether it's okay to kill you? You never presented any cogent arguments to make that case.

So....lemmie get this straight.........

You think that if a woman is raped, she must carry the memory of the horror around inside her, moving, and reminding her every day of what happened? Then.......send the kid up for adoption?

You really are a soul less bastard.

Once again, the pro-abortionists lie, make baseless accusations, and appeal to emotion

If she waits that long, clearly she had no problem carrying the rapist's baby. To then turn around and say she does? She had plenty of time to make that decision.

Me personally? I think the "morning after pill" should be standard issue in every rape kit in the United States.

I also think it should be available to 17 year olds and up. Would prevent a lot of problems.

However...........telling someone what they can and can't do with their own lives is pure bullshit. I mean........if you do something like that, in my opinion, that's strictly between you and your Creator.

I mean......God gave us free will, which means we have the ability to choose sin or not. How do YOU know that maybe after some girl's first abortion, she may use that moment of despair and pain to actually connnect with Father.

 

[JBeukema]

However...........telling someone what they can and can't do with their own lives is pure bullshit. I mean........if you do something like that, in my opinion, that's strictly between you and your Creator.

Me shooting you in the face is between me and my creator? At what point does homicide become a social matter?

 

[manifold]

You're refusing to acknowledge that the trade-off between criminalizing abortion or not is a very different proposition to consider than the trade-off between criminalizing murder or not.

Murder is always illegal, genius. By definition.

A definition you are attempting to re-write.

Abortion is murder if you have an abortion somewhere the law considers it to be murder.

Right, and if it were up to me I'd draw that line at birth. But I'm ok with the legal compromises that have pushed the line a bit closer toward conception.

You asked for a defense of the pro-choice position that does not require dishonesty. I've given you one.

No, you haven't. You've said said 'birth' over and over again like a retarded parrot.

I'm telling you where I draw the line. That fact that you draw it in a different place doesn't make my reasoning any less sound, no matter how much of a tantrum you want to throw about it.


Still waiting for you to actually address my original request, so I'll post it again:

Convince me that I should value the life of someone else's fetus more than the child's own mother? So much more in fact that I'm willing to incarcerate a pregnant woman and force her to give birth to her child? Because if it's really about the 'value' of life, this is the trade-off we're talking about. Don't tell me that putting people in jail after the fact on this one is for the greater good, because it isn't.

Now bear in mind that I already value the life of a birthed human more than enough to agree with outlawing homicide, so please let's dispense with that distraction.

So far I'm not convinced that my value judgement is out of balance. And suggesting that this debate isn't about a value judgement isn't winning you any points with me.

 

[ABikerSailor]

However...........telling someone what they can and can't do with their own lives is pure bullshit. I mean........if you do something like that, in my opinion, that's strictly between you and your Creator.

Me shooting you in the face is between me and my creator? At what point does homicide become a social matter?

Yes, actually. Only trouble is, I'm gonna get to Him before you do, and I'm gonna tell Him that it was you that murdered me.

Yep. It'll be between just you two, because by then, I'll have already finished my part of the conversation.

 

[Ravi]

Why is killing an unborn child okay if the mother was raped but not if she was just stupid?

How does your parents' relationship determine whether it's okay to kill you? You never presented any cogent arguments to make that case.

So....lemmie get this straight.........

You think that if a woman is raped, she must carry the memory of the horror around inside her, moving, and reminding her every day of what happened? Then.......send the kid up for adoption?

You really are a soul less bastard.

Once again, the pro-abortionists lie, make baseless accusations, and appeal to emotion

If she waits that long, clearly she had no problem carrying the rapist's baby. To then turn around and say she does? She had plenty of time to make that decision.

It isn't up to you to decide if a woman gives birth or not. It never has been and it never will be...

Again I ask, why are you so obsessed with this topic? Methinks you are insanely jealous that women have a power that you do not have and it eats away at you constantly.

Boo hoo.

 

[manifold]

So....lemmie get this straight.........

You think that if a woman is raped, she must carry the memory of the horror around inside her, moving, and reminding her every day of what happened? Then.......send the kid up for adoption?

You really are a soul less bastard.

Once again, the pro-abortionists lie, make baseless accusations, and appeal to emotion

If she waits that long, clearly she had no problem carrying the rapist's baby. To then turn around and say she does? She had plenty of time to make that decision.

It isn't up to you to decide if a woman gives birth or not. It never has been and it never will be...

Again I ask, why are you so obsessed with this topic? Methinks you are insanely jealous that women have a power that you do not have and it eats away at you constantly.

Boo hoo.

Uterus envy?

From now on, we must all call him Loretta.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I think that it's dis-honest, or at least smug to call anyone "pro abortion," so starting a dialogue from that sort of tone expecting honesty/being forthright? I dunno man.

I think it is dishonest, not to mention idiotic, to deny that some people are pro abortion.

Maybe, but pro choice does not equal being pro abortion. That's inaccurate.

I never said it did. I just object to idiots telling me no one is pro abortion. Planned Parenthood is obviously pro abortion, even though most of the people who work there are not.

 

[JBeukema]

I'm telling you where I draw the line. That fact that you draw it in a different place doesn't make my reasoning any less sound

You've no reasoning. All you've said is birth. You've made no argument for why birth changes anything.

 

[JBeukema]

However...........telling someone what they can and can't do with their own lives is pure bullshit. I mean........if you do something like that, in my opinion, that's strictly between you and your Creator.

Me shooting you in the face is between me and my creator? At what point does homicide become a social matter?

Yes, actually. Only trouble is, I'm gonna get to Him before you do, and I'm gonna tell Him that it was you that murdered me.

Yep. It'll be between just you two, because by then, I'll have already finished my part of the conversation.

So ABS is on record supporting the decriminalization of all murder.

A batshit insane position, but at least an internally consistent one.

 

[manifold]

I'm telling you where I draw the line. That fact that you draw it in a different place doesn't make my reasoning any less sound

You've no reasoning. All you've said is birth. You've made no argument for why birth changes anything.

It's a pretty material change in status dude. Challenging the obvious is not a very compelling argument.

 

[Dr Grump]

If one's position is defensible, shouldn't you be able to defend it with logical, cogent, well-thought-out arguments? Shouldn't you be able to discuss the matter in an honest and intelligent manner?

A blastocyst/foetus/etc is an organism. It is alive and it is genetically human.* These are verifiable, objective, demonstrable scientific facts. It is all a matter of basic biology.

Therefore, the child is be definition a living human organism. We are, therefore, dealing with a human life. To 'abort' a pregnancy is to bring about the end of those physiological and biological processes that identify this human organism as alive- it is to bring about the child's death.

It is therefore a scientific fact that when we speak of abortion, we speak of ending human life. As we are also humans, we are therefore dealing with a case of homicide- homicide is defined as the killing of a human being by another human being.

If your position is defensible- if the ending of this life is a defensible ac- then you should be able to demonstrate why this is justifiable or acceptable without denying the facts of what it is you support. When pretend that we're not dealing with a living human being, you reveal that one or both of the following is true:
-You do not know what it is you advocate; you are guided purely by your emotion and your programming. You should shut your fucking mouth and not speak about things you do not understand

-You know your position is indefensible; you must lie about what it is you advocate because you cannot honestly defend your position





[S
*Yes, I know a foetus can die in utero without the woman's body expelling it [see: stone foetus] and that humans aren't the only species to experience pregnancy. Given the context, such things should go unsaid. Let us exercise a little critical thinking here.[/SIZE]

How can you want an honest debate when the very title of your thread is dishonest?

 

[JBeukema]

I'm telling you where I draw the line. That fact that you draw it in a different place doesn't make my reasoning any less sound

You've no reasoning. All you've said is birth. You've made no argument for why birth changes anything.

It's a pretty material change in status dude. Challenging the obvious is not a very compelling argument.

So you've no argument...

 

[Anguille]

The only emotional ones are you pro-abortionists pretending most women get abortions for rape, comparing personal responsibility to slavery, declaring that only serial killers can have an opinion on serial murder, and refusing to acknowledge basic facts of biology- even going so far as to declare that one can become a non-human when in the hospital and then magically be a human again when they get off life support- all in an effort to avoid admitting what it is you support.

If killing an unborn child isn't wrong, why can't you admit you support killing unborn children?

If there are such things as unborn children, then you are an undead adult.

 

[NYcarbineer]

If one's position is defensible, shouldn't you be able to defend it with logical, cogent, well-thought-out arguments? Shouldn't you be able to discuss the matter in an honest and intelligent manner?

A blastocyst/foetus/etc is an organism. It is alive and it is genetically human.* These are verifiable, objective, demonstrable scientific facts. It is all a matter of basic biology.

Therefore, the child is be definition a living human organism. We are, therefore, dealing with a human life. To 'abort' a pregnancy is to bring about the end of those physiological and biological processes that identify this human organism as alive- it is to bring about the child's death.

It is therefore a scientific fact that when we speak of abortion, we speak of ending human life. As we are also humans, we are therefore dealing with a case of homicide- homicide is defined as the killing of a human being by another human being.

If your position is defensible- if the ending of this life is a defensible ac- then you should be able to demonstrate why this is justifiable or acceptable without denying the facts of what it is you support. When pretend that we're not dealing with a living human being, you reveal that one or both of the following is true:
-You do not know what it is you advocate; you are guided purely by your emotion and your programming. You should shut your fucking mouth and not speak about things you do not understand

-You know your position is indefensible; you must lie about what it is you advocate because you cannot honestly defend your position






*Yes, I know a foetus can die in utero without the woman's body expelling it [see: stone foetus] and that humans aren't the only species to experience pregnancy. Given the context, such things should go unsaid. Let us exercise a little critical thinking here.

The greater good of the 2 options, 1) allowing a woman an opportunity to terminate a pregnancy, or, 2) forcing every woman who becomes pregnant to have a child, no matter what the circumstances, under threat of prosecution for a capital crime,

is the former, #1. Quite simple. Government's role is to enforce the greater good.