Why I don't believe in God

[Mudda]

I back my stuff up with a link to scientists. You linked to losers. You make the call.

You've not backed a goddamn thing up. You posted one link to an NYU study that found European Neanderthals practiced crude spiritual rituals. How does THAT refute human spirituality in ANY way?

I presented the most profound archaeological finding in human history and you want to pretend it isn't real or something. Just a pile-o-bones! Then you want to smugly act like I am somehow obligated to change your made up mind on something you have no intention of ever changing it over. And even MORE outrageous, trying to claim that I've not made my case unless I change your mind!

Fuck you... I don't need to change your mind. If you want to believe in myths and fairy tales, that's up to you. If you want to reject and refuse science, that's your business. You're not going to sit here and lie through your shit-stained teeth about it though, I'm going to continue to call you out on that. You can either present some valid evidence from science to back up your bullshit or it remains bullshit.

You presented a wiki page. Nothing more. If you had more, you'd be falling all over yourself to post it and laugh in my face. Too bad you have nothing.

Yes, I gave you the Wikipedia page for Lake Mungo so that you can go there and review the many sources available online regarding the various findings at the several sites. I also told you that I have no intention of playing the "gimme a link" game with you because I've been to that rodeo. I already know how that works... you destroy the source and reject the evidence. No sooner than I posted the Wiki link, that's exactly what you attempted to do. And you're still trying to.

I don't need to laugh in your face. You're making a fool out of yourself with no help from me. You somehow think that I am obligated to change your mind about something here. I don't have to change your mind. I already know and admit that it's not possible to change your mind. So if that's the point you're trying to prove, you win!

I'd have no problem changing my mind if you come up with real science to back your claims. You have nothing. Wiki isn't proof. If what Wiki posts is true, you'd have no problem finding a real source, but I couldn't find any, and neither can you.

I didn't say Wiki was proof of anything. Wiki is a resource that everyone is familiar with. The Lake Mungo Wiki page links to all kinds of assorted studies and sites you can explore on your own. There are numerous research papers on the findings there. I don't have time to sit here and do online research for a day to give you links that you're going to immediately dismiss and find fault with or pick apart... and that's exactly what you will do because that's what you do. It's pointless to me and I'm not going to waste my time. You're a lying piece of shit, you are NEVER going to change your mind, it's made up.

Jim Bowler is probably the most notable archaeologist who has studies the remains and he has published several papers on it. Perhaps you can Google him if you're having trouble?

Here are a few more links:
Mungo Archaeological Digs | The Foundation for National Parks and Wildlife
Lake Mungo (Australia)
Ancient bones found at Lake Mungo - 80 Days That Changed Our Lives - ABC Archives

As I said, there are dozens of links that come up when I Google Lake Mungo. I can't imagine what's the problem with your browser. I'm not experiencing any problems whatsoever, but as I said, this is one of the most prolific discoveries in human history. If you want to continue denying it is science or a scientific discovery, that's up to you. I am done with this argument. I won, you lost.

Ok, first links says he was ritually cremated some 42,000 years ago. Ok, link looks authentic, so that wasn't so hard for you to do, was it?
Third link says, "Mungo Lady is the oldest known cremation in the world, giving some idea of just how long spiritual beliefs have characterised our species. " (even though nobody explains why that's the conclusion of a cremation, but whatever, we move on...)
Ok, so the earliest ritual ceremony around a death is 42,000 years ago. So remind me, how does this prove spirituality is inherent in humans and not something like stone tools that we simply picked up along the way? And also, what about before that, man wasn't spiritual for the previous millions of years?

 

[Hollie]

I back my stuff up with a link to scientists. You linked to losers. You make the call.

You've not backed a goddamn thing up. You posted one link to an NYU study that found European Neanderthals practiced crude spiritual rituals. How does THAT refute human spirituality in ANY way?

I presented the most profound archaeological finding in human history and you want to pretend it isn't real or something. Just a pile-o-bones! Then you want to smugly act like I am somehow obligated to change your made up mind on something you have no intention of ever changing it over. And even MORE outrageous, trying to claim that I've not made my case unless I change your mind!

Fuck you... I don't need to change your mind. If you want to believe in myths and fairy tales, that's up to you. If you want to reject and refuse science, that's your business. You're not going to sit here and lie through your shit-stained teeth about it though, I'm going to continue to call you out on that. You can either present some valid evidence from science to back up your bullshit or it remains bullshit.

"The most profound archaeological finding in human history"?

Really, bossy?

That's odd because you're the only one making that claim.

 

[Boss]

I back my stuff up with a link to scientists. You linked to losers. You make the call.

You've not backed a goddamn thing up. You posted one link to an NYU study that found European Neanderthals practiced crude spiritual rituals. How does THAT refute human spirituality in ANY way?

I presented the most profound archaeological finding in human history and you want to pretend it isn't real or something. Just a pile-o-bones! Then you want to smugly act like I am somehow obligated to change your made up mind on something you have no intention of ever changing it over. And even MORE outrageous, trying to claim that I've not made my case unless I change your mind!

Fuck you... I don't need to change your mind. If you want to believe in myths and fairy tales, that's up to you. If you want to reject and refuse science, that's your business. You're not going to sit here and lie through your shit-stained teeth about it though, I'm going to continue to call you out on that. You can either present some valid evidence from science to back up your bullshit or it remains bullshit.

"The most profound archaeological finding in human history"?

Really, bossy?

That's odd because you're the only one making that claim.

List the ones that are more profound.

 

[Boss]

You've not backed a goddamn thing up. You posted one link to an NYU study that found European Neanderthals practiced crude spiritual rituals. How does THAT refute human spirituality in ANY way?

I presented the most profound archaeological finding in human history and you want to pretend it isn't real or something. Just a pile-o-bones! Then you want to smugly act like I am somehow obligated to change your made up mind on something you have no intention of ever changing it over. And even MORE outrageous, trying to claim that I've not made my case unless I change your mind!

Fuck you... I don't need to change your mind. If you want to believe in myths and fairy tales, that's up to you. If you want to reject and refuse science, that's your business. You're not going to sit here and lie through your shit-stained teeth about it though, I'm going to continue to call you out on that. You can either present some valid evidence from science to back up your bullshit or it remains bullshit.

You presented a wiki page. Nothing more. If you had more, you'd be falling all over yourself to post it and laugh in my face. Too bad you have nothing.

Yes, I gave you the Wikipedia page for Lake Mungo so that you can go there and review the many sources available online regarding the various findings at the several sites. I also told you that I have no intention of playing the "gimme a link" game with you because I've been to that rodeo. I already know how that works... you destroy the source and reject the evidence. No sooner than I posted the Wiki link, that's exactly what you attempted to do. And you're still trying to.

I don't need to laugh in your face. You're making a fool out of yourself with no help from me. You somehow think that I am obligated to change your mind about something here. I don't have to change your mind. I already know and admit that it's not possible to change your mind. So if that's the point you're trying to prove, you win!

I'd have no problem changing my mind if you come up with real science to back your claims. You have nothing. Wiki isn't proof. If what Wiki posts is true, you'd have no problem finding a real source, but I couldn't find any, and neither can you.

I didn't say Wiki was proof of anything. Wiki is a resource that everyone is familiar with. The Lake Mungo Wiki page links to all kinds of assorted studies and sites you can explore on your own. There are numerous research papers on the findings there. I don't have time to sit here and do online research for a day to give you links that you're going to immediately dismiss and find fault with or pick apart... and that's exactly what you will do because that's what you do. It's pointless to me and I'm not going to waste my time. You're a lying piece of shit, you are NEVER going to change your mind, it's made up.

Jim Bowler is probably the most notable archaeologist who has studies the remains and he has published several papers on it. Perhaps you can Google him if you're having trouble?

Here are a few more links:
Mungo Archaeological Digs | The Foundation for National Parks and Wildlife
Lake Mungo (Australia)
Ancient bones found at Lake Mungo - 80 Days That Changed Our Lives - ABC Archives

As I said, there are dozens of links that come up when I Google Lake Mungo. I can't imagine what's the problem with your browser. I'm not experiencing any problems whatsoever, but as I said, this is one of the most prolific discoveries in human history. If you want to continue denying it is science or a scientific discovery, that's up to you. I am done with this argument. I won, you lost.

Ok, first links says he was ritually cremated some 42,000 years ago. Ok, link looks authentic, so that wasn't so hard for you to do, was it?
Third link says, "Mungo Lady is the oldest known cremation in the world, giving some idea of just how long spiritual beliefs have characterised our species. " (even though nobody explains why that's the conclusion of a cremation, but whatever, we move on...)
Ok, so the earliest ritual ceremony around a death is 42,000 years ago. So remind me, how does this prove spirituality is inherent in humans and not something like stone tools that we simply picked up along the way? And also, what about before that, man wasn't spiritual for the previous millions of years?

Okay... so you are doing exactly what I said you would do.

This argument began with me saying, the oldest bones we've ever unearthed show signs of human spirituality. This is the oldest settlement we've ever found and there is human spirituality. Previously, the oldest civilizations we'd found were in Africa and we also found signs of ritual ceremony. Of course we know later civilizations in Egypt were certainly spiritual.

Now you ask how do we know it wasn't like stone tools. something we "picked up"? Well. we don't know this because we only have what we've unearthed. I suspect, before man became civilized, there probably wasn't spirituality. However, there are many prehistoric cave paintings and such to suggest that even the earliest Cro-Magnon cave men had some spiritual beliefs. I mean, if you subscribe to the whole "common ancestor" thing, I doubt the first monkey-human to pop out just said.. hmm.. got this dang urge to be spiritual for some reason! I wasn't there, we don't have evidence, so I don't know.

My only claim has been that spirituality has been inherent to mankind for as long as humans have been civilized and that's what the evidence shows. I can't tell you when it started which is the problem I have with those who claim it started when man invented it to [whatever]. That's an opinion and not a supported fact. We can say that about RELIGION but not spirituality. We know about when organized religious beliefs began, we can trace the origins. If human spirituality were invented, like stone tools and religion, we should find evidence of when it was invented and we don't. It has existed as long as man has been civilized. How it started, we don't know. It remains a fundamental characteristic and our most defining attribute as a species.

Back to the Lake Mungo findings... It's not just that we find evidence of cremation burial, it's the red ocher they used which is the key. This is an aesthetic material which was not available locally. They didn't just go out and bust open a rock and think... hmm, that's pretty, let me decorate this dead body with it. The red ocher had to be brought there from hundreds of miles away. That tells me it was an important thing and a special occasion when it was used. Truly, a ritualistic ceremony. So what practical or pragmatic reason would humans have to perform ritual ceremonies for the dead? It can only be spirituality.

So Boss, how do you think it all started? My opinion is, at some point, spiritual nature revealed itself to man and man became spiritually connected. Perhaps this is what enabled us to overcome fear of fire or create the first tools? I believe it stuck for the same reason it sticks around today... humans need to believe in something greater than self. It's our driving force... where we derive inspiration. Without it, we'd still be living in the trees picking our asses. That's my opinion.

 

[Mudda]

You presented a wiki page. Nothing more. If you had more, you'd be falling all over yourself to post it and laugh in my face. Too bad you have nothing.

Yes, I gave you the Wikipedia page for Lake Mungo so that you can go there and review the many sources available online regarding the various findings at the several sites. I also told you that I have no intention of playing the "gimme a link" game with you because I've been to that rodeo. I already know how that works... you destroy the source and reject the evidence. No sooner than I posted the Wiki link, that's exactly what you attempted to do. And you're still trying to.

I don't need to laugh in your face. You're making a fool out of yourself with no help from me. You somehow think that I am obligated to change your mind about something here. I don't have to change your mind. I already know and admit that it's not possible to change your mind. So if that's the point you're trying to prove, you win!

I'd have no problem changing my mind if you come up with real science to back your claims. You have nothing. Wiki isn't proof. If what Wiki posts is true, you'd have no problem finding a real source, but I couldn't find any, and neither can you.

I didn't say Wiki was proof of anything. Wiki is a resource that everyone is familiar with. The Lake Mungo Wiki page links to all kinds of assorted studies and sites you can explore on your own. There are numerous research papers on the findings there. I don't have time to sit here and do online research for a day to give you links that you're going to immediately dismiss and find fault with or pick apart... and that's exactly what you will do because that's what you do. It's pointless to me and I'm not going to waste my time. You're a lying piece of shit, you are NEVER going to change your mind, it's made up.

Jim Bowler is probably the most notable archaeologist who has studies the remains and he has published several papers on it. Perhaps you can Google him if you're having trouble?

Here are a few more links:
Mungo Archaeological Digs | The Foundation for National Parks and Wildlife
Lake Mungo (Australia)
Ancient bones found at Lake Mungo - 80 Days That Changed Our Lives - ABC Archives

As I said, there are dozens of links that come up when I Google Lake Mungo. I can't imagine what's the problem with your browser. I'm not experiencing any problems whatsoever, but as I said, this is one of the most prolific discoveries in human history. If you want to continue denying it is science or a scientific discovery, that's up to you. I am done with this argument. I won, you lost.

Ok, first links says he was ritually cremated some 42,000 years ago. Ok, link looks authentic, so that wasn't so hard for you to do, was it?
Third link says, "Mungo Lady is the oldest known cremation in the world, giving some idea of just how long spiritual beliefs have characterised our species. " (even though nobody explains why that's the conclusion of a cremation, but whatever, we move on...)
Ok, so the earliest ritual ceremony around a death is 42,000 years ago. So remind me, how does this prove spirituality is inherent in humans and not something like stone tools that we simply picked up along the way? And also, what about before that, man wasn't spiritual for the previous millions of years?

Okay... so you are doing exactly what I said you would do.

This argument began with me saying, the oldest bones we've ever unearthed show signs of human spirituality. This is the oldest settlement we've ever found and there is human spirituality. Previously, the oldest civilizations we'd found were in Africa and we also found signs of ritual ceremony. Of course we know later civilizations in Egypt were certainly spiritual.

Now you ask how do we know it wasn't like stone tools. something we "picked up"? Well. we don't know this because we only have what we've unearthed. I suspect, before man became civilized, there probably wasn't spirituality. However, there are many prehistoric cave paintings and such to suggest that even the earliest Cro-Magnon cave men had some spiritual beliefs. I mean, if you subscribe to the whole "common ancestor" thing, I doubt the first monkey-human to pop out just said.. hmm.. got this dang urge to be spiritual for some reason! I wasn't there, we don't have evidence, so I don't know.

My only claim has been that spirituality has been inherent to mankind for as long as humans have been civilized and that's what the evidence shows. I can't tell you when it started which is the problem I have with those who claim it started when man invented it to [whatever]. That's an opinion and not a supported fact. We can say that about RELIGION but not spirituality. We know about when organized religious beliefs began, we can trace the origins. If human spirituality were invented, like stone tools and religion, we should find evidence of when it was invented and we don't. It has existed as long as man has been civilized. How it started, we don't know. It remains a fundamental characteristic and our most defining attribute as a species.

Back to the Lake Mungo findings... It's not just that we find evidence of cremation burial, it's the red ocher they used which is the key. This is an aesthetic material which was not available locally. They didn't just go out and bust open a rock and think... hmm, that's pretty, let me decorate this dead body with it. The red ocher had to be brought there from hundreds of miles away. That tells me it was an important thing and a special occasion when it was used. Truly, a ritualistic ceremony. So what practical or pragmatic reason would humans have to perform ritual ceremonies for the dead? It can only be spirituality.

So Boss, how do you think it all started? My opinion is, at some point, spiritual nature revealed itself to man and man became spiritually connected. Perhaps this is what enabled us to overcome fear of fire or create the first tools? I believe it stuck for the same reason it sticks around today... humans need to believe in something greater than self. It's our driving force... where we derive inspiration. Without it, we'd still be living in the trees picking our asses. That's my opinion.

Ahh, moving the goalposts. Now it's inherent since man was civilized. So spirituality is something we've learned along the way, making it NOT inherent. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Hollie]

I back my stuff up with a link to scientists. You linked to losers. You make the call.

You've not backed a goddamn thing up. You posted one link to an NYU study that found European Neanderthals practiced crude spiritual rituals. How does THAT refute human spirituality in ANY way?

I presented the most profound archaeological finding in human history and you want to pretend it isn't real or something. Just a pile-o-bones! Then you want to smugly act like I am somehow obligated to change your made up mind on something you have no intention of ever changing it over. And even MORE outrageous, trying to claim that I've not made my case unless I change your mind!

Fuck you... I don't need to change your mind. If you want to believe in myths and fairy tales, that's up to you. If you want to reject and refuse science, that's your business. You're not going to sit here and lie through your shit-stained teeth about it though, I'm going to continue to call you out on that. You can either present some valid evidence from science to back up your bullshit or it remains bullshit.

"The most profound archaeological finding in human history"?

Really, bossy?

That's odd because you're the only one making that claim.

List the ones that are more profound.

It's your claim. What is "most profound" about the finding?

 

[Hollie]

You presented a wiki page. Nothing more. If you had more, you'd be falling all over yourself to post it and laugh in my face. Too bad you have nothing.

Yes, I gave you the Wikipedia page for Lake Mungo so that you can go there and review the many sources available online regarding the various findings at the several sites. I also told you that I have no intention of playing the "gimme a link" game with you because I've been to that rodeo. I already know how that works... you destroy the source and reject the evidence. No sooner than I posted the Wiki link, that's exactly what you attempted to do. And you're still trying to.

I don't need to laugh in your face. You're making a fool out of yourself with no help from me. You somehow think that I am obligated to change your mind about something here. I don't have to change your mind. I already know and admit that it's not possible to change your mind. So if that's the point you're trying to prove, you win!

I'd have no problem changing my mind if you come up with real science to back your claims. You have nothing. Wiki isn't proof. If what Wiki posts is true, you'd have no problem finding a real source, but I couldn't find any, and neither can you.

I didn't say Wiki was proof of anything. Wiki is a resource that everyone is familiar with. The Lake Mungo Wiki page links to all kinds of assorted studies and sites you can explore on your own. There are numerous research papers on the findings there. I don't have time to sit here and do online research for a day to give you links that you're going to immediately dismiss and find fault with or pick apart... and that's exactly what you will do because that's what you do. It's pointless to me and I'm not going to waste my time. You're a lying piece of shit, you are NEVER going to change your mind, it's made up.

Jim Bowler is probably the most notable archaeologist who has studies the remains and he has published several papers on it. Perhaps you can Google him if you're having trouble?

Here are a few more links:
Mungo Archaeological Digs | The Foundation for National Parks and Wildlife
Lake Mungo (Australia)
Ancient bones found at Lake Mungo - 80 Days That Changed Our Lives - ABC Archives

As I said, there are dozens of links that come up when I Google Lake Mungo. I can't imagine what's the problem with your browser. I'm not experiencing any problems whatsoever, but as I said, this is one of the most prolific discoveries in human history. If you want to continue denying it is science or a scientific discovery, that's up to you. I am done with this argument. I won, you lost.

Ok, first links says he was ritually cremated some 42,000 years ago. Ok, link looks authentic, so that wasn't so hard for you to do, was it?
Third link says, "Mungo Lady is the oldest known cremation in the world, giving some idea of just how long spiritual beliefs have characterised our species. " (even though nobody explains why that's the conclusion of a cremation, but whatever, we move on...)
Ok, so the earliest ritual ceremony around a death is 42,000 years ago. So remind me, how does this prove spirituality is inherent in humans and not something like stone tools that we simply picked up along the way? And also, what about before that, man wasn't spiritual for the previous millions of years?

Okay... so you are doing exactly what I said you would do.

This argument began with me saying, the oldest bones we've ever unearthed show signs of human spirituality. This is the oldest settlement we've ever found and there is human spirituality. Previously, the oldest civilizations we'd found were in Africa and we also found signs of ritual ceremony. Of course we know later civilizations in Egypt were certainly spiritual.

Now you ask how do we know it wasn't like stone tools. something we "picked up"? Well. we don't know this because we only have what we've unearthed. I suspect, before man became civilized, there probably wasn't spirituality. However, there are many prehistoric cave paintings and such to suggest that even the earliest Cro-Magnon cave men had some spiritual beliefs. I mean, if you subscribe to the whole "common ancestor" thing, I doubt the first monkey-human to pop out just said.. hmm.. got this dang urge to be spiritual for some reason! I wasn't there, we don't have evidence, so I don't know.

My only claim has been that spirituality has been inherent to mankind for as long as humans have been civilized and that's what the evidence shows. I can't tell you when it started which is the problem I have with those who claim it started when man invented it to [whatever]. That's an opinion and not a supported fact. We can say that about RELIGION but not spirituality. We know about when organized religious beliefs began, we can trace the origins. If human spirituality were invented, like stone tools and religion, we should find evidence of when it was invented and we don't. It has existed as long as man has been civilized. How it started, we don't know. It remains a fundamental characteristic and our most defining attribute as a species.

Back to the Lake Mungo findings... It's not just that we find evidence of cremation burial, it's the red ocher they used which is the key. This is an aesthetic material which was not available locally. They didn't just go out and bust open a rock and think... hmm, that's pretty, let me decorate this dead body with it. The red ocher had to be brought there from hundreds of miles away. That tells me it was an important thing and a special occasion when it was used. Truly, a ritualistic ceremony. So what practical or pragmatic reason would humans have to perform ritual ceremonies for the dead? It can only be spirituality.

So Boss, how do you think it all started? My opinion is, at some point, spiritual nature revealed itself to man and man became spiritually connected. Perhaps this is what enabled us to overcome fear of fire or create the first tools? I believe it stuck for the same reason it sticks around today... humans need to believe in something greater than self. It's our driving force... where we derive inspiration. Without it, we'd still be living in the trees picking our asses. That's my opinion.

I'm afraid you're wrong now as you were before, bossy.

Nothing in the oldest human fossil discovery shows signs of your spirit realms.


Discovery of Oldest Human Fossil Fills Evolutionary Gap - History in the Headlines


You continue to confuse ancient fears and superstitions (which we still call "religion"), with your need to impose your gawds.

 

[Boss]

Yes, I gave you the Wikipedia page for Lake Mungo so that you can go there and review the many sources available online regarding the various findings at the several sites. I also told you that I have no intention of playing the "gimme a link" game with you because I've been to that rodeo. I already know how that works... you destroy the source and reject the evidence. No sooner than I posted the Wiki link, that's exactly what you attempted to do. And you're still trying to.

I don't need to laugh in your face. You're making a fool out of yourself with no help from me. You somehow think that I am obligated to change your mind about something here. I don't have to change your mind. I already know and admit that it's not possible to change your mind. So if that's the point you're trying to prove, you win!

I'd have no problem changing my mind if you come up with real science to back your claims. You have nothing. Wiki isn't proof. If what Wiki posts is true, you'd have no problem finding a real source, but I couldn't find any, and neither can you.

I didn't say Wiki was proof of anything. Wiki is a resource that everyone is familiar with. The Lake Mungo Wiki page links to all kinds of assorted studies and sites you can explore on your own. There are numerous research papers on the findings there. I don't have time to sit here and do online research for a day to give you links that you're going to immediately dismiss and find fault with or pick apart... and that's exactly what you will do because that's what you do. It's pointless to me and I'm not going to waste my time. You're a lying piece of shit, you are NEVER going to change your mind, it's made up.

Jim Bowler is probably the most notable archaeologist who has studies the remains and he has published several papers on it. Perhaps you can Google him if you're having trouble?

Here are a few more links:
Mungo Archaeological Digs | The Foundation for National Parks and Wildlife
Lake Mungo (Australia)
Ancient bones found at Lake Mungo - 80 Days That Changed Our Lives - ABC Archives

As I said, there are dozens of links that come up when I Google Lake Mungo. I can't imagine what's the problem with your browser. I'm not experiencing any problems whatsoever, but as I said, this is one of the most prolific discoveries in human history. If you want to continue denying it is science or a scientific discovery, that's up to you. I am done with this argument. I won, you lost.

Ok, first links says he was ritually cremated some 42,000 years ago. Ok, link looks authentic, so that wasn't so hard for you to do, was it?
Third link says, "Mungo Lady is the oldest known cremation in the world, giving some idea of just how long spiritual beliefs have characterised our species. " (even though nobody explains why that's the conclusion of a cremation, but whatever, we move on...)
Ok, so the earliest ritual ceremony around a death is 42,000 years ago. So remind me, how does this prove spirituality is inherent in humans and not something like stone tools that we simply picked up along the way? And also, what about before that, man wasn't spiritual for the previous millions of years?

Okay... so you are doing exactly what I said you would do.

This argument began with me saying, the oldest bones we've ever unearthed show signs of human spirituality. This is the oldest settlement we've ever found and there is human spirituality. Previously, the oldest civilizations we'd found were in Africa and we also found signs of ritual ceremony. Of course we know later civilizations in Egypt were certainly spiritual.

Now you ask how do we know it wasn't like stone tools. something we "picked up"? Well. we don't know this because we only have what we've unearthed. I suspect, before man became civilized, there probably wasn't spirituality. However, there are many prehistoric cave paintings and such to suggest that even the earliest Cro-Magnon cave men had some spiritual beliefs. I mean, if you subscribe to the whole "common ancestor" thing, I doubt the first monkey-human to pop out just said.. hmm.. got this dang urge to be spiritual for some reason! I wasn't there, we don't have evidence, so I don't know.

My only claim has been that spirituality has been inherent to mankind for as long as humans have been civilized and that's what the evidence shows. I can't tell you when it started which is the problem I have with those who claim it started when man invented it to [whatever]. That's an opinion and not a supported fact. We can say that about RELIGION but not spirituality. We know about when organized religious beliefs began, we can trace the origins. If human spirituality were invented, like stone tools and religion, we should find evidence of when it was invented and we don't. It has existed as long as man has been civilized. How it started, we don't know. It remains a fundamental characteristic and our most defining attribute as a species.

Back to the Lake Mungo findings... It's not just that we find evidence of cremation burial, it's the red ocher they used which is the key. This is an aesthetic material which was not available locally. They didn't just go out and bust open a rock and think... hmm, that's pretty, let me decorate this dead body with it. The red ocher had to be brought there from hundreds of miles away. That tells me it was an important thing and a special occasion when it was used. Truly, a ritualistic ceremony. So what practical or pragmatic reason would humans have to perform ritual ceremonies for the dead? It can only be spirituality.

So Boss, how do you think it all started? My opinion is, at some point, spiritual nature revealed itself to man and man became spiritually connected. Perhaps this is what enabled us to overcome fear of fire or create the first tools? I believe it stuck for the same reason it sticks around today... humans need to believe in something greater than self. It's our driving force... where we derive inspiration. Without it, we'd still be living in the trees picking our asses. That's my opinion.

Ahh, moving the goalposts. Now it's inherent since man was civilized. So spirituality is something we've learned along the way, making it NOT inherent. Thanks for clearing that up.

No.. that's been my claim all along. Before we were civilized, I don't know if humans were spiritual or even if they were totally humans. We didn't "learn it along the way" and I didn't say that. I told you what my opinion was but I don't know for sure what happened. It IS an inherent trait that has been with humans as long as humans have been civilized creatures. Or at least, as best we can tell, that seems to be the case. There is no evidence of when humans "invented" it.

 

[Mudda]

I'd have no problem changing my mind if you come up with real science to back your claims. You have nothing. Wiki isn't proof. If what Wiki posts is true, you'd have no problem finding a real source, but I couldn't find any, and neither can you.

I didn't say Wiki was proof of anything. Wiki is a resource that everyone is familiar with. The Lake Mungo Wiki page links to all kinds of assorted studies and sites you can explore on your own. There are numerous research papers on the findings there. I don't have time to sit here and do online research for a day to give you links that you're going to immediately dismiss and find fault with or pick apart... and that's exactly what you will do because that's what you do. It's pointless to me and I'm not going to waste my time. You're a lying piece of shit, you are NEVER going to change your mind, it's made up.

Jim Bowler is probably the most notable archaeologist who has studies the remains and he has published several papers on it. Perhaps you can Google him if you're having trouble?

Here are a few more links:
Mungo Archaeological Digs | The Foundation for National Parks and Wildlife
Lake Mungo (Australia)
Ancient bones found at Lake Mungo - 80 Days That Changed Our Lives - ABC Archives

As I said, there are dozens of links that come up when I Google Lake Mungo. I can't imagine what's the problem with your browser. I'm not experiencing any problems whatsoever, but as I said, this is one of the most prolific discoveries in human history. If you want to continue denying it is science or a scientific discovery, that's up to you. I am done with this argument. I won, you lost.

Ok, first links says he was ritually cremated some 42,000 years ago. Ok, link looks authentic, so that wasn't so hard for you to do, was it?
Third link says, "Mungo Lady is the oldest known cremation in the world, giving some idea of just how long spiritual beliefs have characterised our species. " (even though nobody explains why that's the conclusion of a cremation, but whatever, we move on...)
Ok, so the earliest ritual ceremony around a death is 42,000 years ago. So remind me, how does this prove spirituality is inherent in humans and not something like stone tools that we simply picked up along the way? And also, what about before that, man wasn't spiritual for the previous millions of years?

Okay... so you are doing exactly what I said you would do.

This argument began with me saying, the oldest bones we've ever unearthed show signs of human spirituality. This is the oldest settlement we've ever found and there is human spirituality. Previously, the oldest civilizations we'd found were in Africa and we also found signs of ritual ceremony. Of course we know later civilizations in Egypt were certainly spiritual.

Now you ask how do we know it wasn't like stone tools. something we "picked up"? Well. we don't know this because we only have what we've unearthed. I suspect, before man became civilized, there probably wasn't spirituality. However, there are many prehistoric cave paintings and such to suggest that even the earliest Cro-Magnon cave men had some spiritual beliefs. I mean, if you subscribe to the whole "common ancestor" thing, I doubt the first monkey-human to pop out just said.. hmm.. got this dang urge to be spiritual for some reason! I wasn't there, we don't have evidence, so I don't know.

My only claim has been that spirituality has been inherent to mankind for as long as humans have been civilized and that's what the evidence shows. I can't tell you when it started which is the problem I have with those who claim it started when man invented it to [whatever]. That's an opinion and not a supported fact. We can say that about RELIGION but not spirituality. We know about when organized religious beliefs began, we can trace the origins. If human spirituality were invented, like stone tools and religion, we should find evidence of when it was invented and we don't. It has existed as long as man has been civilized. How it started, we don't know. It remains a fundamental characteristic and our most defining attribute as a species.

Back to the Lake Mungo findings... It's not just that we find evidence of cremation burial, it's the red ocher they used which is the key. This is an aesthetic material which was not available locally. They didn't just go out and bust open a rock and think... hmm, that's pretty, let me decorate this dead body with it. The red ocher had to be brought there from hundreds of miles away. That tells me it was an important thing and a special occasion when it was used. Truly, a ritualistic ceremony. So what practical or pragmatic reason would humans have to perform ritual ceremonies for the dead? It can only be spirituality.

So Boss, how do you think it all started? My opinion is, at some point, spiritual nature revealed itself to man and man became spiritually connected. Perhaps this is what enabled us to overcome fear of fire or create the first tools? I believe it stuck for the same reason it sticks around today... humans need to believe in something greater than self. It's our driving force... where we derive inspiration. Without it, we'd still be living in the trees picking our asses. That's my opinion.

Ahh, moving the goalposts. Now it's inherent since man was civilized. So spirituality is something we've learned along the way, making it NOT inherent. Thanks for clearing that up.

No.. that's been my claim all along. Before we were civilized, I don't know if humans were spiritual or even if they were totally humans. We didn't "learn it along the way" and I didn't say that. I told you what my opinion was but I don't know for sure what happened. It IS an inherent trait that has been with humans as long as humans have been civilized creatures. Or at least, as best we can tell, that seems to be the case. There is no evidence of when humans "invented" it.

So we mutated into spiritual beings? There's no proof of that.

 

[Boss]

I back my stuff up with a link to scientists. You linked to losers. You make the call.

You've not backed a goddamn thing up. You posted one link to an NYU study that found European Neanderthals practiced crude spiritual rituals. How does THAT refute human spirituality in ANY way?

I presented the most profound archaeological finding in human history and you want to pretend it isn't real or something. Just a pile-o-bones! Then you want to smugly act like I am somehow obligated to change your made up mind on something you have no intention of ever changing it over. And even MORE outrageous, trying to claim that I've not made my case unless I change your mind!

Fuck you... I don't need to change your mind. If you want to believe in myths and fairy tales, that's up to you. If you want to reject and refuse science, that's your business. You're not going to sit here and lie through your shit-stained teeth about it though, I'm going to continue to call you out on that. You can either present some valid evidence from science to back up your bullshit or it remains bullshit.

"The most profound archaeological finding in human history"?

Really, bossy?

That's odd because you're the only one making that claim.

List the ones that are more profound.

It's your claim. What is "most profound" about the finding?

Well, it's the oldest human settlement we've ever unearthed and it shows that humans were practicing spiritual beliefs. I think that's pretty profound, don't you agree?

 

[Hollie]

I back my stuff up with a link to scientists. You linked to losers. You make the call.

You've not backed a goddamn thing up. You posted one link to an NYU study that found European Neanderthals practiced crude spiritual rituals. How does THAT refute human spirituality in ANY way?

I presented the most profound archaeological finding in human history and you want to pretend it isn't real or something. Just a pile-o-bones! Then you want to smugly act like I am somehow obligated to change your made up mind on something you have no intention of ever changing it over. And even MORE outrageous, trying to claim that I've not made my case unless I change your mind!

Fuck you... I don't need to change your mind. If you want to believe in myths and fairy tales, that's up to you. If you want to reject and refuse science, that's your business. You're not going to sit here and lie through your shit-stained teeth about it though, I'm going to continue to call you out on that. You can either present some valid evidence from science to back up your bullshit or it remains bullshit.

"The most profound archaeological finding in human history"?

Really, bossy?

That's odd because you're the only one making that claim.

List the ones that are more profound.

It's your claim. What is "most profound" about the finding?

Well, it's the oldest human settlement we've ever unearthed and it shows that humans were practicing spiritual beliefs. I think that's pretty profound, don't you agree?

Not profound at all because there is no indication of any spiritual'ness, whatever you hope that slogan to mean.

 

[Boss]

Yes, I gave you the Wikipedia page for Lake Mungo so that you can go there and review the many sources available online regarding the various findings at the several sites. I also told you that I have no intention of playing the "gimme a link" game with you because I've been to that rodeo. I already know how that works... you destroy the source and reject the evidence. No sooner than I posted the Wiki link, that's exactly what you attempted to do. And you're still trying to.

I don't need to laugh in your face. You're making a fool out of yourself with no help from me. You somehow think that I am obligated to change your mind about something here. I don't have to change your mind. I already know and admit that it's not possible to change your mind. So if that's the point you're trying to prove, you win!

I'd have no problem changing my mind if you come up with real science to back your claims. You have nothing. Wiki isn't proof. If what Wiki posts is true, you'd have no problem finding a real source, but I couldn't find any, and neither can you.

I didn't say Wiki was proof of anything. Wiki is a resource that everyone is familiar with. The Lake Mungo Wiki page links to all kinds of assorted studies and sites you can explore on your own. There are numerous research papers on the findings there. I don't have time to sit here and do online research for a day to give you links that you're going to immediately dismiss and find fault with or pick apart... and that's exactly what you will do because that's what you do. It's pointless to me and I'm not going to waste my time. You're a lying piece of shit, you are NEVER going to change your mind, it's made up.

Jim Bowler is probably the most notable archaeologist who has studies the remains and he has published several papers on it. Perhaps you can Google him if you're having trouble?

Here are a few more links:
Mungo Archaeological Digs | The Foundation for National Parks and Wildlife
Lake Mungo (Australia)
Ancient bones found at Lake Mungo - 80 Days That Changed Our Lives - ABC Archives

As I said, there are dozens of links that come up when I Google Lake Mungo. I can't imagine what's the problem with your browser. I'm not experiencing any problems whatsoever, but as I said, this is one of the most prolific discoveries in human history. If you want to continue denying it is science or a scientific discovery, that's up to you. I am done with this argument. I won, you lost.

Ok, first links says he was ritually cremated some 42,000 years ago. Ok, link looks authentic, so that wasn't so hard for you to do, was it?
Third link says, "Mungo Lady is the oldest known cremation in the world, giving some idea of just how long spiritual beliefs have characterised our species. " (even though nobody explains why that's the conclusion of a cremation, but whatever, we move on...)
Ok, so the earliest ritual ceremony around a death is 42,000 years ago. So remind me, how does this prove spirituality is inherent in humans and not something like stone tools that we simply picked up along the way? And also, what about before that, man wasn't spiritual for the previous millions of years?

Okay... so you are doing exactly what I said you would do.

This argument began with me saying, the oldest bones we've ever unearthed show signs of human spirituality. This is the oldest settlement we've ever found and there is human spirituality. Previously, the oldest civilizations we'd found were in Africa and we also found signs of ritual ceremony. Of course we know later civilizations in Egypt were certainly spiritual.

Now you ask how do we know it wasn't like stone tools. something we "picked up"? Well. we don't know this because we only have what we've unearthed. I suspect, before man became civilized, there probably wasn't spirituality. However, there are many prehistoric cave paintings and such to suggest that even the earliest Cro-Magnon cave men had some spiritual beliefs. I mean, if you subscribe to the whole "common ancestor" thing, I doubt the first monkey-human to pop out just said.. hmm.. got this dang urge to be spiritual for some reason! I wasn't there, we don't have evidence, so I don't know.

My only claim has been that spirituality has been inherent to mankind for as long as humans have been civilized and that's what the evidence shows. I can't tell you when it started which is the problem I have with those who claim it started when man invented it to [whatever]. That's an opinion and not a supported fact. We can say that about RELIGION but not spirituality. We know about when organized religious beliefs began, we can trace the origins. If human spirituality were invented, like stone tools and religion, we should find evidence of when it was invented and we don't. It has existed as long as man has been civilized. How it started, we don't know. It remains a fundamental characteristic and our most defining attribute as a species.

Back to the Lake Mungo findings... It's not just that we find evidence of cremation burial, it's the red ocher they used which is the key. This is an aesthetic material which was not available locally. They didn't just go out and bust open a rock and think... hmm, that's pretty, let me decorate this dead body with it. The red ocher had to be brought there from hundreds of miles away. That tells me it was an important thing and a special occasion when it was used. Truly, a ritualistic ceremony. So what practical or pragmatic reason would humans have to perform ritual ceremonies for the dead? It can only be spirituality.

So Boss, how do you think it all started? My opinion is, at some point, spiritual nature revealed itself to man and man became spiritually connected. Perhaps this is what enabled us to overcome fear of fire or create the first tools? I believe it stuck for the same reason it sticks around today... humans need to believe in something greater than self. It's our driving force... where we derive inspiration. Without it, we'd still be living in the trees picking our asses. That's my opinion.

I'm afraid you're wrong now as you were before, bossy.

Nothing in the oldest human fossil discovery shows signs of your spirit realms.


Discovery of Oldest Human Fossil Fills Evolutionary Gap - History in the Headlines


You continue to confuse ancient fears and superstitions (which we still call "religion"), with your need to impose your gawds.

Sorry but that's simply not evidence of human civilization. Whenever you find some evidence of human civilizations devoid of spiritual beliefs, let me know. So far, we haven't discovered any.

 

[Boss]

You've not backed a goddamn thing up. You posted one link to an NYU study that found European Neanderthals practiced crude spiritual rituals. How does THAT refute human spirituality in ANY way?

I presented the most profound archaeological finding in human history and you want to pretend it isn't real or something. Just a pile-o-bones! Then you want to smugly act like I am somehow obligated to change your made up mind on something you have no intention of ever changing it over. And even MORE outrageous, trying to claim that I've not made my case unless I change your mind!

Fuck you... I don't need to change your mind. If you want to believe in myths and fairy tales, that's up to you. If you want to reject and refuse science, that's your business. You're not going to sit here and lie through your shit-stained teeth about it though, I'm going to continue to call you out on that. You can either present some valid evidence from science to back up your bullshit or it remains bullshit.

"The most profound archaeological finding in human history"?

Really, bossy?

That's odd because you're the only one making that claim.

List the ones that are more profound.

It's your claim. What is "most profound" about the finding?

Well, it's the oldest human settlement we've ever unearthed and it shows that humans were practicing spiritual beliefs. I think that's pretty profound, don't you agree?

Not profound at all because there is no indication of any spiritual'ness, whatever you hope that slogan to mean.

But there is and that's what the science shows indisputably.

 

[Mudda]

I back my stuff up with a link to scientists. You linked to losers. You make the call.

You've not backed a goddamn thing up. You posted one link to an NYU study that found European Neanderthals practiced crude spiritual rituals. How does THAT refute human spirituality in ANY way?

I presented the most profound archaeological finding in human history and you want to pretend it isn't real or something. Just a pile-o-bones! Then you want to smugly act like I am somehow obligated to change your made up mind on something you have no intention of ever changing it over. And even MORE outrageous, trying to claim that I've not made my case unless I change your mind!

Fuck you... I don't need to change your mind. If you want to believe in myths and fairy tales, that's up to you. If you want to reject and refuse science, that's your business. You're not going to sit here and lie through your shit-stained teeth about it though, I'm going to continue to call you out on that. You can either present some valid evidence from science to back up your bullshit or it remains bullshit.

"The most profound archaeological finding in human history"?

Really, bossy?

That's odd because you're the only one making that claim.

List the ones that are more profound.

It's your claim. What is "most profound" about the finding?

Well, it's the oldest human settlement we've ever unearthed and it shows that humans were practicing spiritual beliefs. I think that's pretty profound, don't you agree?

Wrong again doofus, the oldest known human settlement is 8500 years old.
Turkish Culture and Tourism Office Website - USA - The oldest known human settlement in the world!

 

[Boss]

I didn't say Wiki was proof of anything. Wiki is a resource that everyone is familiar with. The Lake Mungo Wiki page links to all kinds of assorted studies and sites you can explore on your own. There are numerous research papers on the findings there. I don't have time to sit here and do online research for a day to give you links that you're going to immediately dismiss and find fault with or pick apart... and that's exactly what you will do because that's what you do. It's pointless to me and I'm not going to waste my time. You're a lying piece of shit, you are NEVER going to change your mind, it's made up.

Jim Bowler is probably the most notable archaeologist who has studies the remains and he has published several papers on it. Perhaps you can Google him if you're having trouble?

Here are a few more links:
Mungo Archaeological Digs | The Foundation for National Parks and Wildlife
Lake Mungo (Australia)
Ancient bones found at Lake Mungo - 80 Days That Changed Our Lives - ABC Archives

As I said, there are dozens of links that come up when I Google Lake Mungo. I can't imagine what's the problem with your browser. I'm not experiencing any problems whatsoever, but as I said, this is one of the most prolific discoveries in human history. If you want to continue denying it is science or a scientific discovery, that's up to you. I am done with this argument. I won, you lost.

Ok, first links says he was ritually cremated some 42,000 years ago. Ok, link looks authentic, so that wasn't so hard for you to do, was it?
Third link says, "Mungo Lady is the oldest known cremation in the world, giving some idea of just how long spiritual beliefs have characterised our species. " (even though nobody explains why that's the conclusion of a cremation, but whatever, we move on...)
Ok, so the earliest ritual ceremony around a death is 42,000 years ago. So remind me, how does this prove spirituality is inherent in humans and not something like stone tools that we simply picked up along the way? And also, what about before that, man wasn't spiritual for the previous millions of years?

Okay... so you are doing exactly what I said you would do.

This argument began with me saying, the oldest bones we've ever unearthed show signs of human spirituality. This is the oldest settlement we've ever found and there is human spirituality. Previously, the oldest civilizations we'd found were in Africa and we also found signs of ritual ceremony. Of course we know later civilizations in Egypt were certainly spiritual.

Now you ask how do we know it wasn't like stone tools. something we "picked up"? Well. we don't know this because we only have what we've unearthed. I suspect, before man became civilized, there probably wasn't spirituality. However, there are many prehistoric cave paintings and such to suggest that even the earliest Cro-Magnon cave men had some spiritual beliefs. I mean, if you subscribe to the whole "common ancestor" thing, I doubt the first monkey-human to pop out just said.. hmm.. got this dang urge to be spiritual for some reason! I wasn't there, we don't have evidence, so I don't know.

My only claim has been that spirituality has been inherent to mankind for as long as humans have been civilized and that's what the evidence shows. I can't tell you when it started which is the problem I have with those who claim it started when man invented it to [whatever]. That's an opinion and not a supported fact. We can say that about RELIGION but not spirituality. We know about when organized religious beliefs began, we can trace the origins. If human spirituality were invented, like stone tools and religion, we should find evidence of when it was invented and we don't. It has existed as long as man has been civilized. How it started, we don't know. It remains a fundamental characteristic and our most defining attribute as a species.

Back to the Lake Mungo findings... It's not just that we find evidence of cremation burial, it's the red ocher they used which is the key. This is an aesthetic material which was not available locally. They didn't just go out and bust open a rock and think... hmm, that's pretty, let me decorate this dead body with it. The red ocher had to be brought there from hundreds of miles away. That tells me it was an important thing and a special occasion when it was used. Truly, a ritualistic ceremony. So what practical or pragmatic reason would humans have to perform ritual ceremonies for the dead? It can only be spirituality.

So Boss, how do you think it all started? My opinion is, at some point, spiritual nature revealed itself to man and man became spiritually connected. Perhaps this is what enabled us to overcome fear of fire or create the first tools? I believe it stuck for the same reason it sticks around today... humans need to believe in something greater than self. It's our driving force... where we derive inspiration. Without it, we'd still be living in the trees picking our asses. That's my opinion.

Ahh, moving the goalposts. Now it's inherent since man was civilized. So spirituality is something we've learned along the way, making it NOT inherent. Thanks for clearing that up.

No.. that's been my claim all along. Before we were civilized, I don't know if humans were spiritual or even if they were totally humans. We didn't "learn it along the way" and I didn't say that. I told you what my opinion was but I don't know for sure what happened. It IS an inherent trait that has been with humans as long as humans have been civilized creatures. Or at least, as best we can tell, that seems to be the case. There is no evidence of when humans "invented" it.

So we mutated into spiritual beings? There's no proof of that.

I didn't say we "mutated" into anything. I gave my opinion and I told you it was my opinion and I couldn't prove it. I think at some point, humans became aware of a spiritual connection. How that came to be, I have no way of knowing. What I know for a fact is, at least 40,000 years ago, human beings were spiritual creatures. There has never been a human civilization discovered anywhere on the planet that didn't have some kind of spiritual belief.

 

[Boss]

You've not backed a goddamn thing up. You posted one link to an NYU study that found European Neanderthals practiced crude spiritual rituals. How does THAT refute human spirituality in ANY way?

I presented the most profound archaeological finding in human history and you want to pretend it isn't real or something. Just a pile-o-bones! Then you want to smugly act like I am somehow obligated to change your made up mind on something you have no intention of ever changing it over. And even MORE outrageous, trying to claim that I've not made my case unless I change your mind!

Fuck you... I don't need to change your mind. If you want to believe in myths and fairy tales, that's up to you. If you want to reject and refuse science, that's your business. You're not going to sit here and lie through your shit-stained teeth about it though, I'm going to continue to call you out on that. You can either present some valid evidence from science to back up your bullshit or it remains bullshit.

"The most profound archaeological finding in human history"?

Really, bossy?

That's odd because you're the only one making that claim.

List the ones that are more profound.

It's your claim. What is "most profound" about the finding?

Well, it's the oldest human settlement we've ever unearthed and it shows that humans were practicing spiritual beliefs. I think that's pretty profound, don't you agree?

Wrong again doofus, the oldest known human settlement is 8500 years old.
Turkish Culture and Tourism Office Website - USA - The oldest known human settlement in the world!

Well you read yourself that Lake Mungo man and woman were 40k years old... so is 40,000 less than 8,500?

 

[Boss]

Wrong again doofus, the oldest known human settlement is 8500 years old.
Turkish Culture and Tourism Office Website - USA - The oldest known human settlement in the world!

What's even MORE hilarious is that your linked example reveals there were TEMPLES... sounds like "spiritual belief" to me! Ooops!

 

[Boss]

...because there is no indication of any spiritual'ness, whatever you hope that slogan to mean.

Well, in the case of Mungo Man and Mungo Woman, it meant they had ritual ceremonial burials using 'imported' red ocher. There is no practical explanation for this other than spiritual belief.

 

[Boss]

You continue to confuse ancient fears and superstitions (which we still call "religion"), with your need to impose your gawds.

I'm not trying to "impose" anything... that is your extremist anti-religion rhetoric. I am merely stating facts we've discovered regarding human civilization. Indeed, humans DID invent religions but it wasn't to "explain the unexplained" or out of "fears" it was because humans are spiritual creatures.

 

[Mudda]

Ok, first links says he was ritually cremated some 42,000 years ago. Ok, link looks authentic, so that wasn't so hard for you to do, was it?
Third link says, "Mungo Lady is the oldest known cremation in the world, giving some idea of just how long spiritual beliefs have characterised our species. " (even though nobody explains why that's the conclusion of a cremation, but whatever, we move on...)
Ok, so the earliest ritual ceremony around a death is 42,000 years ago. So remind me, how does this prove spirituality is inherent in humans and not something like stone tools that we simply picked up along the way? And also, what about before that, man wasn't spiritual for the previous millions of years?

Okay... so you are doing exactly what I said you would do.

This argument began with me saying, the oldest bones we've ever unearthed show signs of human spirituality. This is the oldest settlement we've ever found and there is human spirituality. Previously, the oldest civilizations we'd found were in Africa and we also found signs of ritual ceremony. Of course we know later civilizations in Egypt were certainly spiritual.

Now you ask how do we know it wasn't like stone tools. something we "picked up"? Well. we don't know this because we only have what we've unearthed. I suspect, before man became civilized, there probably wasn't spirituality. However, there are many prehistoric cave paintings and such to suggest that even the earliest Cro-Magnon cave men had some spiritual beliefs. I mean, if you subscribe to the whole "common ancestor" thing, I doubt the first monkey-human to pop out just said.. hmm.. got this dang urge to be spiritual for some reason! I wasn't there, we don't have evidence, so I don't know.

My only claim has been that spirituality has been inherent to mankind for as long as humans have been civilized and that's what the evidence shows. I can't tell you when it started which is the problem I have with those who claim it started when man invented it to [whatever]. That's an opinion and not a supported fact. We can say that about RELIGION but not spirituality. We know about when organized religious beliefs began, we can trace the origins. If human spirituality were invented, like stone tools and religion, we should find evidence of when it was invented and we don't. It has existed as long as man has been civilized. How it started, we don't know. It remains a fundamental characteristic and our most defining attribute as a species.

Back to the Lake Mungo findings... It's not just that we find evidence of cremation burial, it's the red ocher they used which is the key. This is an aesthetic material which was not available locally. They didn't just go out and bust open a rock and think... hmm, that's pretty, let me decorate this dead body with it. The red ocher had to be brought there from hundreds of miles away. That tells me it was an important thing and a special occasion when it was used. Truly, a ritualistic ceremony. So what practical or pragmatic reason would humans have to perform ritual ceremonies for the dead? It can only be spirituality.

So Boss, how do you think it all started? My opinion is, at some point, spiritual nature revealed itself to man and man became spiritually connected. Perhaps this is what enabled us to overcome fear of fire or create the first tools? I believe it stuck for the same reason it sticks around today... humans need to believe in something greater than self. It's our driving force... where we derive inspiration. Without it, we'd still be living in the trees picking our asses. That's my opinion.

Ahh, moving the goalposts. Now it's inherent since man was civilized. So spirituality is something we've learned along the way, making it NOT inherent. Thanks for clearing that up.

No.. that's been my claim all along. Before we were civilized, I don't know if humans were spiritual or even if they were totally humans. We didn't "learn it along the way" and I didn't say that. I told you what my opinion was but I don't know for sure what happened. It IS an inherent trait that has been with humans as long as humans have been civilized creatures. Or at least, as best we can tell, that seems to be the case. There is no evidence of when humans "invented" it.

So we mutated into spiritual beings? There's no proof of that.

I didn't say we "mutated" into anything. I gave my opinion and I told you it was my opinion and I couldn't prove it. I think at some point, humans became aware of a spiritual connection. How that came to be, I have no way of knowing. What I know for a fact is, at least 40,000 years ago, human beings were spiritual creatures. There has never been a human civilization discovered anywhere on the planet that didn't have some kind of spiritual belief.

So it's not inherent. Got it. Thanks.