Zone1 Why do Protestants always believe their pastors rather than the 2000 year old CHURCH Christ established?

[Meriweather]

Here is a detailed description which should answer all questions on Catholic thought on this subject.

Thank you, ding!

 

[BS Filter]

Life in Christ. In Catholicism, "Redeemed" and "Salvation" come together. Jesus' death on the cross redeemed mankind. We were no longer separated from God. Through this came salvation, that is grace touched our lives and that grace (if it is our free will) that empowers us to love God and neighbor and use the talents God gave us to serve Him and our fellow man. This grace is available to us every day to put to use (or to work) for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. Grace gives us the power to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (or awe of God, His work, His promises).

Salvation is of God, and it is His grace that prompts within us the desire to complete the process of salvation. (Keep in mind the Parable of the Talents). Also keep in mind that without God's help (grace) their can be no progress in our goodness and love; no progress in serving God.

Serving God is Kingdom living and it is here, in our present life, that we learn to serve God and His people. Hell has no wish and no use for the servants of God. We are already alive in the Kingdom of God, which Christ promised was in the reach of everyone. That is what redemption was/is all about--no more separation from God.

This is why the Protestant accusation of Catholics "earning one's way to heaven" makes no sense to us. With God's grace what we are working towards is our purification in love and goodness so that we are made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Hell is the least of our concerns. Making the best use of the grace God bestows upon us is our greatest concern. Preparing oneself for heaven is not trying to "earn one's way to heaven." That is already ours. The plan is to enter clothed in the proper wedding garment of goodness and love. That means working on being the best possible version of self, the best possible servant, that we can be. For we love our Father.

So when did you become "In Christ"?

 

[Meriweather]

So when did you become "In Christ"?

Baptism.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Matthew 28:16-20

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

If "All authority in heaven and on earth" was given to Jesus, then how can Satan be "The God of this world"?

Satan can do nothing except what God ALLOWS Currently, this world is ruled by Satan until the Return, when he will be chained (imprisoned) for 1,000 years

Satan is the god of this world II Corinthians 4:4

Satan is the prince of the power of the air Ephesians 2:2

Satan is the ruler of this world John 12:31

 

[ding]

Thank you, ding!

I really liked that explanation of Redemption, Salvation and Justification.

 

[BS Filter]

Baptism.

As a baby?

 

[Zincwarrior]

This reveals you never studied the Thirty Years War and all the political, social, and territorial strife going on at the time.

That you cannot name a few good things the Catholic Church did reveals you spent the same amount of time studying Catholicism.

You didn't answer the question.

 

[Meriweather]

As a baby?

Absolutely. When was the world redeemed? When does the Holy Spirit--and the grace of God--come upon us?

 

[Meriweather]

You didn't answer the question.

No, I didn't. The answer is there for all to see. If they wish to. Do you?

 

[Ace Nova]

Satan can do nothing except what God ALLOWS Currently, this world is ruled by Satan until the Return, when he will be chained (imprisoned) for 1,000 years

Satan is the god of this world II Corinthians 4:4

Satan is the prince of the power of the air Ephesians 2:2

Satan is the ruler of this world John 12:31

Corinthians 4:4

4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


Paul is speaking of "The God of this age" never mentions anything about "Satan". Satan is mentioned by name many times in both the Old and New Testaments. Why wouldn't Paul mention him by name if he was actually referring to Satan?

Ephesians 2:2

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Again, no mention of Satan.

John 12:31

31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Jesus mentioned Satan by name several times. (Matthew 4:10, Matthew 16:23) Why does he not mention Satan by name here?

"Satan" by definition, means "adversary". When Jesus used the word "Satan" he was referring to his/human kind's adversary/adversaries. (In a spiritual sense) In the Old Testament, "Satan" was used to describe a physical angel (or the Devil) who was also mankind's adversary.

If you believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross, defeated Satan/the devil, then was resurrected, how can the devil/Satan still be the ruler of this world if he was already defeated by Jesus?

Could it be that Jesus defeated Satan/the devil/the ways of this world by showing us the path to God/Salvation?

Could it be that the Kingdom of God that Jesus refers to, is already present but people do not see it?

Luke 17:20

20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

 

[BS Filter]

Absolutely. When was the world redeemed? When does the Holy Spirit--and the grace of God--come upon us?

That's where Protestants and Catholics differ. Protestants believe you're saved when you believe in your heart and confess, Romans 10.

 

[Meriweather]

That's where Protestants and Catholics differ. Protestants believe you're saved when you believe in your heart and confess, Romans 10.

So...Christ bringing redemption into the world hinges on your belief? The power of the Holy Spirit and the presence of God's grace hinges on your belief? God doesn't exactly come with an on-off switch. He is always present.

Catholics believe that God's gifts are available to all, but it is our own free will that decides whether we accept and cooperate with God's gifts. God does not withhold them, it is we who can refuse to accept them. If some refuse to accept them until they are older, free will. If parents accept these graces on behalf of their children, also free will. And if I was all in on accepting them as a toddler, free will. I suspect each will do what works best for him/herself. Since God is all right that, then it should be all right for us as well. What say you.

 

[Ace Nova]

That's where Protestants and Catholics differ. Protestants believe you're saved when you believe in your heart and confess, Romans 10.

That's quite the generalization, no?

Some of world's largest protestant denominations - Episcopal Church, Anglican Churches, Eastern Orthodox, Methodist Church - all state that salvation is compromised of both faith and works (at least to an extent).

Even the Baptist Church (which is the basis for most Evangelicals) states that salvation is through faith and your works are a product of that salvation.

So if someone sins or does not produce "good works" are they saved? Since being saved through faith would show by ones works, no?

 

[BS Filter]

So...Christ bringing redemption into the world hinges on your belief? The power of the Holy Spirit and the presence of God's grace hinges on your belief? God doesn't exactly come with an on-off switch. He is always present.

Catholics believe that God's gifts are available to all, but it is our own free will that decides whether we accept and cooperate with God's gifts. God does not withhold them, it is we who can refuse to accept them. If some refuse to accept them until they are older, free will. If parents accept these graces on behalf of their children, also free will. And if I was all in on accepting them as a toddler, free will. I suspect each will do what works best for him/herself. Since God is all right that, then it should be all right for us as well. What say you.

I believe the Scripture. The Scripture says that if I believe in my heart and confess with my mouth, I will be saved. As a baby, you can't do that. That's the difference between Catholics and Protestants. Scripture authority over tradition.

 

[gtopa1]

Jesus promised

"I will build My Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it." (Mt 16:18)

I have read the entire Bible and have studied Catholicism and there is nothing contradictory between those 2. But people outside the Catholic Church have been taught to believe (by their human pastors) that there are massive contradictions between those 2 so they unthinkingly believe there are. Why do Protestants choose to believe some non=Catholic over a Catholic? Why is their protestant pastor more believable than the 2000 year old Church?

While not all Catholics understand their Faith, I happen to be one who does. I have knowledge of such things as:

The Ark of the Covenant (OT) ..and how it connects to the present day Tabernacles that house the consecrated Hosts (inside Catholic Churches), so that just as in the old days w/ the Ark of the Covenant and the light perpetually burning in the temple for the Israelites to signify the Presence of God, the tabernacles inside Catholic Churches now house Christ Himself. Transubstantiation is in the Bible.. See where Jesus held the Passover and said that all who ate his flesh, drank his blood (OMG, say the protestants) will have eternal life.. This is the HOST given Catholics at Mass..

...and the Orthodox etc. Yeah; I dunno. Some German Prince used it to get out of paying the Church and Presto; Prods everywhere. I don't blame the current mob for that and there IS a lot of Moral crossover; just gotta be tolerant I guess....but Catholics have ZERO to worry about. Prods must wonder when they get one Pastor saying Abortion is wrong and another says it's OK.

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

That's quite the generalization, no?

Some of world's largest protestant denominations - Episcopal Church, Anglican Churches, Eastern Orthodox, Methodist Church - all state that salvation is compromised of both faith and works (at least to an extent).

Even the Baptist Church (which is the basis for most Evangelicals) states that salvation is through faith and your works are a product of that salvation.

So if someone sins or does not produce "good works" are they saved? Since being saved through faith would show by ones works, no?

Can't fool God. He's more cunning than us by a loooooong way!!!

Greg

 

[Ace Nova]

...and the Orthodox etc. Yeah; I dunno. Some German Prince used it to get out of paying the Church and Presto; Prods everywhere. I don't blame the current mob for that and there IS a lot of Moral crossover; just gotta be tolerant I guess....but Catholics have ZERO to worry about. Prods must wonder when they get one Pastor saying Abortion is wrong and another says it's OK.

Greg

Although the vast majority of the lay people within the church and Catholics themselves have almost always worshiped and obeyed God's laws and followed Jesus' path to salvation, unfortunately, some clergy/members throughout history did not. The Eastern/Western Schism was a major event that displayed how politics and corruption can infiltrate the minds of members within the church.

Later on, Martin Luther protested because he felt that the Church and some members within it, were misinterpreting the meaning of salvation. Throughout its history, dating as far back as the 3rd and 4th centuries, the Catholic Church was open to intellectual and philosophical debates about Biblical translations, meanings, etc. Unfortunately for Luther, during his time, the Church was not open for this type of religious debate. He was excommunicated for his views on salvation - which became the beginning of the protestant movement.

Although Martin Luther's views and actions were done with with good intentions, many other protestant denominations were formed for political reasons and influence.

It is by the grace of God that the Catholic Church has noted and confessed its mistakes of the past and through this confession, the Catholic Church has been open to reconciliation with all Christians worldwide, no matter the denomination. The Catholic Church considers itself one body. Although the vast majority of Catholics throughout history had nothing to do with the actions of the few within the Church (that may have led it astray at some points or another), as Catholics, they still confessed the mistakes of the Church as a whole.

Catholics no longer believe it's an "us vs them" when regarding other Christians or almost anyone else on Earth. Catholics pray for all "Good willed people" on Earth. Catholics also pray that all Christians focus on Christ's message instead of fighting within themselves.

 

[K9Buck]

Baptism.

May I ask, at what age were you baptized?

 

[Ace Nova]

I believe the Scripture. The Scripture says that if I believe in my heart and confess with my mouth, I will be saved. As a baby, you can't do that. That's the difference between Catholics and Protestants. Scripture authority over tradition.

Luke 18:16

"But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."

John 3:5

"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

 

[K9Buck]

If you believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross, defeated Satan/the devil, then was resurrected, how can the devil/Satan still be the ruler of this world if he was already defeated by Jesus?

I DO believe that Satan is the ruler of this world.

1 John 5:19
19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Revelation 20:1-3

English Standard Version

​

The Thousand Years​

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit[a] and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.