Why does the left demonize affordable energy?

[washamericom]

In 100 years from now, nobody will be using fossil fuel; not because of government mandate (hopefully), but because of technology developed by the private sector.

Yes, Magic Pixie Dust from our great Capitalist Overlords...

They've resisted clean energy kicking and screaming the whole way.

Myth. Clean energy. It doesn't exist.

i think it does with the sun, but we need more technology.

 

[whitehall]

Regardless of the rhetoric of a president who vows to reduce the U.S. to a 3rd world country (like his father's home country) by "weaning the U.S. off oil dependence" there is no substitute for fossil fuel at this time in history. Hypocrite lefties drool over rich Saudi princes but they forget that Saudi Arabia is rich because they drill for fossil fuel. Low information lefties are so stupid that they think they are being kind to the environment when they promote the use of solar energy equipment and gigantic batteries made from stuff so toxic that they have to make it in China. The presumed democrat candidate vows to put coal miners and the coal industry out of work but the hypocrite left doesn't seem to care about the United Mine Workers union as much as any other labor unions. It's hard to get inside the minds of left wingers because they operate on emotion and thrive on low information but it seems that generations of hypocrite lefties have been taught to blame the greatest Country in the world, where they live in peace and relative comfort, for all the problems in the rest of the world. It's ironic that hypocrite lefties refer to the right wing as "anti intellectual" while they rely on the doctrine of man made global warming developed by an angry defeated pervert politician with no background in science.

 

[washamericom]

They might. They spend a hell of a lot of time and money trying to scare the hell out of people.

The real problem is that nobody gets a bill from the government for environmental costs. It's intrinsic in all the products we buy. You never see it, but it's there.

DumBama forced restaurants to post calorie count on all their items. I say we should do the same with our products. Have Trump and the Republicans write a law that all products have to contain their environmental costs on the package.

Perhaps if people knew what they were actually paying out of their pockets for these costs, there wouldn't be so much support for it.

Guy, you live in a city where the River used to catch on fire because it was so fucking polluted.

Maybe you should think about the cost of NOT doing the environmental things.

That was different Joe. Putting chemicals in the river was experimental as the theory was the water would dilute the chemicals so much that they wouldn't be traceable. When the river caught fire, the theory was proven wrong. Water doesn't catch on fire, so we had empirical evidence that yes, those chemicals were polluting the waters.

That's not the case with other environmental situations that in most instances, are just quite normal such as warmer winters, hurricanes, tornadoes and so forth. Unlike the river, it's simply an unproven theory that we have spent trillions of dollars on, and made nobody happy in the process. In fact, I would be willing to bet that environmentalists are more unhappy now than they were 35 years ago.

Of course the enviro wackos are unhappy. They are liberals. And on planet liberal, if one is not miserable or complaining, something is wrong.

climate change and the ipcc are wrong.

 

[washamericom]

One of our customers was a big lib. He had a big windmill running his operations. I always found windmills decorative in a way. Talking with one of the workers one day, he told me that the owner finally broke even on his windmill investment after seven years, and the rest is free energy.

About two months went by and I went to the stop again, I was surprised that the top half of the windmill was gone. The owner was in back of the shop and I asked him about the windmill. He just pushed his two hands in the air as if he were pushing away something and said Aaaaaa.

Nobody is against better ways to create energy, but it has to be cost effective at the same time. I live in one of the windiest places in the country, so the city was considering putting up a giant windmill on Lake Erie. After doing the calculations, it would end up costing more to maintain and repair such a windmill than it would to just produce energy the way we are now.

Average life on a windmill is about 22 years. Many manufacturers base their calculations on 40 years but this is not reality based. 8 years is not the norm on a small commercial system. That is what one would expect out of something you buy off eBay.

I don't know where you are getting your figures from or how accurate they are. But windmills do break down before they are absolutely unrepairable. And from what I understand, the costs of repair and maintenance outweigh the savings.

Depends on the design. Windmills are inherently simple. The only part that is sophisticated is the electric generator that is spun by the blades. Electric generators is just a single axel with spun copper and magnets. The generator should last a very long time if it was a commercial quality unit as most are even sealed units that don't require the maintenance of any lubricating systems until you get into the largest units.

The blades are normally aluminum and the base is stainless steel.

Windpower is viable in areas with a high enough constant wind profile as an additional energy source. This is slightly over 1/2 of the United States.

You're not going to find many places windier than Cleveland. Once I read where Cleveland was windier than the windy city of Chicago technically.

They really wanted to build that windmill on Lake Erie but backed off of the idea because of cost. Even looking at the most extreme, if there was some savings to be had, it would be so little that it wouldn't worth the trouble.

If it were a real investment, hell, I would put one in my backyard. I have enough room for it and if it really saved me money, I wouldn't mind trimming the grass around the thing.

Actually Chicago is not in the top ten windiest cities in the US.
The average daily wind velocity in Chicago is 9.9 mph. That's outside the top 5 in Illinois.

and it wasn't named for it's climate, windy came from politics... ironically.
but it is windy off the lake like that. just wait till they unionize the weather.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

One of our customers was a big lib. He had a big windmill running his operations. I always found windmills decorative in a way. Talking with one of the workers one day, he told me that the owner finally broke even on his windmill investment after seven years, and the rest is free energy.

About two months went by and I went to the stop again, I was surprised that the top half of the windmill was gone. The owner was in back of the shop and I asked him about the windmill. He just pushed his two hands in the air as if he were pushing away something and said Aaaaaa.

Nobody is against better ways to create energy, but it has to be cost effective at the same time. I live in one of the windiest places in the country, so the city was considering putting up a giant windmill on Lake Erie. After doing the calculations, it would end up costing more to maintain and repair such a windmill than it would to just produce energy the way we are now.

Average life on a windmill is about 22 years. Many manufacturers base their calculations on 40 years but this is not reality based. 8 years is not the norm on a small commercial system. That is what one would expect out of something you buy off eBay.

I don't know where you are getting your figures from or how accurate they are. But windmills do break down before they are absolutely unrepairable. And from what I understand, the costs of repair and maintenance outweigh the savings.

Depends on the design. Windmills are inherently simple. The only part that is sophisticated is the electric generator that is spun by the blades. Electric generators is just a single axel with spun copper and magnets. The generator should last a very long time if it was a commercial quality unit as most are even sealed units that don't require the maintenance of any lubricating systems until you get into the largest units.

The blades are normally aluminum and the base is stainless steel.

Windpower is viable in areas with a high enough constant wind profile as an additional energy source. This is slightly over 1/2 of the United States.

You're not going to find many places windier than Cleveland. Once I read where Cleveland was windier than the windy city of Chicago technically.

They really wanted to build that windmill on Lake Erie but backed off of the idea because of cost. Even looking at the most extreme, if there was some savings to be had, it would be so little that it wouldn't worth the trouble.

If it were a real investment, hell, I would put one in my backyard. I have enough room for it and if it really saved me money, I wouldn't mind trimming the grass around the thing.

Actually Chicago is not in the top ten windiest cities in the US.
The average daily wind velocity in Chicago is 9.9 mph. That's outside the top 5 in Illinois.

I guess they just call it the windy city because like Cleveland, it's windy all the damn time:

City MPH KPH
Boston, Massachusetts 12.3 19.8
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 12.2 19.6
Buffalo, New York 11.8 19.0
Milwaukee, Wisconsin 11.5 18.5
Dallas, Texas 10.7 17.2
Kansas City, Missouri 10.6 17.1
San Francisco, California 10.6 17.1
Cleveland, Ohio 10.5 16.9
Minneapolis, Minnesota 10.5 16.9
Virginia Beach, Virginia 10.5 16.9
Providence, Rhode Island 10.4 16.7
Chicago, Illinois 10.3 16.6
Detroit, Michigan 10.2 16.4

Windiest City in America - Current Results

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

They might. They spend a hell of a lot of time and money trying to scare the hell out of people.

The real problem is that nobody gets a bill from the government for environmental costs. It's intrinsic in all the products we buy. You never see it, but it's there.

DumBama forced restaurants to post calorie count on all their items. I say we should do the same with our products. Have Trump and the Republicans write a law that all products have to contain their environmental costs on the package.

Perhaps if people knew what they were actually paying out of their pockets for these costs, there wouldn't be so much support for it.

Guy, you live in a city where the River used to catch on fire because it was so fucking polluted.

Maybe you should think about the cost of NOT doing the environmental things.

That was different Joe. Putting chemicals in the river was experimental as the theory was the water would dilute the chemicals so much that they wouldn't be traceable. When the river caught fire, the theory was proven wrong. Water doesn't catch on fire, so we had empirical evidence that yes, those chemicals were polluting the waters.

That's not the case with other environmental situations that in most instances, are just quite normal such as warmer winters, hurricanes, tornadoes and so forth. Unlike the river, it's simply an unproven theory that we have spent trillions of dollars on, and made nobody happy in the process. In fact, I would be willing to bet that environmentalists are more unhappy now than they were 35 years ago.

Of course the enviro wackos are unhappy. They are liberals. And on planet liberal, if one is not miserable or complaining, something is wrong.

Or they do whatever it takes to make others miserable. After all, you really aren't a liberal unless you're ruining somebody else's fun or enjoyment in life.

 

[mamooth]

Because the left doesn't know what they think themselves until somebody tells them.

My, aren't you the proud little authoritarian.

And clearly, it bothers a lot when nobody except your fellow circle-jerkers will pay attention to your authoritarian edicts. No wonder you're always crying so hard about the liberals who stole your girl and had all the fun and beat you up on the playground.

Anyways, the main conclusion to be drawn from this thread is how a significant number of hardcore conservatives are delusional authoritarians.

About ten years ago when I was watching the news, some local company invented an engine that ran on water. Two days later the news followed up. They said to stop e-mailing the company because it was purely experimental. They couldn't sell the engine because water creates water vapor which is considered the most dangerous gas. They would need EPA approval which they couldn't get in a million years.

The secondary conclusion is that those conservatives are constantly falling prey to the craziest conspiracy theories out there, due to their complete inability to use reason. They run entirely on emotion, so if a cult leader appeals to their emotions, they can get those conservatives to believe almost anything, no matter how stupid it is.

If you really want to get those conservatives mad, just point to the economic success of renewable energy. That's because they see the two things they hate most succeeding, capitalism and renewable energy, and it drives them over the edge.

 

[mamooth]

They really wanted to build that windmill on Lake Erie but backed off of the idea because of cost. Even looking at the most extreme, if there was some savings to be had, it would be so little that it wouldn't worth the trouble.

Offshore Wind - LEEDCo - Lake Erie Energy Development Corporation - Cleveland OH

If you read up on the upcoming Lake Erie project, you'll find the challenge was in making the foundations ice resistant. Unlike as with ocean locations that mount wind turbines, the Great Lakes freeze.

 

[mamooth]

how close are we to building solar collector panels into the bodies of cars that sit in the sun all day? florida the west etc. it seems like a partial solution to me.

It's very inefficient. Because most surfaces on the car are not angled towards the sun, you'd be catching very little sunlight, especially at your northern latitude. It would also be adding extra weight to the vehicle, decreasing efficiency further.

The smarter solution? Build a carport, roof angled towards the sun at the correct angle, and put the solar panels on that roof, the power inverter and battery as well, then park there and charge off that. Or put the panels on the roof of the house or garage, if it's south-facing.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Because the left doesn't know what they think themselves until somebody tells them.

My, aren't you the proud little authoritarian.

And clearly, it bothers a lot when nobody except your fellow circle-jerkers will pay attention to your authoritarian edicts. No wonder you're always crying so hard about the liberals who stole your girl and had all the fun and beat you up on the playground.

Anyways, the main conclusion to be drawn from this thread is how a significant number of hardcore conservatives are delusional authoritarians.

About ten years ago when I was watching the news, some local company invented an engine that ran on water. Two days later the news followed up. They said to stop e-mailing the company because it was purely experimental. They couldn't sell the engine because water creates water vapor which is considered the most dangerous gas. They would need EPA approval which they couldn't get in a million years.

The secondary conclusion is that those conservatives are constantly falling prey to the craziest conspiracy theories out there, due to their complete inability to use reason. They run entirely on emotion, so if a cult leader appeals to their emotions, they can get those conservatives to believe almost anything, no matter how stupid it is.

If you really want to get those conservatives mad, just point to the economic success of renewable energy. That's because they see the two things they hate most succeeding, capitalism and renewable energy, and it drives them over the edge.

My, aren't you the proud little authoritarian.

And clearly, it bothers a lot when nobody except your fellow circle-jerkers will pay attention to your authoritarian edicts. No wonder you're always crying so hard about the liberals who stole your girl and had all the fun and beat you up on the playground.

Anyways, the main conclusion to be drawn from this thread is how a significant number of hardcore conservatives are delusional authoritarians.

Yes that is true. Now you are forced to buy healthcare insurance against your will by the federal government and states are forced to accept gay marriage agains their will. We won't even get into the military thing.

But yes, liberals are very violent people. That's why we conservatives carry our guns with us and liberals want to disarm the public.

The secondary conclusion is that those conservatives are constantly falling prey to the craziest conspiracy theories out there, due to their complete inability to use reason. They run entirely on emotion, so if a cult leader appeals to their emotions, they can get those conservatives to believe almost anything, no matter how stupid it is.

If you really want to get those conservatives mad, just point to the economic success of renewable energy. That's because they see the two things they hate most succeeding, capitalism and renewable energy, and it drives them over the edge.

Economic success of renewable energy? What economic success? Government has to subsidize renewable energy in order to get anybody interested in it. Renewable energy is less reliable and more expensive. Who wants that other than a tree hugging liberal?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

They really wanted to build that windmill on Lake Erie but backed off of the idea because of cost. Even looking at the most extreme, if there was some savings to be had, it would be so little that it wouldn't worth the trouble.

Offshore Wind - LEEDCo - Lake Erie Energy Development Corporation - Cleveland OH

If you read up on the upcoming Lake Erie project, you'll find the challenge was in making the foundations ice resistant. Unlike as with ocean locations that mount wind turbines, the Great Lakes freeze.

That's one of the problems, yes, but again, not economical unless the government steps in:

The Lake Erie Energy Development Corporation (LEEDCo) got a boost this past week when windmill developer Fred Olsen Renewables, headquartered in Oslo, Norway — previously slated to build the six demonstration offshore windmill units off of Cleveland’s shoreline — pledged their investment in the project. In May, the project took a hit when the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) notified LEEDCo that the nearly $47 million in grant money that they applied for was awarded elsewhere.

As the trapped water is pumped out, it forms a secure vacuum seal. In the meantime, none of the three other East Coast locations that beat out LEEDCo for the grants were able to secure electrical power purchase agreements because of projected kilowatt hour prices or construction bid estimates that came in grossly over budget. So, now LEEDCo is in line to claim over $40 million of these funds next year. If wind power is such a great idea, electric power companies would be tripping over themselves to invest in it, but have thus far only reluctantly bought into it because of legislative mandates. Taxpayers are the biggest investors to date, with development and research grants a euphemism for our tax money, are expected to exceed $50 million.

Lake Erie windmills a good thing?

 

[mamooth]

Yes that is true. Now you are forced to buy healthcare insurance against your will by the federal government and states are forced to accept gay marriage agains their will.

Yeah, and we're forced to accept interracial marriage as well. Damn that government!

We won't even get into the military thing.

Let's do. One hallmark of authoritarianism is mindless glorify of the the military and police, which we also see in conservatives.

But yes, liberals are very violent people. That's why we conservatives carry our guns with us and liberals want to disarm the public.

As you're the ones carrying guns and constantly making veiled threats, you would appear to be the violent one. I suggest you stop doing so publicly, as if there's ever an incident, the DA will be looking at a history of what you've said when determining your intent.

Economic success of renewable energy? What economic success? Government has to subsidize renewable energy in order to get anybody interested in it. Renewable energy is less reliable and more expensive. Who wants that other than a tree hugging liberal?

You understand how you can't pass off your cult nonsense to anyone outside of your cult, right?

Probably not. You're simply too deeply embedded in your cult's anti-reality bubble, and the real world can't penetrate. You actually believe all the cult dogma that you spout.

 

[mamooth]

That's one of the problems, yes, but again, not economical unless the government steps in

On Lake Erie, maybe. Doing great in other parts of Ohio, on land.

I notice you're not bringing that up. Instead, you cherrypick the most difficult spot to build on, Lake Erie, as if it were typical.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Yes that is true. Now you are forced to buy healthcare insurance against your will by the federal government and states are forced to accept gay marriage agains their will.

Yeah, and we're forced to accept interracial marriage as well. Damn that government!

We won't even get into the military thing.

Let's do. One hallmark of authoritarianism is mindless glorify of the the military and police, which we also see in conservatives.

But yes, liberals are very violent people. That's why we conservatives carry our guns with us and liberals want to disarm the public.

As you're the ones carrying guns and constantly making veiled threats, you would appear to be the violent one. I suggest you stop doing so publicly, as if there's ever an incident, the DA will be looking at a history of what you've said when determining your intent.

Economic success of renewable energy? What economic success? Government has to subsidize renewable energy in order to get anybody interested in it. Renewable energy is less reliable and more expensive. Who wants that other than a tree hugging liberal?

You understand how you can't pass off your cult nonsense to anyone outside of your cult, right?

Probably not. You're simply too deeply embedded in your cult's anti-reality bubble, and the real world can't penetrate. You actually believe all the cult dogma that you spout.

Yeah, and we're forced to accept interracial marriage as well. Damn that government!

We won't even get into the military thing.

Let's do. One hallmark of authoritarianism is mindless glorify of the the military and police, which we also see in conservatives.

Yes you do see that. Conservatives side with good and liberals always side with evil. So of course we glorify the good just like you glorify the evil. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

As you're the ones carrying guns and constantly making veiled threats, you would appear to be the violent one. I suggest you stop doing so publicly, as if there's ever an incident, the DA will be looking at a history of what you've said when determining your intent.

We armed citizens are investigated and electronically fingerprinted before we are issued a license. And no, a DA can't use a blog to determine anything. All the DA does is determine if the law was followed or not in a shooting. It doesn't matter what I say, it matters what I did and what an investigation concludes.

And I don't see anywhere in any of my posts where I threatened one member here. I'm not a violent person just because I'm armed in public. The government has determined the same thing. I have a CCW, a CDL, and even a TSA certification. I've been checked out by every government agency in the book.

You understand how you can't pass off your cult nonsense to anyone outside of your cult, right?

Probably not. You're simply too deeply embedded in your cult's anti-reality bubble, and the real world can't penetrate. You actually believe all the cult dogma that you spout.

Without a doubt I believe it. Capitalism is why. Don't you think that if there was a product that everybody wanted, the private sector would have been involved long before government?

 

[mamooth]

Yes you do see that. Conservatives side with good and liberals always side with evil.

Nice religion you got there.

Alas, discussion with religious fanatics is pointless.

 

[thereisnospoon]

And in using your illustration, tell me how is this solar farm supposed to get me to work? How is supposed to power large vehicles such as trains, ships and trucks to get goods to market?
.
Have at it.

Biodiesel. Trains running on electric, generated by solar thermal hybrid power plants, or diesel generators on board. You're aware of the fact that they're growing an algae that can be cut into existing diesel gotten from petroleum? The more they progress with that technology, the less we're going to have to rely on petroleum for diesel.

Between solar thermal hybrid turbines, geothermal turbines and biodiesel, we've got it sewn up in the bag. Keep your damn profits. We just want a cleaner earth and less bullshit in the Middle East.

I am aware of many theories and experiments. Most of the developing technology is decades off from viability

 

[JoeB131]

Right Cleetus, it's what we have been telling you on the left for years: the earth, climate and temperature do change. That's the way God made this place.

1) There is no God.
2) The changes of the last few decades is more radical than anything we've seen before.

The climate has been changing since he put the earth here, and it will continue to change long after we are gone. How many factories and SUV"s did we have at the beginning of the ice age meltdown?

Okay, Dun, der, Cleetus, the ice age meltdown happened over a period of thousands of years, not mere decades. In short, nature had a change to adapt to the changes through the process of natural selection.

Energy is power, and the more power you give the government, the more they will abuse it as history shows. But you on the left believe that people are too stupid to know what's good for them. Government should make all your decisions for you.

Let's see now, you are terrified of the power being in the hands of a government that stands for election every four years, but you have no problem with it being in the hands of unelected rich people who run big corporations?

Once again, everyone- Battered Wife Conservatism fully on display.

 

[JoeB131]

The bottom line is that liberals despise a free society. A mobile society is just that. The proof of this is in the left wing agenda. Liberals despise the concept of suburbs, single family homes, automobiles and private property. Left wingers believe we should all be crammed into urban centers and left to fend for ourselves while they the ruling elite class get to live in far flung gated communities complete with private armed security teams and attack dogs.
A reminder of this

How come every time you whackadoodles talk about "Freedom", it usually means the ability of people with money to abuse those of us with less money?

I'm not sure where liberals came out against the "Single Family Home", ever? In fact, home ownership has always been something that the government has promoted, through the FHA, Veteran's Adminstration and all that other "Socialist" nonsense you guys just, hate, hate, hate.

 

[JoeB131]

My vision of a liberal elitist is a person who alone charters a 10 passenger private jet to fly to a conference on alternative energy.
Or we can look at the biggest energy hypocrite of all. Al Gore. He spouts off about global warming cursing use of fossil fuels. Meanwhile he resides in a home that consumes the equivalent of 20 conventional homes.

Yes, keep playing the Al Gore card. "That dang, der gummit ain't gonna make me buy a fuel efficient car, if Al Gore done got him a private jet."

Okay, Cleetus, I hate to break this to you... Al Gore's jet by itself does't have that much of an impact. He isn't flying it every single day. Millions of gas hog SUV's do.

 

[JoeB131]

Myth. Clean energy. It doesn't exist.

The oil companies told you so, right?