Zone1 Why do Protestants always believe their pastors rather than the 2000 year old CHURCH Christ established?

[K9Buck]

Luke 18:16

"But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

Jesus was talking about being humble, like little children.

You may remember that, as a small child, you could easily forgive a friend and then resume playing as if nothing had happened. We lose that amazing trait as we age. In the verse below Jesus tells us that we must become like children, we cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. My guess is that, upon death, we will all be transformed so that we are, indeed, like children. My guess is that we will retain knowledge and wisdom but lose our proudful, unforgiving, egotistical, qualities.

Matthew 18:3

English Standard Version

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3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Ace Nova]

Jesus was talking about being humble, like little children.

You may remember that, as a small child, you could easily forgive a friend and then resume playing as if nothing had happened. We lose that amazing trait as we age. In the verse below Jesus tells us that we must become like children, we cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. My guess is that, upon death, we will all be transformed so that we are, indeed, like children. My guess is that we will retain knowledge and wisdom but lose our proudful, unforgiving, egotistical, qualities.

Matthew 18:3​

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English Standard Version​

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3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

That all can be true.

I was responding to the belief that if a child is baptized, "it's meaningless".

In the Gospel of John, Jesus clearly states that a person must be "Born of water and spirit" to enter the kingdom of God.

John 3:5

"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

How can it be "meaningless" to baptize a child if "one cannot enter the kingdom of God unless one is born of both water and spirit" (baptism)?

 

[K9Buck]

That all can be true.

I was responding to the belief that if a child is baptized, "it's meaningless".

In the Gospel of John, Jesus clearly states that a person must be "Born of water and spirit" to enter the kingdom of God.

John 3:5

"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

How can it be "meaningless" to baptize a child if "one cannot enter the kingdom of God unless one is born of both water and spirit" (baptism)?

My understanding of baptism is that one who gets baptized is announcing their faith in Jesus along with their intention to follow his teachings. Of course, the Bible isn't entirely clear on defining what Baptism is and what it does, so my understanding may be incorrect.

Hitler was most likely baptized as an infant as his mother was a devout Catholic. If he was baptized as an infant, did that save him from damnation? I doubt it. And why not? Because Hitler was obviously NOT a follower of Christ nor in his commandments and it's unclear if Hitler even believed in God or in Jesus.

I believe EVERY mature Christian should be baptized but only because they truly believe and understand its significance and WANT to be baptized.

 

[Ace Nova]

My understanding of baptism is that one who gets baptized is announcing their faith in Jesus along with their intention to follow his teachings. Of course, the Bible isn't entirely clear on defining what Baptism is and what it does, so my understanding may be incorrect.

Hitler was most likely baptized as an infant as his mother was a devout Catholic. If he was baptized as an infant, did that save him from damnation? I doubt it. And why not? Because Hitler was obviously NOT a follower of Christ nor in his commandments and it's unclear if Hitler even believed in God or in Jesus.

I believe EVERY mature Christian should be baptized but only because they truly believe and understand its significance and WANT to be baptized.

So can a child enter the Kingdom of God without being baptized?

As for your Hitler comparison - that speaks for Salvation without works is dead. Meaning that you can be baptized but if your works contradict Christ and you are unrepentant, you distance yourself from God.

 

[K9Buck]

So can a child enter the Kingdom of God without being baptized?

I believe so. It's sort of like asking about what happens to a person living in the Amazon that never heard of Jesus, let alone baptism.

I do think that we should be baptized, particularly when we're old enough to know what it means. Is there a consequence for failing to do so and, if there is, what is it? My answer to that is - I have no idea.

 

[K9Buck]

As for your Hitler comparison - that speaks for Salvation without works is dead. Meaning that you can be baptized but if your works contradict Christ and you are unrepentant, you distance yourself from God.

Hitler is obviously an extreme example that baptism alone does not save one from judgment. One can even believe and still be rejected by Jesus, as described in Matthew 7:21-23. One can't claim to follow Jesus and then live in extreme sin and then expect to be excluded from the "Lake of Fire". It's sort of like the saying "You can go the easy way or you can go the hard way but, either way, you're going!". Those that choose to believe in at least try to follow Jesus will go to God's kingdom the easy way. Everyone else will have to go the hard way. It's for their own good.

 

[ninja007]

didnt read anything about babies baptized in the bible. ZERO. Babies cannot repent anyway.

 

[ninja007]

Catholics made up purgatory, a total lie so the church could get money from followers. its literally imho the most dangerous teaching there is. Millions of catholics thinking they are going to heaven yet they were not truly saved. Or worse thinking theyll be ok in purgatory then earn their way to heaven, which is also a complete satanic lie. When a Believer dies they go straight to be with Jesus. PERIOD. No other places a true saved Christian goes.

 

[Ace Nova]

didnt read anything about babies baptized in the bible. ZERO. Babies cannot repent anyway.

So can a child enter the Kingdom of God without getting baptized?

 

[Meriweather]

That's where Protestants and Catholics differ. Protestants believe you're saved when you believe in your heart and confess, Romans 10.

"Saved" is a Protestant expression. As you explained earlier, you believe you are "saved" from hell.

When one is immersed in redemption and salvation, there is no fear of hell, no need to be "saved" from hell. Hell is not out to get me. God is.

 

[Meriweather]

I believe the Scripture. The Scripture says that if I believe in my heart and confess with my mouth, I will be saved. As a baby, you can't do that. That's the difference between Catholics and Protestants. Scripture authority over tradition.

Once again, you believe you must be "saved" from hell. The difference between Catholics and Protestants is that Catholics believe Christ redeemed the world and salvation (God's grace) is upon us. Not only is this tradition, it is biblical.

You either believe that Christ did not redeem the world, or if you say he did redeem the world, it appears you believe he left out the redemption and salvation of babies. That sounds more like a tradition dating to the 1500s, or 700 years ago than what was taught and became tradition 2200 years ago.

 

[Meriweather]

May I ask, at what age were you baptized?

I was 52 days old.

 

[K9Buck]

I was 52 days old.

Thanks.

 

[K9Buck]

Once again, you believe you must be "saved" from hell. The difference between Catholics and Protestants is that Catholics believe Christ redeemed the world and salvation (God's grace) is upon us. Not only is this tradition, it is biblical.

You either believe that Christ did not redeem the world, or if you say he did redeem the world, it appears you believe he left out the redemption and salvation of babies. That sounds more like a tradition dating to the 1500s, or 700 years ago than what was taught and became tradition 2200 years ago.

Yes, Jesus's sacrifice brings redemption for ALL of mankind, although some may nevertheless need to go through the "Lake of Fire" mentioned in the Bible, although nobody but Jesus knows who, if any, will be sent there for restoration.

 

[Meriweather]

My understanding of baptism is that one who gets baptized is announcing their faith in Jesus along with their intention to follow his teachings. Of course, the Bible isn't entirely clear on defining what Baptism is and what it does, so my understanding may be incorrect.

In the Catholic Church, through baptism, one becomes a member of the Body of Christ. Parents are the first teachers of their children (fellow members of the Body of Christ). Baptism forgives sins, and the Holy Spirit comes upon us.

 

[K9Buck]

"Saved" is a Protestant expression.

Romans 10:9 ESV​

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[K9Buck]

In the Catholic Church, through baptism, one becomes a member of the Body of Christ. Parents are the first teachers of their children (fellow members of the Body of Christ). Baptism forgives sins, and the Holy Spirit comes upon us.

Maybe, I just wish the Bible said so.

 

[K9Buck]

When one is immersed in redemption and salvation, there is no fear of hell, no need to be "saved" from hell. Hell is not out to get me. God is.

Amen to this. I love it!

 

[Meriweather]

Hitler was most likely baptized as an infant as his mother was a devout Catholic. If he was baptized as an infant, did that save him from damnation? I doubt it. And why not? Because Hitler was obviously NOT a follower of Christ nor in his commandments and it's unclear if Hitler even believed in God or in Jesus.

We have been talking about how it seems to be a Protestant belief that one needs to be saved from hell or damnation. The Catholic view is more or less in line with hell is our own choice--God does not send us there, we choose to go there. Neither baptism nor the grace available to us interferes with our own free will.

 

[Meriweather]

I believe EVERY mature Christian should be baptized but only because they truly believe and understand its significance and WANT to be baptized.

Baptism is ever present in Catholic life. We are constantly reminded of our baptism. It is not a "once and done" event.