Why doesn't meat help meat eaters be healthy?

[Woodznutz]

CarlinAnnArbor,

What's funny about Genesis 18?

 

[buttercup]

Non sequitur.

The first animal death occurred in the Garden.

We went over this before. You have a habit of rehashing things that have already been addressed and refuted. Nowhere in the text in Genesis 3 does it say that God killed an animal. Again, you are adding to the text.

And again, even if that were true, which I'm not saying that it is, but even if that is what happened, God is the ONLY one who has the authority to take any life as He sees fit. So, just as pro-aborts sometimes try to use God as a justification for abortion, you are doing the same thing, but that is not a justification for you needlessly killing innocent beings just to satisfy your carnal desires.

 

[Woodznutz]

We went over this before. You have a habit of rehashing things that have already been addressed and refuted. Nowhere in the text in Genesis 3 does it say that God killed an animal. Again, you are adding to the text.

And again, even if that were true, which I'm not saying that it is, but even if that is what happened, God is the ONLY one who has the authority to take any life as He sees fit. So, just as pro-aborts sometimes try to use God as a justification for abortion, you are doing the same thing, but that is not a justification for you needlessly killing innocent beings just to satisfy your carnal desires.

God killed the lamb in the Garden, then commanded animal sacrifices on a grand scale up to and including the time of Jesus. Why is this so difficult to accept?

 

[buttercup]

God killed the lamb in the Garden, then commanded animal sacrifices on a grand scale up to and including the time of Jesus. Why is this so difficult to accept?

Do you read posts? It does not say that. It simply does not say that in the text.

And I really hate having to repeat things with you 10 times, but again, since you are not God, that is not a justification for you NEEDLESSLY killing innocent animals for your own selfish reasons.

As for animal sacrifices, I was going to reply to your post last night, but since you brought it up again…

Animal sacrifice is in NO way shape or form a justification for needlessly killing animals in this day and age. God never even wanted animal sacrifice in the first place, the practice was NOT God's idea, it was something that was already occurring at that time in many places in the world. There is evidence that it originated in Egypt.

But because this is a fallen world, often God will 'meet us where we're at.' Assuming those scriptures are legit, one theory on this is that God enacted laws on sacrifice to deal with it in 2 steps. (Some of the following is going to be copy / pasted from a paper a friend of mine wrote on this topic but I have permission to use)


1. Step one was to get people to stop sacrificing to false gods.

At the time when Moses freed the Israelites from their Egyptian bondage, the worship practice of sacrificing animals to idols and to Egyptian gods was widespread and deeply ingrained in the minds of the Israelites living in Egypt.

In the words of first century church leader Clement of Rome:

“When meantime Moses, that faithful and wise steward, perceived that the vice of sacrificing to idols had been deeply ingrained into the Egyptians, and that the root of this evil could not be extracted from them, he allowed them indeed to sacrifice, but permitted it to be done only to God, that by any means he might cut off one half of the deeply ingrained evil, leaving the other half to be corrected by another, and at a future time”.​

In other words, worshiping God instead of idols and other gods was the first step toward true worship and the primary objective Moses was tasked with.


2. The second step was to worship God the way God desires to be worshiped instead of in the way humans conceived to worship idols and other gods. This second step was later brought about through Jesus when he offered a better offering to God and thereby completed the way to perfect worship of God.

As another author puts it: “Men were going to sacrifice animals, with or without the law of Moses, but God’s end goal was always to wean men off of such violence and bring them back to the original perfect state of love, compassion, and mercy.”

As I've stated to you numerous times, just because God allows bad things to happen in this fallen world does not mean it's what God wants us to embrace, God is always pointing us toward HIS perfect will, which is love, mercy, compassion, not violence.

Now IF the reason you brought up animal sacrifice was to try to claim God doesn't care about animals and likes killing and death, let's look at what GOD thinks about sacrifice, and what He REALLY wants:

Hosea 6:6

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.


Psalm 40:6

Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.


Psalm 51:16-17

For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart —
These, O God, You will not despise.


Proverbs 21:3

To do righteousness and justice
Is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.


Jeremiah 7:22-24

For I did not speak to your fathers or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’ Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.


1 Samuel 15:22

But Samuel replied:

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.


Isaiah 1:11-17

“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.

“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.

I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.

“When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?

Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.
When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.

“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,

Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.


Micah 6:8

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

 

[Woodznutz]

Do you read posts? It does not say that. It simply does not say that in the text.

It can legitimately be inferred. Animal skins didn't grow on the trees in the garden.

Repeating your objections over and over doesn't make them correct.

Once again, I suggest talking with your pastor about things you don't understand.

 

[buttercup]

It can legitimately be inferred.

Repeating your objections over and over doesn't make them correct.

Once again, I suggest talking with your pastor about things you don't understand.

Your projection is hilarious to me. You're the one who clearly doesn't understand the most basic fundamental aspects of God's character: love, mercy, peace, justice.... as opposed to needless violence, selfishness, and callous disregard for other sentient beings created and loved by God.

PS: I edited my previous post after you replied, to address the animal sacrifice thing. Please read those verses posted.

 

[Woodznutz]

buttercup,
What's so funny about talking to your pastor?

 

[Woodznutz]

Your projection is hilarious to me. You're the one who clearly doesn't understand the most basic fundamental aspects of God's character: love, mercy, peace, justice.... as opposed to needless violence, selfishness, and callous disregard for other sentient beings created and loved by God.

PS: I edited my previous post after you replied, to address the animal sacrifice thing. Please read those verses posted.

Nice try. God is lamenting the continuous evil of man. He didn't suspend animal sacrifices. He was just sick of the whole business because Israel didn't get the message. Animal sacrifice for sin wasn't done away with until he sent the Holy Spirit to enable us to truly repent.

Matthew 10, Jesus acknowledging animal sacrifices and the relative value of them.

29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows."

Or any other sacrificial animal.

 

[buttercup]

buttercup,
What's so funny about talking to your pastor?

Nearly everything you post on this topic is funny to me. It's funny (but also very sad) that you really think that violence, needless killing and selfishness is what God wants from us, instead of mercy, peace and selfless love..... which is the exact opposite of what the Bible says, from cover to cover.

Also, I don't look to pastors as my end-all-be-all guide for biblical matters. In modern Christianity, most pastors are wrong about a number of things. Pastors are fallible. God is not. I'll stick with what GOD has shown me, and God has clearly shown me that if there's no need to eat animals, then my own selfish desires are not a justification to continue to pay for the exploitation, abuse and murder of HIS beloved animals that He created to live with us in peace and harmony.

 

[Woodznutz]

Nearly everything you post on this topic is funny to me. It's funny (but also very sad) that you really think that violence, needless killing and selfishness is what God wants from us, instead of mercy, peace and selfless love..... which is the exact opposite of what the Bible says, from cover to cover.

So, you don't actually have a pastor? Someone without a shepherd is a lost sheep. I'm showing you love by trying to help you understand God's word.

 

[Woodznutz]

Nearly everything you post on this topic is funny to me. It's funny (but also very sad) that you really think that violence, needless killing and selfishness is what God wants from us, instead of mercy, peace and selfless love..... which is the exact opposite of what the Bible says, from cover to cover.

Also, I don't look to pastors as my end-all-be-all guide for biblical matters. In modern Christianity, most pastors are wrong about a number of things. Pastors are fallible. God is not. I'll stick with what GOD has shown me, and God has clearly shown me that if there's no need to eat animals, then my own selfish desires are not a justification to continue to pay for the exploitation, abuse and murder of HIS beloved animals that He created to live with us in peace and harmony.

We can eliminate lots of things in our lives that are unneeded. Eating meat would be among the last to be given up. Why don't you focus on those other things? Drugs, crime, divorce, illegitimacy, obesity, sloth, ignorance, etc. would be a good place to start. Self-examination as well.

Today is "Labor Day". Millions of Christians will suspend productive activities in honor of working people. How ironic. Where in the Bible is such a holiday commanded? Why honor a 'worldly' holiday, which puts much of the nation even farther behind economically and productively?

God says six days shall you labor, which is the formula for financial success of the individual and the economic success of the nation. Why don't you address that little factoid?

I'll be working today, by the way.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Do you read posts? It does not say that. It simply does not say that in the text.

And I really hate having to repeat things with you 10 times, but again, since you are not God, that is not a justification for you NEEDLESSLY killing innocent animals for your own selfish reasons.

As for animal sacrifices, I was going to reply to your post last night, but since you brought it up again…

Animal sacrifice is in NO way shape or form a justification for needlessly killing animals in this day and age. God never even wanted animal sacrifice in the first place, the practice was NOT God's idea, it was something that was already occurring at that time in many places in the world. There is evidence that it originated in Egypt.

But because this is a fallen world, often God will 'meet us where we're at.' Assuming those scriptures are legit, one theory on this is that God enacted laws on sacrifice to deal with it in 2 steps. (Some of the following is going to be copy / pasted from a paper a friend of mine wrote on this topic but I have permission to use)


1. Step one was to get people to stop sacrificing to false gods.

At the time when Moses freed the Israelites from their Egyptian bondage, the worship practice of sacrificing animals to idols and to Egyptian gods was widespread and deeply ingrained in the minds of the Israelites living in Egypt.

In the words of first century church leader Clement of Rome:

“When meantime Moses, that faithful and wise steward, perceived that the vice of sacrificing to idols had been deeply ingrained into the Egyptians, and that the root of this evil could not be extracted from them, he allowed them indeed to sacrifice, but permitted it to be done only to God, that by any means he might cut off one half of the deeply ingrained evil, leaving the other half to be corrected by another, and at a future time”.​

In other words, worshiping God instead of idols and other gods was the first step toward true worship and the primary objective Moses was tasked with.


2. The second step was to worship God the way God desires to be worshiped instead of in the way humans conceived to worship idols and other gods. This second step was later brought about through Jesus when he offered a better offering to God and thereby completed the way to perfect worship of God.

As another author puts it: “Men were going to sacrifice animals, with or without the law of Moses, but God’s end goal was always to wean men off of such violence and bring them back to the original perfect state of love, compassion, and mercy.”

As I've stated to you numerous times, just because God allows bad things to happen in this fallen world does not mean it's what God wants us to embrace, God is always pointing us toward HIS perfect will, which is love, mercy, compassion, not violence.

Now IF the reason you brought up animal sacrifice was to try to claim God doesn't care about animals and likes killing and death, let's look at what GOD thinks about sacrifice, and what He REALLY wants:

Hosea 6:6

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.


Psalm 40:6

Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.


Psalm 51:16-17

For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart —
These, O God, You will not despise.


Proverbs 21:3

To do righteousness and justice
Is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.


Jeremiah 7:22-24

For I did not speak to your fathers or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’ Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.


1 Samuel 15:22

But Samuel replied:

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.


Isaiah 1:11-17

“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.

“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.

I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.

“When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?

Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.
When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.

“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,

Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.


Micah 6:8

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

I really appreciate the time and effort you put in to TRY to reason with stubborn and calloused people.

I wish I had your patience.

 

[buttercup]

We can eliminate lots of things in our lives that are unneeded. Eating meat would be among the last to be given up. Why don't you focus on those other things? Drugs would be a good place to start.

Actually, since literally billions of animals are killed each year, and since there is an astronomical amount of suffering that takes place every day because of man's selfish penchant for meat eating (not to mention numerous other problems it causes) IYAM giving up meat would be much higher on that list.

And that reminds me of a Leo Tolstoy quote:

"The vegetarian movement ought to fill with gladness the souls of those who have at heart the realization of God's kingdom upon earth, not because vegetarianism itself is such an important step towards the realization of this kingdom (all real steps are equally important or unimportant), but because it serves as a criterion by which we know that the pursuit of moral perfection on the part of man is genuine and sincere."​

And I hate drugs but there are already enough people who speak about that, and very few Christians who speak up for the animals, so....

 

[justoffal]

I already KNOW that very few, if any, will sit through a 16 minute video on plant protein, but making sure the TRUTH available is all I can do.

No, you DON'T have to be a nutritionist to be a healthy vegetarian/vegan. In fact vegans/vegetarians are on average, much healthier. That is a FACT

"ALL plant foods contalin ALL 9 ESSENTIAL AMINO ACIDS. PERIOD."

Very informative

 

[buttercup]

I really appreciate the time and effort you put in to TRY to reason with stubborn and calloused people.

I wish I had your patience.

Thank you. I don't know if it's patience, as much as my own stubbornness, haha. But mostly I just hate to see people misled or when Christians misrepresent the nature and character of God.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

 

[Blues Man]

Not my point. Nutritional yeast is not a 'natural' source of B12 as suggested.

Again so what?

 

[Blues Man]

Apps that help a person find needed nutrients. Designed by people who have that knowledge.

Yeah. A free one is put out by a medical doctor who specializes in nutrition.

Funny how you post on the internet but you can't seem to use it to actually learn anything.

 

[Blues Man]

I have no control over how animals are killed or the effect on the workers. I think that in order to change things for the better requires a change in human nature.

By not supporting the industry you exert control

 

[justoffal]

Very informative

I'm not one to sit on my butt.
After watching the video
I poured half a can of kidney beans into one cup of old fashioned oats cover them with almond milk added two scoops of whey protein powder and a handful of frozen berries. Buzz them all up in the Vitamix.... It was delicious.