Why did Reagan Administration grant tax-free religious status to Scientology?

[Cecilie1200]

isn't it ODD how Liberals play the First Amendment?

Speaking of religion.

Reagan was far more skilled at "playing" religious card than any president in modern history.

First consider the real Reagan.

He passed the most liberal abortion policy ever passed as governor of california.

He was estranged from two of his children .... (family man?)

He was the only divorced man to become president ... (family man?)

He took an oath before Jesus Christ ... (till death do us part? family man?)

Nancy, his 2nd (3rd?) wife, was a notorious anti-religious astrology fanatic (whose children have all admitted that their family never went to church - and that Grover Norquist's Reagan Legacy project engaged in historical revisionism in their claims that Reagan went to church.)

Reagan's electoral success - in 1980 - hinged on parts of the South and Heartland. Indeed, Reagan ran on a pro-family & pro-religious "values" populism in order to tap into Red State backlash over the Civili Rights Movement, the bra burning sexual revolution, and the secular excesses of the moral relativist/multiculturalist Left. It was brilliant fucking politics.

Nancy Reagan hated Pat Robertson and the Moral Majority. She had MASSIVE conflicts with organized religion. She supported stem cell research. She famously consulted an astrologist after Reagan was shot - that is, she didn't consult Christ or go to church.

The Reagan's were emphatically not religious, yet Reagan ran as staunch religious conservative.

Please turn off talk radio son. We need to get you studying actually history.

You call this mishmash of puerile judgementalism and utter bullshit "history", and actually tout it as "superior to talk radio" to someone? Idiot, please.

No matter how often I'm treated to a vision of absolute hypocrisy, it never ceases to amaze and revolt me. When Christianity is interested in your views of what constitutes a "real" Christian - or Conservatism is interested in your views of "real" conservatism, for that matter - I'm sure they'll call you. And I'm sure I wish you'd hold your self-righteous breath waiting for that call.

Learn the difference between "history" and "propaganda". It's probably the only one of the many things you incorrectly addressed in this post that you even HOPE to have enough brain cells to comprehend.

 

[JoeB131]

It was reported at the time that the meeting between administration officials and Scientology officials lasted as little as 10 minutes.

Why would Reagan grant tax-free status to a bunch of kooks?

As opposed to all the other kooks?

Why does any Church get a tax exemption?

Why is Evil Space Lord Zenu and Body Thetans any more ridiculous as walking on water or getting golden tablets or Mohammed going to the Mountain in one day?

That's not the point. It's their illegal activities. Read into the stories of some of their former members. They can't all be lying. The following is a good place to start.

Ex-Scientology Kids

Okay, but again, what the Catholic Chruch did in hiding pedophile priests was definitely an "illegal activity".

The only thing that upsets me about Scientology is the gall of the fraud. But we are going to elect a member of the second biggest fraud (Mormonism) as president, and even libs get upset with me when I point out the fraud.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It was reported at the time that the meeting between administration officials and Scientology officials lasted as little as 10 minutes.

Why would Reagan grant tax-free status to a bunch of kooks?

Because the constitution does not give the federal government the power to define religion?

Even by your standards this is a failure, you should ask the mods to delete it.

Seems to me that the only reason this is called a religion is precisely because the Federal government gave it's blessing to be considered one, by granting tax-free status.

Why am I wrong?

Same reason you're ALWAYS wrong: because you're an ignorant mouthbreather.

Scientology is called a religion because it is one. It doesn't need the federal government's approval - or yours, however much you seem to believe every fucking thing on the planet requires your vote on it - to be what its practitioners believe. It only needs the federal government's approval to not pay taxes, and shocking as it may seem to shallow-minded twits like you, the definition of "religon" is NOT "doesn't pay federal taxes".

 

[Cecilie1200]

Nancy was into astrology so we are lucky the Reagan's only changed scientology into a religion, they could have easily changed astrology too, and worse, as anyone with half a brain can see both have ology as a word ending so it would have been easy to change both into sciences. If they had changed both into sciences all the school textbooks would probably have to be changed.

Always good to hear the pronouncements of people who have no fucking clue how anything works, but like to speak like authorities anyway.

Why don't you tell us, oh expert, how a religion acquires tax-exempt status, and what relation to that procedure the President has? Then perhaps you can go about explaining your asinine assumption that Ronald Reagan had anything to do with "changing Scientology into a religion" and how it fits into the facts. And no, saying, "Synthaholic said so" will not work. Even Synthaholic has had to admit how fucking stupid his OP sounded, not that you bothered to catch up with that before opening your mouth.

 

[Cecilie1200]

i would think a "religion" has to have a God or Gods to worship....who do these guys worship.....L.Ron Hubbard?....hey just askin....

There is not a requirement for a God or Gods to be a religion.

Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.

Daoism is a good example of a Godless religion.

so if i worship money.....i should be exempt from taxes.....right?....

Only if you want to start a non-profit organization in accordance with applicable IRS tax codes.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It was reported at the time that the meeting between administration officials and Scientology officials lasted as little as 10 minutes.

Why would Reagan grant tax-free status to a bunch of kooks?

because we don't get to decide what is a religion and what isn't?

don't get me wrong... i've never figured out why anyone follows a 'religion' supposedly based on being a psychological 'clear' that was started by a science fiction writer who killed himself.

never quite made sense to me.

Apparently the government does. And by doing so, they violate the establishment clause by favoring some "religions" over others.

So the question I keep asking: what makes one religion worthy of government approval over another?

No, dimwit, they don't. The government gets to decide what meets their definition of a tax-exempt religious organization. I realize that leftist government-worshippers can't understand the difference between "existing" and "being recognized by the government", but there IS a difference.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It was reported at the time that the meeting between administration officials and Scientology officials lasted as little as 10 minutes.

Why would Reagan grant tax-free status to a bunch of kooks?

If we are going to allow tax exempt status for some religions, then we must allow them for all of them and the guidelines must be pretty liberal. If they are not, it could be construed as favoritism towards one group over another which could lead to a ruling where all religions lose their tax exempt status.

Like all tax laws, tax-exemption is available to anyone who wishes to meet the requirements for it. This will probably amaze you, but many religious groups DON'T WANT government recognition, and don't feel the need for it. I realize that leftists, in their veneration of all things government, will never grasp that fact, but it's true.

There is no "favoritism" in the IRS's tax-exemption codes. They are accessible by anyone who wants to access them, they aren't all that particularly hard to meet (that's "not hard" by tax regulation standards, of course), and they are applied in exactly the same way to everyone who applies for them.

 

[konradv]

As opposed to all the other kooks?

Why does any Church get a tax exemption?

Why is Evil Space Lord Zenu and Body Thetans any more ridiculous as walking on water or getting golden tablets or Mohammed going to the Mountain in one day?

That's not the point. It's their illegal activities. Read into the stories of some of their former members. They can't all be lying. The following is a good place to start.

Ex-Scientology Kids

Okay, but again, what the Catholic Chruch did in hiding pedophile priests was definitely an "illegal activity".

The only thing that upsets me about Scientology is the gall of the fraud. But we are going to elect a member of the second biggest fraud (Mormonism) as president, and even libs get upset with me when I point out the fraud.

The main difference I see between Catholicism and Scientology is aberration vs institutional ethos.

As for Mormonism, while I agree the "scripture" is made up, Mormons are great people. Scientologists, on the other hand, aren't. Check into the policy of "Fair Game", for example.

 

[tjvh]

It was reported at the time that the meeting between administration officials and Scientology officials lasted as little as 10 minutes.

Why would Reagan grant tax-free status to a bunch of kooks?

As opposed to all the other kooks?

Why does any Church get a tax exemption?

Why is Evil Space Lord Zenu and Body Thetans any more ridiculous as walking on water or getting golden tablets or Mohammed going to the Mountain in one day?

I agree! But what is the legal criteria for the tax-exempt status?

You really do not care, the entire premise of this thread was to attack Conservatives through Reagan's actions, and it completely backfired when Freedom of religion was brought up... But spin away, rather than admit your failed premise.

 

[Cecilie1200]

it could be construed as favoritism towards one group over another which could lead to a ruling where all religions lose their tax exempt status.

And this would be bad?

As bad as removing tax-exempt status from ALL the non-profits you leftists love SOOO MUCH, just because conservatives don't agree with them. How about it? You ante up YOUR sacred cows, BEFORE you go out condemning other people's. Put your labor unions where your mouth is.

 

[konradv]

it could be construed as favoritism towards one group over another which could lead to a ruling where all religions lose their tax exempt status.

And this would be bad?

As bad as removing tax-exempt status from ALL the non-profits you leftists love SOOO MUCH, just because conservatives don't agree with them. How about it? You ante up YOUR sacred cows, BEFORE you go out condemning other people's. Put your labor unions where your mouth is.

It's more a matter of not wanting to give tax exempt status to a criminal organization.

 

[JoeB131]

The main difference I see between Catholicism and Scientology is aberration vs institutional ethos.

As for Mormonism, while I agree the "scripture" is made up, Mormons are great people. Scientologists, on the other hand, aren't. Check into the policy of "Fair Game", for example.

You see, having grown up Catholic and gone to Catholic schools for a few years, I don't think the whole pedophile thing was an abberation.

I think it was the inevitable result of their recruiting policies.

The Clergy recruits them young. Usually when they teens or so. So they take them out, put them in this celibate environment of strict discipline and psychological conditioning, and then release them on their clergy when they are still in their sexual development, 14 year old boys who are probably gay.

Hilarity ensues.

I also don't think Mormons are "Great People". I've honestly never met creepier or least trustworthy people in my life.

Scientologists. Fair game. It was a fraud from day one. Everyone knew it was a fraud. But No one wants to say so. They might offend someone.

Or get sued.

 

[Cecilie1200]

If we are going to allow tax exempt status for some religions, then we must allow them for all of them and the guidelines must be pretty liberal. If they are not, it could be construed as favoritism towards one group over another which could lead to a ruling where all religions lose their tax exempt status.

I would be in favor of that. If not for tithes and donations, at least for property taxes.

How about we talk about it the day after every George Soros-funded organization loses THEIR tax-exempt status? Also labor unions and any other liberal 501(c)(3) you'd care to name. If you're so "worried" about favoritism, how about you spread your concern to ALL the groups getting tax-exempt status without having 100% support from the entire population? Or is it only when YOU don't like something that it's a bad thing? Yeah, that's what I thought.

 

[konradv]

The main difference I see between Catholicism and Scientology is aberration vs institutional ethos.

As for Mormonism, while I agree the "scripture" is made up, Mormons are great people. Scientologists, on the other hand, aren't. Check into the policy of "Fair Game", for example.

You see, having grown up Catholic and gone to Catholic schools for a few years, I don't think the whole pedophile thing was an abberation.

I think it was the inevitable result of their recruiting policies.

The Clergy recruits them young. Usually when they teens or so. So they take them out, put them in this celibate environment of strict discipline and psychological conditioning, and then release them on their clergy when they are still in their sexual development, 14 year old boys who are probably gay.

Hilarity ensues.

I also don't think Mormons are "Great People". I've honestly never met creepier or least trustworthy people in my life.

Scientologists. Fair game. It was a fraud from day one. Everyone knew it was a fraud. But No one wants to say so. They might offend someone.

Or get sued.

I also grew up Catholic and agree that a celibate priesthood can increase the chances of aberrant individuals, but it's not a systemic aim of the organization.

As for Mormons, my sample is small, but those I've met weren't evil. I'd be interested in knowing why you consider them untrustworthy.

Scientology, on the other hand, was a money making scam from Day One by taking advantage of alienated people's problems and insecurities. They then use intimidation and force to keep their members in line and to harass former members and critics.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Scientology isn't any nuttier than, say, Methodists, Lutherans,Morms, Catholics, or any of the rest of the believers in Magic Sky Fairies.

What I think is that we need to end the tax breaks to ALL religions.

Either that, or I need to incorporate as a religion.

But yes, its likely Ronnie Ray-Gun was already suffering from Alzheimers.

What I think is that you should actually start thinking. Any time you feel equipped, you just go right on ahead and do it.

Meanwhile, how do you feel about ending tax breaks to organizations I don't approve of? Or is that just a one-way ratchet, like every other hypocritical faux "concern" leftists have? The only groups that should be taxed are the ones YOU don't like?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Capt Obvious to the rescue!!!

This country has never taxed religion, a fact that, more than anything else, has kept religion out of the government. Yet some people fail to grasp the obvious, so I am forced to repeat it.

OK - again: what constitutes a religion?

What are the criteria in which to acquire tax-free status?

You're connected to the fucking Internet, twit. Look it up and stop expecting the rest of us to fill in the Asia-sized holes in your knowledge every time you step on your johnson.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I thought I made a point of saying 'administration'. I didn't claim that presidents decide these things all by their lonesome.

That said, I think I made a mistake: the battles with the IRS occurred throughout the Reagan administration, but the actual IRS decision was made during an impromptu meeting between Scientology dictator David Miscavige and IRS Commissioner Goldberg during the Bush administration, in 1991:

Scientology made the initial gesture toward a cease-fire when Miscavige, the church leader, paid an unscheduled visit to the IRS commissioner, Goldberg.

The first full account of that meeting and the events that followed inside the IRS was assembled from interviews, Scientology's own internal account, IRS documents and records in a pending suit brought by Tax Analysts, a nonprofit trade publisher, seeking the release of IRS agreements with Scientology and other tax-exempt organizations.

Feffer, a church lawyer since 1984, said he approached officials at the Justice Department and the IRS in 1991 with an offer to sit down and negotiate an end to the dispute.

The church's version of what followed is quite remarkable. Miscavige and Marty Rathbun, another church official, were walking past the IRS building in Washington with a few hours to spare one afternoon in late October 1991 when they decided to talk to Goldberg.

After signing the visitors' log at the imposing building on Constitution Avenue, the two men asked to see the commissioner. They told the security guard that they did not have an appointment but were certain Goldberg would want to see them. And, according to the church account, he did.

Goldberg said he could not discuss the meeting, although a former senior official confirmed that it occurred. An IRS spokesman said it would be unusual for someone to meet with the commissioner without an appointment.

Miscavige does not grant interviews, church officials said, but Rathbun said the Goldberg meeting was an opportunity for the church to offer to end its long dispute with the agency, including the dozens of suits brought against the IRS, in exchange for the exemptions that Scientology believed it deserved.

"Let's resolve everything," Rathbun recalled saying. "This is insane. It's reached insane levels."

Goldberg's response was also out of the ordinary. He created a special five-member working group to resolve the dispute, bypassing the agency's exempt organizations division, which normally handles those matters. Howard M. Schoenfeld, the IRS official picked as the committee's chairman in 1991, said later in a deposition in the Tax Analysts case that he recalled only one similar committee in 30 years at the agency.


​

I apologize for the error. But my main point is why are these kooks granted tax-exempt status?

Because they met the legal requirements to be a tax-exempt religious organization, and despite your apparent belief that you get a vote in what other people believe and how they live their lives, it's not for the federal government or anyone else to decide on the "legitimacy" of someone's religious beliefs.

It would be incredibly nice if leftists ever came to understand the true meaning of the phrases "No one asked for your opinion" and "No one cares what you think".

OK, Braniac: what are the legal requirements to be a tax-exempt religious organization?


I predict that this will be the last that we see of Cecilie in this thread.

I'm not your research assistant, ass wipe. Go look it up for yourself. IRS.gov, in case you're too stupid to figure out where to find it.

I predict this will either be the last we see of Synthaholic on this thread, or the last time he mentions this question.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Because they met the legal requirements to be a tax-exempt religious organization, and despite your apparent belief that you get a vote in what other people believe and how they live their lives, it's not for the federal government or anyone else to decide on the "legitimacy" of someone's religious beliefs.

It would be incredibly nice if leftists ever came to understand the true meaning of the phrases "No one asked for your opinion" and "No one cares what you think".

Apparently, you are so fucking stupid, you don't even see the contradiction in the two bolded statements.

Apparently YOU are so fucking stupid, you don't even see that the only "contradiction" exists in your head. Your inability to understand something doesn't make it incorrect.

Since I'm feeling charitable, I will explain it for you one more time: IRS tax-exemption does NOT confer "legitimacy" on a religion, any more than a marriage license confers it on a relationship. Only liberals think government sanction equals legitimacy, because only liberals worship the fucking government and think the world revolves around it.

Tax-exemption confers one thing, and only one thing, on a religious organization: tax exemption. And the IRS determines one thing and one thing only: whether or not an organization which chooses to apply for tax-exemption meets the requirements to receive it. Should you ever pull your head out of your ass long enough to actually FIND those requirements and read them, rather than sitting around on your dead ass, whining for someone else to tell you what they are, you will see that NONE of those requirements involve the IRS judging the actual beliefs of the organization for their validity. Also, the IRS does not choose who will or will not apply for tax-exempt status. Any group may apply which wishes to do so.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It was reported at the time that the meeting between administration officials and Scientology officials lasted as little as 10 minutes.

Why would Reagan grant tax-free status to a bunch of kooks?

As opposed to all the other kooks?

Why does any Church get a tax exemption?

Why is Evil Space Lord Zenu and Body Thetans any more ridiculous as walking on water or getting golden tablets or Mohammed going to the Mountain in one day?

I agree! But what is the legal criteria for the tax-exempt status?

Look it the fuck up, you lazy-ass piece-of-shit twerp! Who did your homework for you in school, loser?

Believe it or not, the Internet is NOT just for porn.

 

[JoeB131]

I also grew up Catholic and agree that a celibate priesthood can increase the chances of aberrant individuals, but it's not a systemic aim of the organization.

As for Mormons, my sample is small, but those I've met weren't evil. I'd be interested in knowing why you consider them untrustworthy.

Scientology, on the other hand, was a money making scam from Day One by taking advantage of alienated people's problems and insecurities. They then use intimidation and force to keep their members in line and to harass former members and critics.

They systematic aim of the celibate priesthood (which was not codified until 1076 by Pope Gregory VII) was to keep church property in church hands. They didn't want some priest taking that church land and leaving it to a son who had no interest in being a priest. So when the Church was scamming all those kings and dukes out of land for indulgences, they wanted to make sure they could keep it.

The sexual abberation was a side effect, and to be fair, they probably didn't know enough about human psychology and sexuality in the 11th century to know what they were getting into.

For Mormons, I'll admit, my sample is small, some I met in the military in the 1980's. But what I saw was so shocking and worrisome, I'd never trust one, And that was before I made a study of the absolute batshit crazy things they believe.

Scientology is a scam. I think we can both agree. But the problem is, if you ever establish a "truthiness" test for religion, where does it end. Can you devise a test that validates Catholicism and invalidates Scientology. You can't prove Jesus was Real any more than you can prove Space Lord Xenu was dropping Thetans into volcanoes.