Why do the God-haters persist?

[Montrovant]

You're conflating religion with spirituality. Religions were created to try and comprehend the spiritual connection man makes. They are proof that man does make a real connection with something greater than self, not of the physical world. But man is flawed, thus any religions he creates are also flawed.

You can certainly be spiritual and not be religious. For tens of thousands of years, humans were spiritual without religion. Your problem is, you've thrown the baby out with the bathwater. However, in speaking with you, I get the feeling you do believe there is something greater than self. You said you believed in Karma. Well, Karma is a spiritual concept, not physical.

It is very difficult for a human to completely reject all spirituality. We are intrinsically hard-wired to spiritually connect to something greater than self. This is why only about 12% of the population is able to make their claims of Atheism. I found it interesting, the survey they did in Denmark a while back. It's one of the most Atheistic countries on the planet with nearly 34% claiming Atheism. However, when asked specifically if they believed in absolutely no possibility of any kind of spiritual existence, only 13% would go that far.

And yet you feel confident that you, unlike most or all of the rest of humanity, does not have a flawed understanding of the spiritual connection you believe in.

Humans were spiritual without religion for tens of thousands of years? Which humans were these, and what is your evidence they were spiritual without religion? Perhaps I should ask you to define those two words first, since you so often seem to use your own personal definitions of things.

If humans are 'hard-wired' to connect to something greater than self, can you show the mechanism which accounts for this? Or, again, do I need to ask you to define hard-wired so that I can know what you are talking about?

Atheism has multiple definitions. Some consider it a rejection of all possibility of god, others simply not believing in any god.

This thread has over 4,100 posts. I can't imagine that I haven't already covered your questions several times. Is one more time going to do it? Let's see?

1. From the oldest human civilization we have ever unearthed, there is evidence of ritual ceremony and burial using red ochre. They weren't simply being "festive" here, the use of red ochre is well documented as part of human spiritual ritual.

2. These archeological findings predate any religion by at least 20k years or more. So long before any religion, humans were spiritually worshiping something.

3. Psychologists studying human behavior have determined that humans have an inherent inclination to be spiritual. Sigmund Freud noted (maybe from Voltaire), "If God did not exist, humans would have to invent Him." Simply meaning, we could not be humans without spirituality. It is ingrained in who we are as humans.

Yes, atheism has wide ranging definition... still... in the most atheistic country on the planet, the majority of atheists will not say there is no possibility of anything spiritual existing. I have argued that some Atheists I know of are bigger believers in God than some Christians I know.

How do you know those findings are spiritual but not religious? Why couldn't they have been part of religious ceremony? You say the findings predate any religion without explaining how you or anyone knows this to be the case. Perhaps, rather than these findings predating any religion, they are evidence of religion(s) we didn't know about.

I find it hilarious that you would use a quote which, by your own posts in this thread, makes no sense. You have said, repeatedly, that the idea of humans creating god is ridiculous.

 

[sealybobo]

“We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” – Adolf Hitler

 

[Boss]

No, I'll say it again for you. Maybe it will sink in this time.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. The majority of things we can possibly imagine do not exist. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

This comes right from the website called [url removed]

So atheists aren't saying they know anything Boss. YOU ARE. You don't know jack shit. You've been brainwashed like the rest of them.

If you take all the evidence the probability of there being a god is lesson than 1%. But us atheists will give you that. .000001% chance. Who knows what's on the other side of a black hole. Certainly not you.

Sorry sometimes when I call you names. It just makes me feel better. Do you know that swearing can actually over ride pain? Try it next time you bang your elbow or toe. Say FUCK! So the brain is an amazing thing Boss. Scientists are unlocking secrets every day. They have even determined that we made up god, not the other way around. Probably of course. No one is sure except for you bible thumpers, and on very very very shaky evidence.

"The honest answer is we just don't know." ~You

There is your quote, yet what you are "explaining" to me is a profound disbelief in God... not that you "just don't know." I do find it cute that you claim to believe in Karma, a spiritual concept... and you repeatedly claim to be an "Agnostic Atheist" whatever the fuck that is supposed to be. It tells me that in your heart of hearts you do know there is a higher power.

You can make up fake statistics all day long, you can't show us science that has determined man invented spirituality. You can claim that, but you're simply lying. It can be your opinion, but it is baseless. What you've adopted is a faith-based disbelief.

Now, I am not the type of person who can accept things on blind faith. For me, I need evidence to believe anything. This is why I cannot be a Christian. That said, I do connect with a spiritual power greater than self on a daily basis. I've been doing this for most of my adult life and I have gained great benefit personally from that. To me, that is all the "evidence" I need to believe in God. I can't believe it's all in my head and a figment of imagination any more than you could believe that about your own mother if I were here saying it.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims.

You are right, like you, I don't know if there is a god or not.

What it should tell you is that in my mind I know there is no god and in your heart you want there to be a god.

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

You have no evidence.

I can’t believe/understand a world without God OR No god is too unlikely.

Argument from incredulity / Lack of imagination and Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. Ignores and does not eliminate the fact that something can seem incredible or unlikely and still be true, or appear to be obvious or likely and yet still be false.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

You're right, it's not an equally probable outcome. It's most likely there is a God and belief in God is the most rational. That's why the overwhelming majority of humans have always believed in something greater than self.

I guess you didn't bother to read my post... Let's try this... Silly boob, your momma is not real! She is a figment of your imagination. You were afraid of the unknown as a baby so you created a "momma" to help you cope with being alone. You cannot prove to me that your momma exists. Any "evidence" you may claim to have is anecdotal and subjective. You are silly, stupid and uneducated if you believe in your momma.

What is your opinion of my assessment?

 

[Boss]

And yet you feel confident that you, unlike most or all of the rest of humanity, does not have a flawed understanding of the spiritual connection you believe in.

Humans were spiritual without religion for tens of thousands of years? Which humans were these, and what is your evidence they were spiritual without religion? Perhaps I should ask you to define those two words first, since you so often seem to use your own personal definitions of things.

If humans are 'hard-wired' to connect to something greater than self, can you show the mechanism which accounts for this? Or, again, do I need to ask you to define hard-wired so that I can know what you are talking about?

Atheism has multiple definitions. Some consider it a rejection of all possibility of god, others simply not believing in any god.

This thread has over 4,100 posts. I can't imagine that I haven't already covered your questions several times. Is one more time going to do it? Let's see?

1. From the oldest human civilization we have ever unearthed, there is evidence of ritual ceremony and burial using red ochre. They weren't simply being "festive" here, the use of red ochre is well documented as part of human spiritual ritual.

2. These archeological findings predate any religion by at least 20k years or more. So long before any religion, humans were spiritually worshiping something.

3. Psychologists studying human behavior have determined that humans have an inherent inclination to be spiritual. Sigmund Freud noted (maybe from Voltaire), "If God did not exist, humans would have to invent Him." Simply meaning, we could not be humans without spirituality. It is ingrained in who we are as humans.

Yes, atheism has wide ranging definition... still... in the most atheistic country on the planet, the majority of atheists will not say there is no possibility of anything spiritual existing. I have argued that some Atheists I know of are bigger believers in God than some Christians I know.

How do you know those findings are spiritual but not religious? Why couldn't they have been part of religious ceremony? You say the findings predate any religion without explaining how you or anyone knows this to be the case. Perhaps, rather than these findings predating any religion, they are evidence of religion(s) we didn't know about.

I find it hilarious that you would use a quote which, by your own posts in this thread, makes no sense. You have said, repeatedly, that the idea of humans creating god is ridiculous.

Well all we can go by is what we have evidence for. The oldest organized and written religion is Hinduism. Although it is speculated that loosely-organized "religious" beliefs predate Hinduism by perhaps 10k years or so. (Animism) Of course, according to The Bible, religion began with Adam and Eve and the creation.

You can find whatever you want hilarious, you obviously misinterpreted the quote like you've often misinterpreted things here. I did not say man invented God or that it wasn't ridiculous to believe that. The quote is a testament to how profoundly and intrinsically man is connected to something spiritual.

 

[Hollie]

"The honest answer is we just don't know." ~You

There is your quote, yet what you are "explaining" to me is a profound disbelief in God... not that you "just don't know." I do find it cute that you claim to believe in Karma, a spiritual concept... and you repeatedly claim to be an "Agnostic Atheist" whatever the fuck that is supposed to be. It tells me that in your heart of hearts you do know there is a higher power.

You can make up fake statistics all day long, you can't show us science that has determined man invented spirituality. You can claim that, but you're simply lying. It can be your opinion, but it is baseless. What you've adopted is a faith-based disbelief.

Now, I am not the type of person who can accept things on blind faith. For me, I need evidence to believe anything. This is why I cannot be a Christian. That said, I do connect with a spiritual power greater than self on a daily basis. I've been doing this for most of my adult life and I have gained great benefit personally from that. To me, that is all the "evidence" I need to believe in God. I can't believe it's all in my head and a figment of imagination any more than you could believe that about your own mother if I were here saying it.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims.

You are right, like you, I don't know if there is a god or not.

What it should tell you is that in my mind I know there is no god and in your heart you want there to be a god.

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

You have no evidence.

I can’t believe/understand a world without God OR No god is too unlikely.

Argument from incredulity / Lack of imagination and Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. Ignores and does not eliminate the fact that something can seem incredible or unlikely and still be true, or appear to be obvious or likely and yet still be false.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

You're right, it's not an equally probable outcome. It's most likely there is a God and belief in God is the most rational. That's why the overwhelming majority of humans have always believed in something greater than self.

I guess you didn't bother to read my post... Let's try this... Silly boob, your momma is not real! She is a figment of your imagination. You were afraid of the unknown as a baby so you created a "momma" to help you cope with being alone. You cannot prove to me that your momma exists. Any "evidence" you may claim to have is anecdotal and subjective. You are silly, stupid and uneducated if you believe in your momma.

What is your opinion of my assessment?

Belief in gods is clearly not rational. The human inventions of gods, by their human attributes of being incomprehensible, supernatural, etc., makes them irrational.

 

[sealybobo]

"The honest answer is we just don't know." ~You

There is your quote, yet what you are "explaining" to me is a profound disbelief in God... not that you "just don't know." I do find it cute that you claim to believe in Karma, a spiritual concept... and you repeatedly claim to be an "Agnostic Atheist" whatever the fuck that is supposed to be. It tells me that in your heart of hearts you do know there is a higher power.

You can make up fake statistics all day long, you can't show us science that has determined man invented spirituality. You can claim that, but you're simply lying. It can be your opinion, but it is baseless. What you've adopted is a faith-based disbelief.

Now, I am not the type of person who can accept things on blind faith. For me, I need evidence to believe anything. This is why I cannot be a Christian. That said, I do connect with a spiritual power greater than self on a daily basis. I've been doing this for most of my adult life and I have gained great benefit personally from that. To me, that is all the "evidence" I need to believe in God. I can't believe it's all in my head and a figment of imagination any more than you could believe that about your own mother if I were here saying it.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims.

You are right, like you, I don't know if there is a god or not.

What it should tell you is that in my mind I know there is no god and in your heart you want there to be a god.

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

You have no evidence.

I can’t believe/understand a world without God OR No god is too unlikely.

Argument from incredulity / Lack of imagination and Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. Ignores and does not eliminate the fact that something can seem incredible or unlikely and still be true, or appear to be obvious or likely and yet still be false.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

You're right, it's not an equally probable outcome. It's most likely there is a God and belief in God is the most rational. That's why the overwhelming majority of humans have always believed in something greater than self.

I guess you didn't bother to read my post... Let's try this... Silly boob, your momma is not real! She is a figment of your imagination. You were afraid of the unknown as a baby so you created a "momma" to help you cope with being alone. You cannot prove to me that your momma exists. Any "evidence" you may claim to have is anecdotal and subjective. You are silly, stupid and uneducated if you believe in your momma.

What is your opinion of my assessment?

I can show you pictures of my mom. I can video tape her and me talking and show it to you. You can come over and I can introduce you so you can see for yourself.

This argument was once used by theologians and philosophers, but has fallen out of favor among those who know what they are talking about. The reason is that this is not simply a flawed argument but can also be a logical fallacy.
The basic version argues that belief in some sort of god is innate or instinctive and has existed consciously in nearly the whole of humanity throughout history. The best way to explain this, or so the argument goes, is to assume that some sort of god really does exist after all. Belief in a god wouldn’t be so popular or pervasive if some god didn’t exist, therefore some god must exist.
There is no good, factual basis to assume that belief in a god is indeed innate and instinctive. It cannot be innate because it is not present at birth. Someone has to tell you about god. And what about atheists? We don’t instinctively believe. And it cannot be innate in the sense that it is a belief that we are predisposed to acquire, because there is no reason to think that all children will automatically acquire it without specific instruction or indoctrination.
The second objection is to the idea that there is any necessary logical connection between the widespread existence of a belief and in the existence of the object of that belief. Just because trillions of people believe a thing doesn’t make it true — this is a logical fallacy. Truth is not decided by majority vote. Besides, it is possible to explain the persistence of theism without the existence of a god - for example, by arguing that it has had survival value for the human species.
The idea that we all “really” have such a yearning but simply deny it won’t work. This is similar to the common Christian claim that an atheist “really” believes in a god, but is in denial. No one not intimately familiar with a person can reasonably claim that that person is “in denial” of anything, much less of something as significant as a god. To try and claim this anyway is one of the most arrogant and presumptuous attitudes that atheists have to deal with.
Moreover, even if such an innate yearning existed, that does not automatically mean that a real object of that yearning must exist. Once again, this yearning might have evolutionary survival value regardless of the truth of the matter. Or perhaps there is instead a yearning for security or justice which can indeed exist, but we transfer this yearning to an all-encompassing god which does not exist. The claim that a yearning logically necessitates an object for that yearning is invalid — it is an assumption, and an unsupported one at that.
Thus we see that the Argument from Common Consent fails to make the existence of a god more likely or the belief in a god more reasonable. The premises upon which it relies are questionable at best and often incorrect. The conclusions it attempts to draw do not follow necessarily from the premises, even if they were true.

 

[sealybobo]

"The honest answer is we just don't know." ~You

There is your quote, yet what you are "explaining" to me is a profound disbelief in God... not that you "just don't know." I do find it cute that you claim to believe in Karma, a spiritual concept... and you repeatedly claim to be an "Agnostic Atheist" whatever the fuck that is supposed to be. It tells me that in your heart of hearts you do know there is a higher power.

You can make up fake statistics all day long, you can't show us science that has determined man invented spirituality. You can claim that, but you're simply lying. It can be your opinion, but it is baseless. What you've adopted is a faith-based disbelief.

Now, I am not the type of person who can accept things on blind faith. For me, I need evidence to believe anything. This is why I cannot be a Christian. That said, I do connect with a spiritual power greater than self on a daily basis. I've been doing this for most of my adult life and I have gained great benefit personally from that. To me, that is all the "evidence" I need to believe in God. I can't believe it's all in my head and a figment of imagination any more than you could believe that about your own mother if I were here saying it.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims.

You are right, like you, I don't know if there is a god or not.

What it should tell you is that in my mind I know there is no god and in your heart you want there to be a god.

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

You have no evidence.

I can’t believe/understand a world without God OR No god is too unlikely.

Argument from incredulity / Lack of imagination and Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. Ignores and does not eliminate the fact that something can seem incredible or unlikely and still be true, or appear to be obvious or likely and yet still be false.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

You're right, it's not an equally probable outcome. It's most likely there is a God and belief in God is the most rational.

An argument is circular if its conclusion is among its premises if it assumes what it is trying to prove. A circular argument fails as a proof because it will only be judged to be sound by those who already accept its conclusion. Anyone who accepts all of the argument’s premises already accepts the argument’s conclusion, so can’t be said to have been persuaded by the argument. In neither case, then, will the argument be successful.
Example
(1) The Bible affirms that it is inerrant.
(2) Whatever the Bible says is true.
Therefore:
(3) The Bible is inerrant.
This argument is circular because its conclusion—The Bible is inerrant—is the same as its second premise—Whatever the Bible says is true. Anyone who would reject the argument’s conclusion should also reject its second premise, and, along with it, the argument as a whole.

 

[sealybobo]

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims.

You are right, like you, I don't know if there is a god or not.

What it should tell you is that in my mind I know there is no god and in your heart you want there to be a god.

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

You have no evidence.

I can’t believe/understand a world without God OR No god is too unlikely.

Argument from incredulity / Lack of imagination and Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. Ignores and does not eliminate the fact that something can seem incredible or unlikely and still be true, or appear to be obvious or likely and yet still be false.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

You're right, it's not an equally probable outcome. It's most likely there is a God and belief in God is the most rational. That's why the overwhelming majority of humans have always believed in something greater than self.

I guess you didn't bother to read my post... Let's try this... Silly boob, your momma is not real! She is a figment of your imagination. You were afraid of the unknown as a baby so you created a "momma" to help you cope with being alone. You cannot prove to me that your momma exists. Any "evidence" you may claim to have is anecdotal and subjective. You are silly, stupid and uneducated if you believe in your momma.

What is your opinion of my assessment?

Belief in gods is clearly not rational. The human inventions of gods, by their human attributes of being incomprehensible, supernatural, etc., makes them irrational.

How do you reason with someone who argues the probability of an imaginary god in the heavens is more likely and probable than there not being one?

At least honest christians admit you just have to have faith. Boss in some ways is even worse because he thinks he has proof.

 

[Boss]

I can show you pictures of my mom. I can video tape her and me talking and show it to you. You can come over and I can introduce you so you can see for yourself.

Anecdotal and circumstantial evidence. It could be anyone. Again, you have NO PROOF your momma exists and it's irrational and foolish to claim she does. (See how this is working?)

 

[Boss]

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. Thus, belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims.

You are right, like you, I don't know if there is a god or not.

What it should tell you is that in my mind I know there is no god and in your heart you want there to be a god.

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

You have no evidence.

I can’t believe/understand a world without God OR No god is too unlikely.

Argument from incredulity / Lack of imagination and Argumentum ad Ignorantiam. Ignores and does not eliminate the fact that something can seem incredible or unlikely and still be true, or appear to be obvious or likely and yet still be false.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

You're right, it's not an equally probable outcome. It's most likely there is a God and belief in God is the most rational.

An argument is circular if its conclusion is among its premises if it assumes what it is trying to prove. A circular argument fails as a proof because it will only be judged to be sound by those who already accept its conclusion. Anyone who accepts all of the argument’s premises already accepts the argument’s conclusion, so can’t be said to have been persuaded by the argument. In neither case, then, will the argument be successful.
Example
(1) The Bible affirms that it is inerrant.
(2) Whatever the Bible says is true.
Therefore:
(3) The Bible is inerrant.
This argument is circular because its conclusion—The Bible is inerrant—is the same as its second premise—Whatever the Bible says is true. Anyone who would reject the argument’s conclusion should also reject its second premise, and, along with it, the argument as a whole.

Where did I mention the Bible? It is not a part of MY argument.

My argument is quite simple and not circular at all... I know God exists because I connect with God daily. I admitted back on Page 1 that I could not prove to you that God exists. That hasn't changed. I'll also predict that I will never be able to convince you God exists.

 

[TheJedi]

Dear OP,

We are not hateful. We do not hate God. We simply want you to stop pushing your faith on us. If you stop trying to push your faith on us, we will stop pushing back.

This is a very basic scientific principal. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Stop promoting legislation that enforces your religious values and we will stop fighting back. You started this war a long time ago. Atheists were burned at the stake as far back as the dark ages.

What I personally find so hypocritical, is that your political party of choice is all about freedom and liberty and upholding the Constitution. Yet everyday you fight to curtail the liberties of people who do not believe in what you believe in. You seek to make these people into second class citizens. Whether it be homosexuals, blacks, hispanics, non-Christians, liberals.....it's really an epic case of utter hypocrisy.

I have no problems with Christians per say. I just have problems with some of the assholes in your group. Many of my closest friends are Christian they just do not lecture me about how I have to find God. They are rational Christians who also believe that our government should be religion neutral and the 14th Amendment nullifies any state ban on gay marriage because it DOES. This is another case where people who believe in the Constitution do not understand how it works. When they are told how it works, they say well we should still outlaw gays and gay marriage because......Jesus. How the f**k does one argue with that kind of mentality?

Let me be the first to apologize for the assholes in my group of Atheist, Agnostic and nones because, let's face it, there are assholes in every group. One thing is certain, we are here to stay and there is nothing you can or will ever do about it. Freedom is freedom so you are either for it or against it. You can't have it both ways.

On religious freedom, this is a vicious circle. According to many of the faithful, religious freedom means the right to discriminate as in to deny freedoms to those outside of your faith and moral values but this goes against the grain of what our founding fathers had in mind. In the end, you have no choice but to tolerate because, the Law of the Land trumps the laws of god in every case imaginable in this country. This will never change either. In 50 years, religion will fade into political obscurity as future generations are more and more tolerant of an ever-changing, always evolving society. Multi-culturalism will supplant all other cultures as more races and religions intermarry and have kids. This is unavoidable.

One last thing, non-believers are the fastest growing segment in society. There are many studies that show this and I would link them but, alas, I have yet to reach awesome level 1 and cannot post links. We can thank education for this which is probably why the extreme right wants to dumb down the country. Stupid people are easy to fool.

 

[GISMYS]

Dear OP,

We are not hateful. We do not hate God. We simply want you to stop pushing your faith on us. If you stop trying to push your faith on us, we will stop pushing back.

This is a very basic scientific principal. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Stop promoting legislation that enforces your religious values and we will stop fighting back. You started this war a long time ago. Atheists were burned at the stake as far back as the dark ages.

What I personally find so hypocritical, is that your political party of choice is all about freedom and liberty and upholding the Constitution. Yet everyday you fight to curtail the liberties of people who do not believe in what you believe in. You seek to make these people into second class citizens. Whether it be homosexuals, blacks, hispanics, non-Christians, liberals.....it's really an epic case of utter hypocrisy.

I have no problems with Christians per say. I just have problems with some of the assholes in your group. Many of my closest friends are Christian they just do not lecture me about how I have to find God. They are rational Christians who also believe that our government should be religion neutral and the 14th Amendment nullifies any state ban on gay marriage because it DOES. This is another case where people who believe in the Constitution do not understand how it works. When they are told how it works, they say well we should still outlaw gays and gay marriage because......Jesus. How the f**k does one argue with that kind of mentality?

Let me be the first to apologize for the assholes in my group of Atheist, Agnostic and nones because, let's face it, there are assholes in every group. One thing is certain, we are here to stay and there is nothing you can or will ever do about it. Freedom is freedom so you are either for it or against it. You can't have it both ways.

On religious freedom, this is a vicious circle. According to many of the faithful, religious freedom means the right to discriminate as in to deny freedoms to those outside of your faith and moral values but this goes against the grain of what our founding fathers had in mind. In the end, you have no choice but to tolerate because, the Law of the Land trumps the laws of god in every case imaginable in this country. This will never change either. In 50 years, religion will fade into political obscurity as future generations are more and more tolerant of an ever-changing, always evolving society. Multi-culturalism will supplant all other cultures as more races and religions intermarry and have kids. This is unavoidable.

One last thing, non-believers are the fastest growing segment in society. There are many studies that show this and I would link them but, alas, I have yet to reach awesome level 1 and cannot post links. We can thank education for this which is probably why the extreme right wants to dumb down the country. Stupid people are easy to fool.

JESUS SENDS OUT HIS FOLLOWERS TO ALL THE WORLD WITH THE GOOD NEWS THAT GOD LOVES THEM AND IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY PERISH BUT THAT ALL BELIEVE,CONFESS AND REPENT OF SIN AND HAVE ETERNAL LIFE!!! YOUR CHOICE!!! BUT KNOW! YOU NOW WILL HAVE NO EXCUSE ON YOUR VERY NEAR FINAL JUDGMENT DAY!!! Think!

 

[TheJedi]

Dear OP,

We are not hateful. We do not hate God. We simply want you to stop pushing your faith on us. If you stop trying to push your faith on us, we will stop pushing back.

This is a very basic scientific principal. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Stop promoting legislation that enforces your religious values and we will stop fighting back. You started this war a long time ago. Atheists were burned at the stake as far back as the dark ages.

What I personally find so hypocritical, is that your political party of choice is all about freedom and liberty and upholding the Constitution. Yet everyday you fight to curtail the liberties of people who do not believe in what you believe in. You seek to make these people into second class citizens. Whether it be homosexuals, blacks, hispanics, non-Christians, liberals.....it's really an epic case of utter hypocrisy.

I have no problems with Christians per say. I just have problems with some of the assholes in your group. Many of my closest friends are Christian they just do not lecture me about how I have to find God. They are rational Christians who also believe that our government should be religion neutral and the 14th Amendment nullifies any state ban on gay marriage because it DOES. This is another case where people who believe in the Constitution do not understand how it works. When they are told how it works, they say well we should still outlaw gays and gay marriage because......Jesus. How the f**k does one argue with that kind of mentality?

Let me be the first to apologize for the assholes in my group of Atheist, Agnostic and nones because, let's face it, there are assholes in every group. One thing is certain, we are here to stay and there is nothing you can or will ever do about it. Freedom is freedom so you are either for it or against it. You can't have it both ways.

On religious freedom, this is a vicious circle. According to many of the faithful, religious freedom means the right to discriminate as in to deny freedoms to those outside of your faith and moral values but this goes against the grain of what our founding fathers had in mind. In the end, you have no choice but to tolerate because, the Law of the Land trumps the laws of god in every case imaginable in this country. This will never change either. In 50 years, religion will fade into political obscurity as future generations are more and more tolerant of an ever-changing, always evolving society. Multi-culturalism will supplant all other cultures as more races and religions intermarry and have kids. This is unavoidable.

One last thing, non-believers are the fastest growing segment in society. There are many studies that show this and I would link them but, alas, I have yet to reach awesome level 1 and cannot post links. We can thank education for this which is probably why the extreme right wants to dumb down the country. Stupid people are easy to fool.

JESUS SENDS OUT HIS FOLLOWERS TO ALL THE WORLD WITH THE GOOD NEWS THAT GOD LOVES THEM AND IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY PERISH BUT THAT ALL BELIEVE,CONFESS AND REPENT OF SIN AND HAVE ETERNAL LIFE!!! YOUR CHOICE!!! BUT KNOW! YOU NOW WILL HAVE NO EXCUSE ON YOUR VERY NEAR FINAL JUDGMENT DAY!!! Think!

You are one entertaining dude.

 

[GISMYS]

Dear OP,

We are not hateful. We do not hate God. We simply want you to stop pushing your faith on us. If you stop trying to push your faith on us, we will stop pushing back.

This is a very basic scientific principal. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Stop promoting legislation that enforces your religious values and we will stop fighting back. You started this war a long time ago. Atheists were burned at the stake as far back as the dark ages.

What I personally find so hypocritical, is that your political party of choice is all about freedom and liberty and upholding the Constitution. Yet everyday you fight to curtail the liberties of people who do not believe in what you believe in. You seek to make these people into second class citizens. Whether it be homosexuals, blacks, hispanics, non-Christians, liberals.....it's really an epic case of utter hypocrisy.

I have no problems with Christians per say. I just have problems with some of the assholes in your group. Many of my closest friends are Christian they just do not lecture me about how I have to find God. They are rational Christians who also believe that our government should be religion neutral and the 14th Amendment nullifies any state ban on gay marriage because it DOES. This is another case where people who believe in the Constitution do not understand how it works. When they are told how it works, they say well we should still outlaw gays and gay marriage because......Jesus. How the f**k does one argue with that kind of mentality?

Let me be the first to apologize for the assholes in my group of Atheist, Agnostic and nones because, let's face it, there are assholes in every group. One thing is certain, we are here to stay and there is nothing you can or will ever do about it. Freedom is freedom so you are either for it or against it. You can't have it both ways.

On religious freedom, this is a vicious circle. According to many of the faithful, religious freedom means the right to discriminate as in to deny freedoms to those outside of your faith and moral values but this goes against the grain of what our founding fathers had in mind. In the end, you have no choice but to tolerate because, the Law of the Land trumps the laws of god in every case imaginable in this country. This will never change either. In 50 years, religion will fade into political obscurity as future generations are more and more tolerant of an ever-changing, always evolving society. Multi-culturalism will supplant all other cultures as more races and religions intermarry and have kids. This is unavoidable.

One last thing, non-believers are the fastest growing segment in society. There are many studies that show this and I would link them but, alas, I have yet to reach awesome level 1 and cannot post links. We can thank education for this which is probably why the extreme right wants to dumb down the country. Stupid people are easy to fool.

JESUS SENDS OUT HIS FOLLOWERS TO ALL THE WORLD WITH THE GOOD NEWS THAT GOD LOVES THEM AND IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY PERISH BUT THAT ALL BELIEVE,CONFESS AND REPENT OF SIN AND HAVE ETERNAL LIFE!!! YOUR CHOICE!!! BUT KNOW! YOU NOW WILL HAVE NO EXCUSE ON YOUR VERY NEAR FINAL JUDGMENT DAY!!! Think!

You are one entertaining dude.

WHY DO PEOPLE WASTE THEIR LIFE TRYING TO ARGUE AND FIGHT AGAINST GOD? GOD LOVES YOU,GOD IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY PERISH, WHY NOT JUST BELIEVE,CONFESS AND REPENT, ACCEPT JESUS AS YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR AND BECOME A son OF ALMIGHTY GOD? THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE TO LIVING YOUR LIFE AS A son OF ALMIGHTY GOD!!!! =====The Bible is not just a good book, it is our life line. As we apply it in our lives, we
grow spiritually and can reign in life through Jesus Christ as the Bible says in
Roman 5:17. We must “study to show ourselves approved to God, a workman that
needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth”. You must “submit
yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you” (James 4:
7). We have to guard our heart as we are told in Proverbs 4:20-23 “My son, attend
to my words, incline your ear to my sayings. Let them not depart from your eyes,
keep them in the midst of your heart. For they are life to those that find them, and
health to all their flesh. Keep your heart with all diligence, for out of it are the
issues of life”.

The Bible tells us over 300 times to “fear not”; fear is what the devil uses to draw
you away from God and keep you under his domain. Jesus tells us how to live
triumphantly in John 15:1-5, the key is abiding in Him, in the word.

 

[Boss]

Dear OP,

We are not hateful. We do not hate God. We simply want you to stop pushing your faith on us. If you stop trying to push your faith on us, we will stop pushing back.

This is a very basic scientific principal. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Stop promoting legislation that enforces your religious values and we will stop fighting back. You started this war a long time ago. Atheists were burned at the stake as far back as the dark ages.

I will gladly stand up for you and defend you if anyone in this country attempts to burn you at the stake, I promise. No one is ever going to stop proposing legislation based on their religious moral values. People who have religious moral values have just as much right to a political voice as you do. We do not discriminate in this country based on race or religion.

I'm not a religious person, I am not Christian. However, I live in a dry county in Alabama where alcohol sales are prohibited. Luckily, I can drive 15 minutes to the next county and buy whatever I want. But I am okay with that because it's what the people of my county voted for. If it bothered me to any great extent, I would move out of this county. If it comes up on the ballot, I'll vote to sell alcohol. But I respect the rights of others to establish laws for their community through ballot initiatives because I think that's how freedom should work.

What I personally find so hypocritical, is that your political party of choice is all about freedom and liberty and upholding the Constitution. Yet everyday you fight to curtail the liberties of people who do not believe in what you believe in. You seek to make these people into second class citizens. Whether it be homosexuals, blacks, hispanics, non-Christians, liberals.....it's really an epic case of utter hypocrisy.

No one that I am aware of has made anyone a "second class citizen." Conservatives reject the notion of class, we are all Americans who have the same equal rights under the Constitution. What we observe is the left purposely constructing these issues as anti-this and anti-that, when it's clearly not the case. Opposition to gay marriage is not about "equal rights" because no one is allowed to marry someone of the same sex, gay or straight. Opposition to illegal immigration isn't hatred for Hispanics. Being opposed to welfare is not being prejudiced against blacks. These are memes developed and nurtured by the left, and the conservative right is inept at countering.

I have no problems with Christians per say. I just have problems with some of the assholes in your group.

Again... I don't have a "group" and don't affiliate with ANY organized religion. But I know something about assholes, and guess what? Your "group" has them as well.

Many of my closest friends are Christian they just do not lecture me about how I have to find God. They are rational Christians who also believe that our government should be religion neutral and the 14th Amendment nullifies any state ban on gay marriage because it DOES. This is another case where people who believe in the Constitution do not understand how it works. When they are told how it works, they say well we should still outlaw gays and gay marriage because......Jesus. How the f**k does one argue with that kind of mentality?

Well, I've read the 14th Amendment and it doesn't mention gay marriage. In fact, I can find nothing in the entire Constitution that condones or permits gay marriage. The term itself is an oxymoron. Marriage is the union of a male and female. The same exact "equal rights" argument could be made for pedophilia or beastality. We do not change the definition of words so that we can get to do whatever we please. Now, I have NEVER met anyone who advocated banning homosexuality. I know people who are opposed to it, and think it's wrong. I've never known of any political initiative or action calling for any such thing. Yet your mentality seems to think this is the case... how the fuck do we argue with THAT?

As for how to handle Christians who bug you about becoming a Christian, here is what to do: Remind said Christian that his/her religion is a religion of acceptance. In order for you to become a Christian, you must accept that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior. Since you do not accept this, it's not possible for you to ever be a Christian and it doesn't matter how much they want you to be.

Let me be the first to apologize for the assholes in my group of Atheist, Agnostic and nones because, let's face it, there are assholes in every group. One thing is certain, we are here to stay and there is nothing you can or will ever do about it. Freedom is freedom so you are either for it or against it. You can't have it both ways.

And I can appreciate your right to have a political voice, it's what America is all about. What you need to do is extend this same courtesy to the religious right whom you so deeply despise. They are also here to stay and nothing you can or will ever do about that. They will have a voice in politics, they will try to establish laws based on their religious convictions, and that is how our system is supposed to work. If you don't like that, seek a country without religious freedom.

On religious freedom, this is a vicious circle. According to many of the faithful, religious freedom means the right to discriminate as in to deny freedoms to those outside of your faith and moral values but this goes against the grain of what our founding fathers had in mind. In the end, you have no choice but to tolerate because, the Law of the Land trumps the laws of god in every case imaginable in this country. This will never change either. In 50 years, religion will fade into political obscurity as future generations are more and more tolerant of an ever-changing, always evolving society. Multi-culturalism will supplant all other cultures as more races and religions intermarry and have kids. This is unavoidable.

One last thing, non-believers are the fastest growing segment in society. There are many studies that show this and I would link them but, alas, I have yet to reach awesome level 1 and cannot post links. We can thank education for this which is probably why the extreme right wants to dumb down the country. Stupid people are easy to fool.

You have no idea of what our founding fathers had in mind. Your brain is so polluted with the hate-filled rhetoric of the liberal left... dumb you down? That would take some mighty effort!

Non-spiritual people make up less that 10% in this country. You have a LONG LONG way to go before you start making bold predictions of the future, ace.

 

[BreezeWood]

You have no idea of what our founding fathers had in mind.

TJ: ... "the Law of the Land trumps the laws of god in every case imaginable in this country".

Bossy, to bad they did not write the document, for your kind.

.

 

[HUGGY]

Dear OP,

We are not hateful. We do not hate God. We simply want you to stop pushing your faith on us. If you stop trying to push your faith on us, we will stop pushing back.

This is a very basic scientific principal. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Stop promoting legislation that enforces your religious values and we will stop fighting back. You started this war a long time ago. Atheists were burned at the stake as far back as the dark ages.

What I personally find so hypocritical, is that your political party of choice is all about freedom and liberty and upholding the Constitution. Yet everyday you fight to curtail the liberties of people who do not believe in what you believe in. You seek to make these people into second class citizens. Whether it be homosexuals, blacks, hispanics, non-Christians, liberals.....it's really an epic case of utter hypocrisy.

I have no problems with Christians per say. I just have problems with some of the assholes in your group. Many of my closest friends are Christian they just do not lecture me about how I have to find God. They are rational Christians who also believe that our government should be religion neutral and the 14th Amendment nullifies any state ban on gay marriage because it DOES. This is another case where people who believe in the Constitution do not understand how it works. When they are told how it works, they say well we should still outlaw gays and gay marriage because......Jesus. How the f**k does one argue with that kind of mentality?

Let me be the first to apologize for the assholes in my group of Atheist, Agnostic and nones because, let's face it, there are assholes in every group. One thing is certain, we are here to stay and there is nothing you can or will ever do about it. Freedom is freedom so you are either for it or against it. You can't have it both ways.

On religious freedom, this is a vicious circle. According to many of the faithful, religious freedom means the right to discriminate as in to deny freedoms to those outside of your faith and moral values but this goes against the grain of what our founding fathers had in mind. In the end, you have no choice but to tolerate because, the Law of the Land trumps the laws of god in every case imaginable in this country. This will never change either. In 50 years, religion will fade into political obscurity as future generations are more and more tolerant of an ever-changing, always evolving society. Multi-culturalism will supplant all other cultures as more races and religions intermarry and have kids. This is unavoidable.

One last thing, non-believers are the fastest growing segment in society. There are many studies that show this and I would link them but, alas, I have yet to reach awesome level 1 and cannot post links. We can thank education for this which is probably why the extreme right wants to dumb down the country. Stupid people are easy to fool.

"We are not hateful"

Speak for yourself. These wackamos have had several thousand years to figure out that what they push is pure bullshit.

They have murdered and stolen from every society on the globe in the name of their stupid religion.

And THEY call atheists "hatefull" ?

Blow it out your poop shooter. Damned skippy I'm hatefull.

These moronic psychopathes have caused imeasurable harm death and mayhem and then come around saying THAT was when christians where like THEN and they take no responsibility for any of that bad stuff. Well ... pilgrim...last time I checked murder has no statute of limitations.

THEY and their churches ARE responsible for what they did to gain all that wealth and influence in our lives.

You can stand there like an imbecile and tell these evil fucks that YOU forgive and forget but NOT I.

 

[TheJedi]

?Nones? on the Rise | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

"In 2007 Pew Research Center surveys, 15.3% of U.S. adults answered a question about their current religion by saying they were atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular.” The number of religiously unaffiliated respondents has ticked up each year since, and now stands at 19.6%."

 

[emilynghiem]

Any god that was infinite, ultimate, and absolute would not have to hide.

Hi [MENTION=11281]sealybobo[/MENTION]
I thought of two good examples, where God's truth "doesn't have to hide"
but can be hiding "in plain sight" and we just can't see it yet

A. I can't find the post where [MENTION=48205]thebrucebeat[/MENTION] first said it
but when I posted that "Jesus means Justice" he automatically
retorted NO those two things have nothing in common, or something like that

When I share this same concept (that Jesus means Justice)
with Christian friends at different times and places, they responded differently, too:
a1. one of the friends took several minutes to realize this made sense to her.
that Jesus WAS Justice, but didn't get it at first. It took thinking about before she agreed.
a2. another friend at work IMMEDIATELY agreed of course, Jesus means Justice.
he did not have to think about it because he already understood this
a3. another friend was criticizing Christian fundamentalists for being unforgiving and hateful. once I explained the difference between Retributive Justice and Restorative Justice, he understood the division between the Christians who judge vs ones who forgive.
EVEN among believing Christians, this understanding of Jesus as Justice is HIDDEN or obscured.
It isn't obvious to all people, even though the concept is what it is; it is out there, not hidden, yet
we don't all see it, at first, or at all.

With Bruce who is secular and does not believe in using Biblical language or symbols
to ENFORCE positive things about justice, but only to ATTACK negative injustice,
I don't think he SEES that Jesus aligns with Justice.

So he is "blind" to this, it is HIDDEN from him.
He outright REJECTED any connection between Jesus with Justice.
He aligns Christian dogma with injustice, so this is FOREIGN that it is SUPPOSED
to mean Justice with Mercy, establishing Truth through Justice, etc.

B. the other example of hiding knowledge in plain public sight:
the science and studies on spiritual healing, and the effect of forgiveness and
deliverance on healing deep rooted sickness, addiction and abuse,
have already been established FOR THOSE WHO LOOK INTO THIS RESEARCH.

For those who want to keep reinforcing REJECTION of the natural science of healing,
this knowledge is OFF LIMITS, inaccessible, or Nonexistence.

it might as well be FRAUD with the malpractice and abuse of religion that is heard in the news.

The SUCCESSFUL testimonies, case studies and research is also out there.
But it is "hidden in plain sight"

People are too busy fighting over religious division between faith and science.
Not all people are ready to see that science can prove these methods of healing work naturally.

So that is a prime example, which I find fascinating,
but TRAGIC that lives could be saved by these methods that are censored due to
religious rejection of anything to do with Christian prayer, practice and healing process.

All accessible to the public, yet not accessible and cut off by division and rejection.
Like having "water everywhere" and "not a drop to drink."

 

[emilynghiem]

No one that I am aware of has made anyone a "second class citizen." Conservatives reject the notion of class, we are all Americans who have the same equal rights under the Constitution.

areas where people are not equal, but prone to oppression
1. inequality in ownership of land
as long as we live under taxation by govt
then we are not equal
we would all have to be equal owners of land or property
similar to churches that don't pay taxes
or cities that manage their own property taxes
in order to be fully equal with all others

2. inequality in authority of law
as long as we do not have equal consent or input
in decision making, then the current monopoly
on the legal and legislative system makes us unequal.
we do NOT have equal defense or representation
as long as the process is skewed by money, by lawyers/judges, by officials
in govt who can pass laws or mandates without consent of the people affected

3. inequality in freedom of speech and press and right to petition to redress grievances
Not all people have free and equal access to media
as we do here.
so we are not equal in the ability to defend and represent our interests
using resources that support our freedom of speech, press, right to petition,
and access to democratic/due process
we would have to organize resources and networks to reach ALL people,
provide media and computer literacy and access, and assistance with communication and mediating
conflicts, in order to ensure "equal representation" and "redress of grievances" for all people equally.

4. one area that is unequal that we CAN do something about:
we are not all equal in our knowledge and experience with
healing past injustice or wrong, and breaking the cycle of "abuse" of relationships and power

if we understand the power of "forgiveness" in healing and corrections,
then we have more power than those without this concept on a "spiritual" or "psychological" level.

this area of unequal empowerment CAN be rectified:
once we understand this power of influence in relationships, of forgiveness and correction,
we can address all the other areas of inequality, and restore
free and equal access to all people, so we can govern and defend our own interests
without fear of oppression, discrimination, domination, coercion or exclusion by others.

We must forgive conflicts, injustices, and differences first, in order to heal and rebuild on a stable foundation.
then we can go about correcting them and restore equal respect in relations and society.