Zone1 Why do you need gods?

[Meriweather]

or how about those Christians who fail to see themselves as fallen and in need of salvation? Do they get it as well?

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Jesus said we are the salt of the earth. You want them to disagree with Jesus?

 

[Meriweather]

Your faith says I will be damned to hell.

It does not.

 

[Meriweather]

YOUR God is the one in the Bible. I am sorry to break it to you but YOUR OWN FAITH already ruled that YOU are not allowed to simply toss out the OT.

That is why I did just the opposite and instead delved deeply into the Old Testament. Our ancestors were brilliant storytellers. Not yet much into journalism, but fantastic storytellers.

 

[Meriweather]

What if I fail to "experience" God in any real way. Should I just "mouth" the words? How can I love God with all my heart and soul IF I FAIL TO FEEL THAT HE IS REAL?

Jews via the Hebrew Bible (also known as the Old Testament) teach love of Law leads to love of God. It is also true that love of God leads to love of God's Law. One can enter the circle at any point.

 

[Meriweather]

What are his ways? And how do you know them?

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." He is also the same person who taught, "Seek and you will find."

Word.

 

[Mashmont]

Is that why so many priests were doctors and scientists?

Many

How many priests were doctors and scientists? Compare that number to non-priests who are doctors and scientists.

Proportionately a lot more were doctors and scientists.

Show us the data to support your statement that ''most modern historians don't even use the term "Dark Ages".

If you're interested, you'll look it up.

You want to see the results of religious totalitarianism, you will find it in the most backwards, poor, dark, shackled societies on the planet. Strange how entire portions of the globe which are the poorest and most dangerous are those places under the bootheel of religion.

Ah, there we go again with that pivot from Christianity to Islam so you can bash worldwide religion again. So which currently Christian country is anywhere near the dark hell hole the five officially atheist countries are.

 

[Hollie]

You guys should all just read the Bible entirely and like it.

Don’t worry about whether God exists or not. Just learn God’s character from the words of the Bible. Then there is no arguing. Everybody will know what God is like.

The problem for Christianity is that co-opting the Hebrew God via what they call the OT represents a very different God than the one represented in the Bible. When Christianity stole evolved from Judaism it brought along the Old Testament god who had little in common in personality or behavior with the god referred to in the New Testament. It's difficult not to notice the difference between the Hebrew God, who is vengeful and bloodthirsty (e.g., Gen. 6-8; Exod. 7-11) and commands and aids the slaughter of one's enemies (e.g., Exod. 32:27-28; Deut. 3:6; Num. 31:1-18), versus the Christian God, who preaches peace and commands people to love their enemies.

Ultimately, none of the authors whose writings were made a part of the Bible ever met the Big Kahuna. To ''know god'' by the events ascribed to him which never happened; global flood, for example seems a pointless exercise.

 

[Hollie]

Many

Yeah. Not that many.

Proportionately a lot more were doctors and scientists.

What proportion?

If you're interested, you'll look it up.

I did. You didn't.

Ah, there we go again with that pivot from Christianity to Islam so you can bash worldwide religion again. So which currently Christian country is anywhere near the dark hell hole the five officially atheist countries are.

What is an ''officially atheist country''?

What countries are (officially) Christian?

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." He is also the same person who taught, "Seek and you will find."

Word.

Then you are using 100% Biblical information here. And, as I've been told by many pious people, Jesus very much took his Old Testament God quite seriously.

Remember: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

(Which of course kind of puts the kibosh on this idea that Hebrew laws no longer hold sway).

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Jews via the Hebrew Bible (also known as the Old Testament) teach love of Law leads to love of God. It is also true that love of God leads to love of God's Law. One can enter the circle at any point.

Not really. But if it gives you comfort what OTHER religious people tell you and you don't want to listen to what an actual ATHEIST is telling you about their faith journey directly then by all means keep telling the atheists who to get it right.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

That is why I did just the opposite and instead delved deeply into the Old Testament. Our ancestors were brilliant storytellers. Not yet much into journalism, but fantastic storytellers.

And you feel that in at least some (many) passages they simply made up the role God played in the slaughters?

Storytellers, indeed!

If they made up the bits about God commanding genocide (1Sam15:3) and the other slaughters of people that God delivered into Joshua et al's hands to be put to the sword, is it not just slightly possible they made up ALL of the stuff about God?

Not saying they did. Just, well, if. part of it is simply made up of whole cloth, maybe you and I have EXACTLY the same faith! We just differ in the amount of the God-stuff we opt to toss out.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

It does not.

Really? That's surprising to hear.

Do tell me, in your VERSION of "Catholicism", what happens to those who refuse the gift of grace and fail to accept Jesus as their savior and who fail to love God with all their heart and soul?

I'm genuinely interested! Your "Catholicism" (or whatever name you wish to put on it) is utterly amazing. I really like it! It allows me to make up a God I like from the pieces in the Bible that I most prefer. And there's NO DOWNSIDE for people who fail to follow the rules of this God!

From your mouth to God's ear.

I'm just going to remind you that in ACTUAL Catholicism, they very much DO believe that damnation is possible.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Jesus said we are the salt of the earth. You want them to disagree with Jesus?

So do you think one has to actually ACCEPT Jesus as their savior to be saved?

You really are confusing on this topic. It seems that in your "Catholicism" (new name TBD) there's literally no downside even for atheists!

If there's no actual rules for "salvation" and no punishment for failure to love God and accept Jesus, then I think we're all good here. I'll continue to be an atheist (because in this new religion there's no problem there!) and I'll catch ya' on the flipside up in heaven!

Thanks!

I hope your new religion grows. It sounds pretty cool. Especially if you get to have a "choose your adventure" style holy book!

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Can't you sense it?

Thanks. I needed the laugh.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

We have different perspectives on a Biblical story, so your conclude that God is of my own making? Do you want to know my conclusion?

If you think that some stories in which God commands genocide are to be tossed away (there is literally no way to read that as metaphorical) then you and I are very much the same.

I choose to also toss away the supernatural stuff and the invisible being stuff and the pillar of fire stuff.

We only differ by degrees.

We have different perspectives on a Biblical story. End of story...

Mine requires less "invisible subtext".

If we were reading a Stephen King Novel I'd be OK with that being our primary difference. But we aren't are we? We are talking about the establishment of FUNDAMENTAL TRUTH.

You didn't come to Yahweh God through pure reason. No, you heard about the faith (if you are a Cradle Catholic you were raised in it, no choice) and it was put in your head. That God is, indeed, the God of the Bible. Sure people lard all sorts of their own wishes on God all the time. And you absorbed some of other people's views of God.

You needed the Bible. Even Catholic revelation wouldn't accept something that gainsaid God's word I would assume. I would be VERY surprised if a Catholic saint fell into a trance and gave God's holy word that the 10 Commandments were no longer valid and the Church would say "Hey, that's legit!"

So you're stuck with the Bible. Which means you're stuck with the description of God. Sum total. And getting those rules WRONG is a VERY BAD THING in most religions (obviously your new version of Catholicism in which everyone gets salvation regardless of anything else won't be impacted here).

So, again, kudos for you for making your version of God. In a very real sense everyone does. And we all hope other people's version of God looks like YOURS does. A super nice guy with no hang-ups and is really everyone's friend even when the other person doesn't experience this god at all.

That isn't the God of the Old Testament. Not by a long shot. That isn't the God featured in the first commandment of the 10. That isn't the "jealous God" of the OT.

And that God is very much the God discussed by Jesus who said no jot or tittle of the law shall go away.

 

[Meriweather]

Remember: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Jews note that all were given the Noahide Laws. Jews were given additional Laws, intended for Jews alone, not all.

 

[Meriweather]

(Which of course kind of puts the kibosh on this idea that Hebrew laws no longer hold sway).

Hebrew Laws have always held sway and continue to do so for those following the Jewish faith. Noahide Laws continue on, as always, for non Jews.

 

[Meriweather]

Not really. But if it gives you comfort what OTHER religious people tell you and you don't want to listen to what an actual ATHEIST is telling you about their faith journey directly then by all means keep telling the atheists who to get it right.

How does noting what Jews say compared to what Christians say have anything to do with what the atheists in my own family say? If you are interested, my atheist grandfather (as did his son) noted that he did fine following his own conscience. Years later my atheist husband told me the same. In fact, I have never heard any atheists say they are guided on anything other than conscience.
If you wish to share your own faith journey, you already know I am interested--I told you I was. You indicated you were not interested in sharing with me, so out of respect for your wishes, I have asked nothing further. My interest remains, you need only speak up.

 

[Meriweather]

Do tell me, in your VERSION of "Catholicism", what happens to those who refuse the gift of grace and fail to accept Jesus as their savior and who fail to love God with all their heart and soul?

I agree with Catechism of the Catholic Church which states we do not know who, if anyone is in hell. Such judgement is left solely in the hands of a loving and merciful God. Further, the Church defines 'hell' as separation from God, that hell is in no way predestined but a choice of those who choose such separation through their own words and actions.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm genuinely interested! Your "Catholicism" (or whatever name you wish to put on it) is utterly amazing. I really like it! It allows me to make up a God I like from the pieces in the Bible that I most prefer. And there's NO DOWNSIDE for people who fail to follow the rules of this God!

Am I the only one who finds it odd that research on the language, culture, and rabbi commentaries of a Hebrew story of the Old Testament is now known as "Catholicism"?

Further, the work done researching and studying a Biblical story to discover the intent of the original author to his original audience is just using "pieces" of this story to make up a supreme being?

Logic suggests no one needs years of study to make up a God.