Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[Flopper]

Exactly. Corporatists on both sides will keep importing immigrants to fill the jobs and for growth. So building a wall won’t make wages go up because they’ll keep flooding the market with low skilled workers.

Then those corporations would not only be guilty of hiring these people, but complicit in breaking our immigration laws as well unless they bring them here legally.

That's one of the reasons I focus on E-Verify.

We should focus on everything; not just one avenue. If we stuck together to do all we can to stop illegal immigration, it would be stopped. However like everything else, it comes down to power and politics.

Start with the least expensive, most immediate and most effective solutions FIRST. E-Verify hits all those marks. Its ready right now, its very inexpensive, and it works. It also addresses a huge source of illegal immigrants; those who have overstayed their visas.

The wall....is expensive, slow, ineffective, and doesn't even address a full third of llegal immigration. Its a stupid policy. And the one the president is leading with.

Like I said, do any and everything that will work. But since the wall will take the most time to build, the sooner we start, the better. Even if it was only E-Verify, people still come here to have babies, they still come here to sell drugs, they still come here to live with family that's already here. E-Verify will never be successful on it's own just like a wall won't be successful on it's own.

The only solution that hits all avenues of illegal crossings are if we make being here illegal a first degree felony with a minimum sentence of 5 years in prison. Then we wouldn't need a wall or E-Veryfiy. The only border problem we would have are people rushing to get the hell out of this country.

The vast number of people that come across the border do not come here to sell drugs and certainly don't come to have babies. That's just bull shit that has been discredited time and again.

 

[bripat9643]

The CIA played no part in overthrowing the government, asshole. If they aren't communists, Chileans love the CIA.

So you go the extra mile of putting up a wall between you and the truth.

I posted the truth, moron. The CIA played no part in the coup. The people of Chile despised Allende.

 

[bripat9643]

You're an idiot. It's been legal to use force against trespassers for 250 years.

Not only are you the idiot, you're a violent one.

...a person is allowed to use deadly force to protect their home if:

1. Another person is committing an illegal act, such as arson, burglary, robbery, or another felony,
2. There is a genuine and immediate danger for individuals
3. The use of deadly force would prevent or stop the illegal activity
4. Not using deadly force would put homeowners or family members at risk of serious bodily injury.

For example, you cannot use deadly force if person X is illegally, but innocently trespassing near person A's home, it would not be acceptable for person A to come after person X with a baseball bat and hit him on the head. ​

I said "force." You said "deadly force."

 

[Skylar]

No they will not. Piglosi said it herself, the wall is totally off the table. Nothing is being traded for it.

Immigration has always been a problem. Perhaps you on the left could care less, but for the rest of us, a real problem. Donald Trump didn't create a problem, he addressed the problem. In fact that's what led to his victory against Hil-Liar. Every other candidate spoke the same way about illegals. Blah, blah, blah, Blah, blah, blah. Only Trump was transcending in what he said. He told us what we wanted to hear: We are going to stop illegals from entering this country. We will build a wall. And that's why in light of our congressional loss, Trump is addressing the issue much more seriously.

There are far more affordable, faster, and more effective methods: Make E-Verify mandatory and put some teeth in it.

Illegal immigrant focused enforcement is stupid. Illegals are numerous, numbering in the tens of millions. They move. We don't know where they live. They may or may not be using their own names. And if we deport them, they can come back.

Use employer based focus.....the same way we focus our drug enforcement policy not on the users, but on the sellers and distributors. Employers make far more sense. They're public, they generally don't move, they're easy to find (most advertise!), they use their real names, and they're far less numerous.

Make the use of E-verify mandatory. Give any employer that doesn't use it 1 year in prison....including HR people and Hiring Managers. If an employer uses E-Verify and a perspective employee passes...and are later found to be illegal, the employer is free and clear. Employers only get in trouble if they don't use E-Verify.

The system already exists, is easy to use....so there's no ramp up or roll out. It takes a few minutes per employee and can be done online or over the phone. Merely make it mandatory, put some teeth behind it and give employers a 6 month grace period to bring their employees into compliance. You'd need a few dozen high profile prosecutions before employers got the message....and jobs for illegals dried up.

In comparison to their home countries, the US is usually expensive. With no work, they'll largely deport themselves. You could have the vast majority of the illegal immigration problem fixed in about a year. It would work and work well.

Utter horseshit. All your claims have been refuted in this forum 1000 times. The wall has been proven the most effective method for controlling illegal immigration.

Nope. And no, it hasn't.

A wall actually increases illegal immigration by making it more expensive to cross the border. Before a wall immigrants would come here, earn money, and then go home. There were entire seasonal work forces that would arrive from Mexico, help bring in a harvest of a particular crop, earn some money and go home. And come back the next year for the next harvest season.

Now people have to work for years to pay back the cost of crossing the border. Meaning they have to stay longer. And when they stay longer, they have more kids here, there is less incentive for them to go home.

Worse, about a third of illegals are folks who merely overstayed visas. Which walls do nothing to prevent.

Walls are expensive to make expensive to buy land for and even more expensive to maintain. They can be circumvented by anyone who really wants to. To quote Trump's own chief of staff,

"the bottom line is the fence doesn't stop anybody who really wants to get across. You go under, you go around, you go through it. And that's what the ranchers tell us, is that they don't need a fence."

Mick Mulvaney

Mick Mulvaney in 2015: Trump's views on border wall 'simplistic,' 'absurd and almost childish' - CNNPolitics

Nor does the fence keep them from coming back.

The E-Verify system works on all of those fronts. It eliminates the work that illegals come here for, or those overstaying their visas require in order to stay here. Compared to their home countries, the US is usually expensive. Stripped of the means of making a living, most would go home where its far cheaper.

The wall is orders of magnitude MORE expensive, takes years to build, is wildly expensive to maintain, is ineffective, doesn't address 1/3 or illegal immigrants at all, and actually increases the incentive for them to stay once they've arrived. Its a stupid proposal.

E-Verify is orders of magnitude LESS expensive, it is already in place, its maintenance costs are minimal (a website, phone line and paperwork), its very effective, it DOES address the 1/3 of illegal immigrants that the wall ignores, and it REDUCES the incentive for illegals to stay here. Its a smart proposal.

A wall will also increase the number illegal immigrants because the increased border security makes it harder for migrants to leave without being picked by immigration and getting back in the US is harder so once in they are here to stay.

No. When they leave, they can do so at a point of entry. Nobody is going to stop a Mexican from going back to Mexico.

Its not the trip out of the US. Its the trip back in.

All walls do is make the passage across the border more expensive. Which means that illegals have to work longer in the US to pay for their passage. The increase cost incentivizes people to say longer.

Get rid of the incentive to stay here by eliminating the jobs.

 

[Billo_Really]

Tissue? Funny how you commies claim fraud when everyone is required to play by the same rules.

.

They weren't playing by the same rules in NC. Funny how you fuckers bitch and moan about voter fraud, but then when it actually occurs, you say nothing.

 

[Billo_Really]

You're a certifiable idiot. People have a right to use force to protect their property. The fact is irrefutable. I have personally had a shotgun pointed in my direction by a rancher because we were on his land.

Debating you is a waste of time because so much of what you believe just isn't true.

If you weren't threatening the rancher, he would've gone to jail.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

There are far more affordable, faster, and more effective methods: Make E-Verify mandatory and put some teeth in it.

Illegal immigrant focused enforcement is stupid. Illegals are numerous, numbering in the tens of millions. They move. We don't know where they live. They may or may not be using their own names. And if we deport them, they can come back.

Use employer based focus.....the same way we focus our drug enforcement policy not on the users, but on the sellers and distributors. Employers make far more sense. They're public, they generally don't move, they're easy to find (most advertise!), they use their real names, and they're far less numerous.

Make the use of E-verify mandatory. Give any employer that doesn't use it 1 year in prison....including HR people and Hiring Managers. If an employer uses E-Verify and a perspective employee passes...and are later found to be illegal, the employer is free and clear. Employers only get in trouble if they don't use E-Verify.

The system already exists, is easy to use....so there's no ramp up or roll out. It takes a few minutes per employee and can be done online or over the phone. Merely make it mandatory, put some teeth behind it and give employers a 6 month grace period to bring their employees into compliance. You'd need a few dozen high profile prosecutions before employers got the message....and jobs for illegals dried up.

In comparison to their home countries, the US is usually expensive. With no work, they'll largely deport themselves. You could have the vast majority of the illegal immigration problem fixed in about a year. It would work and work well.

Utter horseshit. All your claims have been refuted in this forum 1000 times. The wall has been proven the most effective method for controlling illegal immigration.

Nope. And no, it hasn't.

A wall actually increases illegal immigration by making it more expensive to cross the border. Before a wall immigrants would come here, earn money, and then go home. There were entire seasonal work forces that would arrive from Mexico, help bring in a harvest of a particular crop, earn some money and go home. And come back the next year for the next harvest season.

Now people have to work for years to pay back the cost of crossing the border. Meaning they have to stay longer. And when they stay longer, they have more kids here, there is less incentive for them to go home.

Worse, about a third of illegals are folks who merely overstayed visas. Which walls do nothing to prevent.

Walls are expensive to make expensive to buy land for and even more expensive to maintain. They can be circumvented by anyone who really wants to. To quote Trump's own chief of staff,

"the bottom line is the fence doesn't stop anybody who really wants to get across. You go under, you go around, you go through it. And that's what the ranchers tell us, is that they don't need a fence."

Mick Mulvaney

Mick Mulvaney in 2015: Trump's views on border wall 'simplistic,' 'absurd and almost childish' - CNNPolitics

Nor does the fence keep them from coming back.

The E-Verify system works on all of those fronts. It eliminates the work that illegals come here for, or those overstaying their visas require in order to stay here. Compared to their home countries, the US is usually expensive. Stripped of the means of making a living, most would go home where its far cheaper.

The wall is orders of magnitude MORE expensive, takes years to build, is wildly expensive to maintain, is ineffective, doesn't address 1/3 or illegal immigrants at all, and actually increases the incentive for them to stay once they've arrived. Its a stupid proposal.

E-Verify is orders of magnitude LESS expensive, it is already in place, its maintenance costs are minimal (a website, phone line and paperwork), its very effective, it DOES address the 1/3 of illegal immigrants that the wall ignores, and it REDUCES the incentive for illegals to stay here. Its a smart proposal.

A wall will also increase the number illegal immigrants because the increased border security makes it harder for migrants to leave without being picked by immigration and getting back in the US is harder so once in they are here to stay.

No. When they leave, they can do so at a point of entry. Nobody is going to stop a Mexican from going back to Mexico.

Its not the trip out of the US. Its the trip back in.

All walls do is make the passage across the border more expensive. Which means that illegals have to work longer in the US to pay for their passage. The increase cost incentivizes people to say longer.

Get rid of the incentive to stay here by eliminating the jobs.

It's estimated that we have around 20 million illegals in this country now. I find it very difficult to believed that we have 20 million people working illegally in the United States.

As I stated, there is no one fix all solution. These solutions have to work in unison and be implemented together. Furthermore if you want to complain about people hiring illegals, why don't you complain about sanctuary cities that make it comfortable for these people to live here? After all, if all law enforcement notified ICE when a suspect is captured, they would have no peace living anywhere in this country.

 

[Billo_Really]

This country was founded by native born Americans, dumbass.

And what did you do to them?

 

[Billo_Really]

We ignore international law whenever we feel like it.

Then you do not embrace American values.

 

[bripat9643]

We ignore international law whenever we feel like it.

Then you do not embrace American values.

International law is the opposite if American values.

 

[Billo_Really]

But we do have the right to restrict access to the US after they apply like Trump is doing. Under DumBama, catch and release was his way of doing things, so these people came here knowing they could sneak in and afterwards, never attend their court date. Then they could settle in some Sanctuary city and be protected from the federal government, even getting an apartment, a drivers license, and credit cards.

Do you think you have the right to kill their children?

 

[OKTexas]

Tissue? Funny how you commies claim fraud when everyone is required to play by the same rules.

.

They weren't playing by the same rules in NC. Funny how you fuckers bitch and moan about voter fraud, but then when it actually occurs, you say nothing.

Yeah, I've seen the claims, not much proof though. Commie operatives who probably did the same thing most likely brought the complaint. Why would they let candidates know who requested an absentee ballot and who haven't mailed them back? Both parties had access to that info.

.

 

[Billo_Really]

What are you going to "whoop" when you have a Republican led Senate and a Republican White House?

I'm not really sure. I just know it has to be opened.

Are the Democrats going to beat each other up or something?

They need to purge the blue dogs.

 

[Billo_Really]

I posted the truth, moron. The CIA played no part in the coup. The people of Chile despised Allende.

So you like sucking Pinochet penis?

CIA Admits Involvement in Chile
The CIA is acknowledging for the first time the extent of its deep involvement in Chile, where it dealt with coup-plotters, false propagandists and assassins.​

 

[Billo_Really]

International law is the opposite if American values.

That's a strange thing to say in light of the fact we co-wrote them.

 

[Billo_Really]

Yeah, I've seen the claims, not much proof though. Commie operatives who probably did the same thing most likely brought the complaint. Why would they let candidates know who requested an absentee ballot and who haven't mailed them back? Both parties had access to that info.

.

Republican campaign grunts showed up at peoples houses demanding their ballets.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

But we do have the right to restrict access to the US after they apply like Trump is doing. Under DumBama, catch and release was his way of doing things, so these people came here knowing they could sneak in and afterwards, never attend their court date. Then they could settle in some Sanctuary city and be protected from the federal government, even getting an apartment, a drivers license, and credit cards.

Do you think you have the right to kill their children?

So who's killing their children?

 

[OKTexas]

But we do have the right to restrict access to the US after they apply like Trump is doing. Under DumBama, catch and release was his way of doing things, so these people came here knowing they could sneak in and afterwards, never attend their court date. Then they could settle in some Sanctuary city and be protected from the federal government, even getting an apartment, a drivers license, and credit cards.

Do you think you have the right to kill their children?

No one killed anyones children. They got sick from their parents neglect and died.

.

 

[OKTexas]

Yeah, I've seen the claims, not much proof though. Commie operatives who probably did the same thing most likely brought the complaint. Why would they let candidates know who requested an absentee ballot and who haven't mailed them back? Both parties had access to that info.

.

Republican campaign grunts showed up at peoples houses demanding their ballets.

How did anyone know if they hadn't showed up to collect them themselves?

.

 

[bripat9643]

It isn't possible for that to be a lie, moron. It's an opinion, and it's far more credible than yours. The theory that foreigners have a right to emigrate here couldn't be more idiotic.

WTF are you talking about? This country was founded by emigrating foreigners. As an American, we believe in the rule of law. Requesting asylum is codified in international law. Not respecting the law, is not being an American.

Wrong again, moron. Except for one or two, every person involved in founding this country was born here.