Zone1 Why do you need gods?

[Meriweather]

What about those who DON'T want it but are given it? (Yes, that happens)

Who is given separation that does not want it?

 

[Meriweather]

Do we take the net down and play something that we CALL tennis but isn't really tennis? Or do we have a set of rules of logic?

A comparison to a game? Okay. Someone trips during the game on the tennis court and breaks a leg. Game over. If the break is bad enough, the person never returns to a tennis court.

In the theological event: Someone reads the English translation through the perspective of Modern Western culture, trip up...and their faith shatters.

The person with the broken leg or the shattered faith may then wish to warn everyone they should also give up tennis or faith and explain the perils.

 

[Meriweather]

The theology of a rational God does not allow for games like this

If there is faith God is rational, then seek the rationale. If faith has shattered, move on.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

That is a statement of little--if not any--faith in God.

You mean God demands we do something stupid?

My point being: presumably God wants ACTUAL love and worship not just some potemkin village of it. That's all I can give since I don't feel he is real.

I hope I've been clear here (but I sense some of you on here never actually "debate" theology and you are uncertain of yourselves here) is that the highest value to me is for any God worthy of worship to be LOGICAL and RATIONAL. And, most important of all, NOT require that I build a rational, logical version from the pieces and parts everyone tells me are there.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

A comparison to a game? Okay. Someone trips during the game on the tennis court and breaks a leg. Game over. If the break is bad enough, the person never returns to a tennis court.

In the theological event: Someone reads the English translation through the perspective of Modern Western culture, trip up...and their faith shatters.

Here's where that breaks down:

You cannot eliminate the Bible from Christianity. That is precisely what you have suggested here. Oh sure you are going to cringe because you LOVE The Bible. But what it really seems like to me is you love your favorite PARTS of the Bible and you conveniently "write off" those parts you don't like.

You don't like vicious murder of toddlers. But it's in the Bible as something God approved. Something God actually wanted.

If that part is made up, how do I know that the REST of it isn't made up?


You want the God of the BIble because that is the God your faith (Catholicism) settled on and lovingly crafted. Centuries of Catholic thought went into "God". The Catholic Church SPECIFICALLY CHOSE the books of the BIble that were "canonical".

What right do YOU have to gainsay all the Church Fathers?

(I hope, hope, hope you get the point of my posts at this point since I can't really make it any simpler for you)

 

[Meriweather]

And if you didn't feel God's presence and didn't love him and if you were accidentally born a Protestant where "works" are not justification then I sense you are screwed.

It is my understanding Protestants believe in the Holy Spirit and His ability to work within? It is also my understanding that God's laws are written on the hearts of all men, and people are known for following their hearts.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

That is a statement of little--if not any--faith in God.

It is, sadly, as God made me.

If he wants me to worship him, he knows exactly how to get that. And HE is the one who made me this way.

 

[Meriweather]

But you and I both know that YOU have the right approach. Your version of God will be the controlling one, even if countless other Christians tell you that isn't really how God will judge you.

Once again, our ways are not God's ways and our thoughts are not His thoughts. That is the place to start--and it will certainly be the end game. What we are taught is to love God, place Him first, and love our fellowman.

I am fine with every person of faith (or of no faith) holding different perspectives. I mentioned before, I enjoy gathering possibilities, but at the end of the day I always go back to, Our ways are not God's ways and our thoughts are not His thoughts. God's will be the last possibility to gather...and only then will we have the reality.

 

[Meriweather]

The only reason I keep harping on this is because God is either a super-friendly "pick-your-own-adventure" build-a-god snaptogether kit where we get to make God so he pleases us, or he's the God that is featured in the Bible in all his glory and viciousness and arbitrariness.

Or He is neither, but Is as He describes Himself, "I am who I am." I doubt we can put Him in one of two boxes. Even people have trouble staying in the boxes to which others assign them.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Once again, our ways are not God's ways and our thoughts are not His thoughts.

It appears to me YOU have thoughts as well. I assume that you are of the opinion that your thoughts are more in line with God's thoughts. How else could you function?

That is the place to start--and it will certainly be the end game. What we are taught is to love God, place Him first, and love our fellowman.

We are taught that NOW. I suspect the Amalekite children were taught something very, very different.

I am fine with every person of faith (or of no faith) holding different perspectives.

Because in the game of ultimate truth there's no reason to assume there's any ultimate truth.

I mentioned before, I enjoy gathering possibilities, but at the end of the day I always go back to, Our ways are not God's ways and our thoughts are not His thoughts. God's will be the last possibility to gather...and only then will we have the reality.

Can you understand my point? Just try. Just for a second, pray to God to forgive you for blasphemous thoughts for a second and try: I am working from the CLEARLY STATED FACTS of NUMEROUS Christians sects that tell me that if I fail to please God or "accept his gift" or whatever, there will be literal hell to pay.

Here you are telling me that GOd's a cool dude! He would never take someone for whom faith is pain and damn them to hell! That would be immensely cruel.

But you're just one person with a version of God that seems largely made up. Ungrounded in the Bible or at least partially divorced from. That's attractive.

And the same Bible you have taken a scalpel to tells me that narrow is the path to God and wide and easy is the path to perdition.

 

[Meriweather]

It sounds like your God enjoys both "Grace" (a concept I love and see applications for in secular society) but also "works" for justification. That pleases an atheist to know that dealing with the problems of real people on the earth instead of just closing one's eyes and praying are important to the whole equation.

Grace is a gift that is given. Giving a gift implies work. I see no reason to either parse or dissect the two. Love is a blessing both given and received. Both are grace, both are action (work).

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Here's an interesting wrinkle: Have any of you folks ever heard of "Scrupulosity"? It's a legit mental illness (part of the OCD suite) in which people obsess on their faith. They worry non-stop that they have offended God or committed some sin and they live in abject horror.

It may sound funny when you first hear it, but trust me, I've seen folks suffering from it. Most of us wouldn't last a day in their shoes.

I once met a young man who was being treated for OCD and scrupulosity. Walking down the hallway with this guy was a task. Every time he RANDOMLY THOUGHT something that he feared was blasphemous, he would have to (be compelled to) kneel down, touch the floor 5 times and then stand back up and go on.

Now this is a mental illness. No one expects it to be "rational". But here's my question for the pious:

Why would God allow a disease to exist that one is likely born with, that turns "faith" into a torture?

 

[Meriweather]

But you and I both know that thousands of people have been murdered over these "choices of God". And God didn't step in and set out more truth for us. We got to murder each other until enough people got tired of the blood that we just sat back and continued to create out own versions of God.

Start with, Don't murder.

 

[Meriweather]

If God, the ruler of the entire universe, the ONLY TRUTH, eternal and unchanging, can change to fit modern mores then I say "Keep up the good work! Make a God that everyone gets along with and doesn't have any onerous requirements!"

I prefer His challenges.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Start with, Don't murder.

Have you ever heard the phrase "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out"?

Yeah, that comes from the Albigensian Crusade in which the Catholic Church murdered an heretical sect in southern France. The phrase was anecdotally claimed to have been said by the Papal Legate at the time. Only in Latin: Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.

I agree. No one should murder. Least of all the Catholic Church.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

I prefer His challenges.

I prefer not to be challenged when the players are not on an equal footing and the price isn't possible eternal torment.

Thanks.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm surprised you don't get that.

I get that assessment of me. It's wrong, so what it's not a matter of not "getting" it, it's a matter of passing over it.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

I get that assessment of me. It's wrong, so what it's not a matter of not "getting" it, it's a matter of passing over it.

It's wrong? So you accept all the bits in the Bible about God?

You accept the calls to Genocide and to put all living people in a town to the edge of a sword?

No, no you don't. But those are part of the Bible.

So how is it NOT you paring out uncomfortable parts based on your preferences?

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Here's an interesting wrinkle: Have any of you folks ever heard of "Scrupulosity"? It's a legit mental illness (part of the OCD suite) in which people obsess on their faith. They worry non-stop that they have offended God or committed some sin and they live in abject horror.

It may sound funny when you first hear it, but trust me, I've seen folks suffering from it. Most of us wouldn't last a day in their shoes.

I once met a young man who was being treated for OCD and scrupulosity. Walking down the hallway with this guy was a task. Every time he RANDOMLY THOUGHT something that he feared was blasphemous, he would have to (be compelled to) kneel down, touch the floor 5 times and then stand back up and go on.

Now this is a mental illness. No one expects it to be "rational". But here's my question for the pious:

Why would God allow a disease to exist that one is likely born with, that turns "faith" into a torture?

I'm genuinely curious, Meriweather . Can you explain this to me in your version of God?

 

[Meriweather]

My point being: presumably God wants ACTUAL love and worship not just some potemkin village of it. That's all I can give since I don't feel he is real.

'Potemkin villages'? I need a more precise description of these.

Is love real? Is goodness real? If one feels these are real, one can give them.