Why is naturalism considered scientific and creationism is not ?

[Youwerecreated]

Well, gee, your response is to make claims and then don't support them? Lame, dude. Lame. What unsupported assumptions does evolution make that cannot be tested or observed? Be specific.

Well gee macro-evolution,did you not get it ?

How new genetic information is added to support the assumptions of mutations as a mechanism to add beneficial information.

I made myself clear the first time.

There is ample evidence for macro evolution. It's been presented to you on numerous occasions.

All it turned out to be was micro adaptations or speciation. You let me know when a Lion or Tiger is no longer a member of the Cat kind.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Are you completely clueless ? unless you cross breed a boxer you will only wind up with boxers. do yourself a favor and please read up on Gregor Mendel since you clearly don't understand basic genetics that most breeders understand

American Boxer Club: Genetic Diseases

Boxers have a number of health conditions attributable to either inbreeding, or other genetic abnormalities. For instance:

Hip Dysplasia, which is the number one cause of lameness in dogs. Hip dysplasia is thought to be genetically determined in part, but the mode of inheritance has not been established, since multiple genes and environmental factors such as nutrition and rapid growth may play a role in its development.

While some have questioned the frequency and severity of hip dysplasia in the boxer, many owners are now testing their dogs. The OFA currently reports the boxer as 67th in incidence of dysplasia (among breeds where over 100 dogs have been tested) with 2.9% of boxers testing excellent and 11.3% dysplasitic

Thyroid disease in the boxer occurs primarily as hypothyroidism, or impaired thyroid gland function with low thyroid hormone levels. It often develops slowly over several months or years. The animal's body, for as yet unknown reasons, forms antibodies against its own thyroid gland resulting in partial or complete destruction of the gland and the subsequent inability to produce adequate thyroid hormone.

Many breeds, including the boxer, seem to be genetically predisposed to hypothyroidism.
There is no evidence that this inherited disease is a result of lost genetic material. There is evidence that there is a mutation in the genes that regulate thyroglobulin autoantibodies.

One of the most common causes of sudden/unexpected death in boxers, both young and old, is a condition thought to be inherited and characterized by abnormal heart rhythms involving the ventricles (the main blood pumping chambers) of the heart (cardiomyopathy).

The definitive test for this disease would be a DNA test for the abnormal gene.

One of the most common heart defects occurring in dogs, boxers in particular, is aortic or subaortic stenosis. In most cases the stenosis, or narrowing, is produced by a fibrous ring of tissue below the aortic valve, hence the term "subaortic." The disease is inherited but its mode of transmission is not known at this time.

So, YWC, care to inform us of the source of your claims about boxers?

By the way, boxers are boxers because their traits have been selected for - that is, the traits they have have been selected in such a way that they are dominant traits instead of being recessive traits. Many other dogs have the traits of boxers, but have them recessively. The boxers have been selected for those specific traits. No information was lost. They still have the traits of many other dogs, and through breeding, they can be changed into some other breed, and in fact, by very carful selective breeding and a good testing program, it is believed by the American Boxer club that many of the inherited diseases boxers have can be bred out of them without loosing the traits that make them boxers.

Prove a boxer can produce an earlier ancestor it took to create the boxer. Then prove it was not due to cross breeding.

The notion that mixed-breed dogs are healthier than purebreds has some basis in fact, according to research published in the June 1 issue of the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association.

Study Shows Mutts Genetically Healthier

Prove a boxer can produce an earlier ancestor it took to create the boxer.

Well, first, you need 2 boxers and second, shut the fuck up already.
Damn you're a moron.

 

[orogenicman]

1.Macroevolution has never been observed except in the case where someone does not know the difference between microadaptations and macroevolution.

This is a lie, and since we've addressed this issue at least a dozen times, it is clear that you know it is a lie, which means that for you to continue to promote it makes you a willful liar.



Ever hear of endogenous retroviruses? 7% of the human genome is composed of it, genetic material that wasn't there until at sometime somebody got exposed to a pathogen that was able to transfer its genetic material into our own. I can guarantee that you have lots of genetic material in you that you didn't have when you were born. Some of that has made its way into your genome, and will/was transferred to your offspring.

The fact that you are a placental mammal is due to the infection of all such mammals with an endogenous retrovirus.

Placental endogenous retrovirus (ERV): structural,... [Bioessays. 1998] - PubMed - NCBI

When reproducing you breed out genetic information you don't breed in genetic information. With all the populations and generations of flies that exp mutations whether occurring naturally or induced there has never been a new trait passed on to the group through mutations. The only way it happens is through selective breeding.

What you are essentially saying is that there are no observed instance s of speciation. You didn't do an very long search to come to that conclusion, did you?

Observed Instances of Speciation

This is a very long article, so I won't post it all here. You'll have to actually read it. I will, however, post the bibliography to show how much support the article has in the scientific community:

Ahearn, J. N. 1980. Evolution of behavioral reproductive isolation in a laboratory stock of Drosophila silvestris. Experientia. 36:63-64.

Barton, N. H., J. S. Jones and J. Mallet. 1988. No barriers to speciation. Nature. 336:13-14.

Baum, D. 1992. Phylogenetic species concepts. Trends in Ecology and Evolution. 7:1-3.

Boraas, M. E. 1983. Predator induced evolution in chemostat culture. EOS. Transactions of the American Geophysical Union. 64:1102.

Breeuwer, J. A. J. and J. H. Werren. 1990. Microorganisms associated with chromosome destruction and reproductive isolation between two insect species. Nature. 346:558-560.

Budd, A. F. and B. D. Mishler. 1990. Species and evolution in clonal organisms -- a summary and discussion. Systematic Botany 15:166-171.

Bullini, L. and G. Nascetti. 1990. Speciation by hybridization in phasmids and other insects. Canadian Journal of Zoology. 68:1747-1760.

Butters, F. K. 1941. Hybrid Woodsias in Minnesota. Amer. Fern. J. 31:15-21.

Butters, F. K. and R. M. Tryon, jr. 1948. A fertile mutant of a Woodsia hybrid. American Journal of Botany. 35:138.

Brock, T. D. and M. T. Madigan. 1988. Biology of Microorganisms (5th edition). Prentice Hall, Englewood, NJ.

Callaghan, C. A. 1987. Instances of observed speciation. The American Biology Teacher. 49:3436.

Castenholz, R. W. 1992. Species usage, concept, and evolution in the cyanobacteria (blue-green algae). Journal of Phycology 28:737-745.

Clausen, J., D. D. Keck and W. M. Hiesey. 1945. Experimental studies on the nature of species. II. Plant evolution through amphiploidy and autoploidy, with examples from the Madiinae. Carnegie Institute Washington Publication, 564:1-174.

Cracraft, J. 1989. Speciation and its ontology: the empirical consequences of alternative species concepts for understanding patterns and processes of differentiation. In Otte, E. and J. A. Endler [eds.] Speciation and its consequences. Sinauer Associates, Sunderland, MA. pp. 28-59.

Craig, T. P., J. K. Itami, W. G. Abrahamson and J. D. Horner. 1993. Behavioral evidence for host-race fromation in Eurosta solidaginis. Evolution. 47:1696-1710.

Cronquist, A. 1978. Once again, what is a species? Biosystematics in agriculture. Beltsville Symposia in Agricultural Research 2:3-20.

Cronquist, A. 1988. The evolution and classification of flowering plants (2nd edition). The New York Botanical Garden, Bronx, NY.

Crossley, S. A. 1974. Changes in mating behavior produced by selection for ethological isolation between ebony and vestigial mutants of Drosophilia melanogaster. Evolution. 28:631-647.

de Oliveira, A. K. and A. R. Cordeiro. 1980. Adaptation of Drosophila willistoni experimental populations to extreme pH medium. II. Development of incipient reproductive isolation. Heredity. 44:123-130.

de Queiroz, K. and M. Donoghue. 1988. Phylogenetic systematics and the species problem. Cladistics. 4:317-338.

de Queiroz, K. and M. Donoghue. 1990. Phylogenetic systematics and species revisited. Cladistics. 6:83-90.

de Vries, H. 1905. Species and varieties, their origin by mutation.

de Wet, J. M. J. 1971. Polyploidy and evolution in plants. Taxon. 20:29-35.

del Solar, E. 1966. Sexual isolation caused by selection for positive and negative phototaxis and geotaxis in Drosophila pseudoobscura. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (US). 56:484-487.

Digby, L. 1912. The cytology of Primula kewensis and of other related Primula hybrids. Ann. Bot. 26:357-388.

Dobzhansky, T. 1937. Genetics and the origin of species. Columbia University Press, New York.

Dobzhansky, T. 1951. Genetics and the origin of species (3rd edition). Columbia University Press, New York.

Dobzhansky, T. and O. Pavlovsky. 1971. Experimentally created incipient species of Drosophila. Nature. 230:289-292.

Dobzhansky, T. 1972. Species of Drosophila: new excitement in an old field. Science. 177:664-669.

Dodd, D. M. B. 1989. Reproductive isolation as a consequence of adaptive divergence in Drosophila melanogaster. Evolution 43:1308-1311.

Dodd, D. M. B. and J. R. Powell. 1985. Founder-flush speciation: an update of experimental results with Drosophila. Evolution 39:1388-1392.

Donoghue, M. J. 1985. A critique of the biological species concept and recommendations for a phylogenetic alternative. Bryologist 88:172-181.

Du Rietz, G. E. 1930. The fundamental units of biological taxonomy. Svensk. Bot. Tidskr. 24:333-428.

Ehrman, E. 1971. Natural selection for the origin of reproductive isolation. The American Naturalist. 105:479-483.

Ehrman, E. 1973. More on natural selection for the origin of reproductive isolation. The American Naturalist. 107:318-319.

Feder, J. L., C. A. Chilcote and G. L. Bush. 1988. Genetic differentiation between sympatric host races of the apple maggot fly, Rhagoletis pomonella. Nature. 336:61-64.

Feder, J. L. and G. L. Bush. 1989. A field test of differential host-plant usage between two sibling species of Rhagoletis pomonella fruit flies (Diptera:Tephritidae) and its consequences for sympatric models of speciation. Evolution 43:1813-1819.

Frandsen, K. J. 1943. The experimental formation of Brassica juncea Czern. et Coss. Dansk. Bot. Arkiv., No. 4, 11:1-17.

Frandsen, K. J. 1947. The experimental formation of Brassica napus L. var. oleifera DC and Brassica carinata Braun. Dansk. Bot. Arkiv., No. 7, 12:1-16.

Galiana, A., A. Moya and F. J. Alaya. 1993. Founder-flush speciation in Drosophila pseudoobscura: a large scale experiment. Evolution. 47432-444.

Gottleib, L. D. 1973. Genetic differentiation, sympatric speciation, and the origin of a diploid species of Stephanomeira. American Journal of Botany. 60: 545-553.

Halliburton, R. and G. A. E. Gall. 1981. Disruptive selection and assortative mating in Tribolium castaneum. Evolution. 35:829-843.

Hurd, L. E., and R. M. Eisenberg. 1975. Divergent selection for geotactic response and evolution of reproductive isolation in sympatric and allopatric populations of houseflies. The American Naturalist. 109:353-358.

Karpchenko, G. D. 1927. Polyploid hybrids of Raphanus sativus L. X Brassica oleraceae L. Bull. Appl. Botany. 17:305-408.

Karpchenko, G. D. 1928. Polyploid hybrids of Raphanus sativus L. X Brassica oleraceae L. Z. Indukt. Abstami-a Verenbungsi. 48:1-85.

Kilias, G., S. N. Alahiotis and M. Delecanos. 1980. A multifactorial investigation of speciation theory using Drosophila melanogaster. Evolution. 34:730-737.

Knight, G. R., A. Robertson and C. H. Waddington. 1956. Selection for sexual isolation within a species. Evolution. 10:14-22.

Koopman, K. F. 1950. Natural selection for reproductive isolation between Drosophila pseudoobscura and Drosophila persimilis. Evolution. 4:135-148.

Lee, R. E. 1989. Phycology (2nd edition) Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, UK

Levin, D. A. 1979. The nature of plant species. Science 204:381-384.

Lokki, J. and A. Saura. 1980. Polyploidy in insect evolution. In: W. H. Lewis (ed.) Polyploidy: Biological Relevance. Plenum Press, New York.

Macnair, M. R. 1981. Tolerance of higher plants to toxic materials. In: J. A. Bishop and L. M. Cook (eds.). Genetic consequences of man made change. Pp.177-297. Academic Press, New York.

Macnair, M. R. and P. Christie. 1983. Reproductive isolation as a pleiotropic effect of copper tolerance in Mimulus guttatus. Heredity. 50:295-302.

Manhart, J. R. and R. M. McCourt. 1992. Molecular data and species concepts in the algae. Journal of Phycology. 28:730-737.

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Mayr, E. 1982. The growth of biological thought: diversity, evolution and inheritance. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA. McCourt, R. M. and R. W. Hoshaw. 1990. Noncorrespondence of breeding groups, morphology and monophyletic groups in Spirogyra (Zygnemataceae; Chlorophyta) and the application of species concepts. Systematic Botany. 15:69-78.

McPheron, B. A., D. C. Smith and S. H. Berlocher. 1988. Genetic differentiation between host races of Rhagoletis pomonella. Nature. 336:64-66.

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Mishler, B. D. 1985. The morphological, developmental and phylogenetic basis of species concepts in the bryophytes. Bryologist. 88:207-214.

Mishler, B. D. and M. J. Donoghue. 1982. Species concepts: a case for pluralism. Systematic Zoology. 31:491-503.

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Otte, E. and J. A. Endler (eds.). 1989. Speciation and its consequences. Sinauer Associates. Sunderland, MA.

Owenby, M. 1950. Natural hybridization and amphiploidy in the genus Tragopogon. Am. J. Bot. 37:487-499.

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Rabe, E. W. and C. H. Haufler. 1992. Incipient polyploid speciation in the maidenhair fern (Adiantum pedatum, adiantaceae)? American Journal of Botany. 79:701-707.

Rice, W. R. 1985. Disruptive selection on habitat preference and the evolution of reproductive isolation: an exploratory experiment. Evolution. 39:645-646.

Rice, W. R. and E. E. Hostert. 1993. Laboratory experiments on speciation: What have we learned in forty years? Evolution. 47:1637-1653.

Rice, W. R. and G. W. Salt. 1988. Speciation via disruptive selection on habitat preference: experimental evidence. The American Naturalist. 131:911-917.

Rice, W. R. and G. W. Salt. 1990. The evolution of reproductive isolation as a correlated character under sympatric conditions: experimental evidence. Evolution. 44:1140-1152.

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Smith, D. C. 1988. Heritable divergence of Rhagoletis pomonella host races by seasonal asynchrony. Nature. 336:66-67.

Soans, A. B., D. Pimentel and J. S. Soans. 1974. Evolution of reproductive isolation in allopatric and sympatric populations. The American Naturalist. 108:117-124.

Sokal, R. R. and T. J. Crovello. 1970. The biological species concept: a critical evaluation. The American Naturalist. 104:127-153.

Soltis, D. E. and P. S. Soltis. 1989. Allopolyploid speciation in Tragopogon: Insights from chloroplast DNA. American Journal of Botany. 76:1119-1124.

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Thompson, J. N. 1987. Symbiont-induced speciation. Biological Journal of the Linnean Society. 32:385-393.

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Weinberg, J. R., V. R. Starczak and P. Jora. 1992. Evidence for rapid speciation following a founder event in the laboratory. Evolution. 46:1214-1220.

Wood, A. M. and T. Leatham. 1992. The species concept in phytoplankton ecology. Journal of Phycology. 28:723-729.

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Like I said earlier someone that don't understand the difference between micro-adaptations and macro-evolution.

You get speciation through selecvtive breeding and isolation. Seciation is not macro-evolution buddy. You can't show any cross over from one kind to another. Your examples are merely different traits but within the same kind.

Please quit making a fool of yourself.

Well, it is clear that you ignored everything I posted in my response. That is not surprising since you've also ignored everything I posted previously about pretty much everything, including my post refuting your lies about macroevolution. You are the one being willfully ignorant here, so don't you dare call me the fool.

 

[Youwerecreated]

American Boxer Club: Genetic Diseases

Boxers have a number of health conditions attributable to either inbreeding, or other genetic abnormalities. For instance:

Hip Dysplasia, which is the number one cause of lameness in dogs. Hip dysplasia is thought to be genetically determined in part, but the mode of inheritance has not been established, since multiple genes and environmental factors such as nutrition and rapid growth may play a role in its development.

While some have questioned the frequency and severity of hip dysplasia in the boxer, many owners are now testing their dogs. The OFA currently reports the boxer as 67th in incidence of dysplasia (among breeds where over 100 dogs have been tested) with 2.9% of boxers testing excellent and 11.3% dysplasitic

Thyroid disease in the boxer occurs primarily as hypothyroidism, or impaired thyroid gland function with low thyroid hormone levels. It often develops slowly over several months or years. The animal's body, for as yet unknown reasons, forms antibodies against its own thyroid gland resulting in partial or complete destruction of the gland and the subsequent inability to produce adequate thyroid hormone.

Many breeds, including the boxer, seem to be genetically predisposed to hypothyroidism.
There is no evidence that this inherited disease is a result of lost genetic material. There is evidence that there is a mutation in the genes that regulate thyroglobulin autoantibodies.

One of the most common causes of sudden/unexpected death in boxers, both young and old, is a condition thought to be inherited and characterized by abnormal heart rhythms involving the ventricles (the main blood pumping chambers) of the heart (cardiomyopathy).

The definitive test for this disease would be a DNA test for the abnormal gene.

One of the most common heart defects occurring in dogs, boxers in particular, is aortic or subaortic stenosis. In most cases the stenosis, or narrowing, is produced by a fibrous ring of tissue below the aortic valve, hence the term "subaortic." The disease is inherited but its mode of transmission is not known at this time.

So, YWC, care to inform us of the source of your claims about boxers?

By the way, boxers are boxers because their traits have been selected for - that is, the traits they have have been selected in such a way that they are dominant traits instead of being recessive traits. Many other dogs have the traits of boxers, but have them recessively. The boxers have been selected for those specific traits. No information was lost. They still have the traits of many other dogs, and through breeding, they can be changed into some other breed, and in fact, by very carful selective breeding and a good testing program, it is believed by the American Boxer club that many of the inherited diseases boxers have can be bred out of them without loosing the traits that make them boxers.

Prove a boxer can produce an earlier ancestor it took to create the boxer. Then prove it was not due to cross breeding.

The notion that mixed-breed dogs are healthier than purebreds has some basis in fact, according to research published in the June 1 issue of the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association.

Study Shows Mutts Genetically Healthier

Prove a boxer can produce an earlier ancestor it took to create the boxer.

Well, first, you need 2 boxers and second, shut the fuck up already.
Damn you're a moron.

Yeah it sucks getting your ignorance exposed

 

[daws101]

here slap dick:" When reproducing you breed out genetic information you don't breed in genetic information. With all the populations and generations of flies that exp mutations whether occurring naturally or induced there has never been a new trait passed on to the group through mutations. The only way it happens is through selective breeding." bahahahahahahah!
justification and or rationalization in 5....4....3...2..1

The information has changed not that they have less genes you are a moron and should stop this discussion immediately.

does not "breed out" mean to eradicate undesirable traits/genes? . the moron here is you

 

[daws101]

Prove a boxer can produce an earlier ancestor it took to create the boxer. Then prove it was not due to cross breeding.

The notion that mixed-breed dogs are healthier than purebreds has some basis in fact, according to research published in the June 1 issue of the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association.

Study Shows Mutts Genetically Healthier

Prove a boxer can produce an earlier ancestor it took to create the boxer.

Well, first, you need 2 boxers and second, shut the fuck up already.
Damn you're a moron.

Yeah it sucks getting your ignorance exposed

really ?because Toddsterpatriot just exposed yours and you didn't even notice...

 

[orogenicman]

Well gee macro-evolution,did you not get it ?

How new genetic information is added to support the assumptions of mutations as a mechanism to add beneficial information.

I made myself clear the first time.

There is ample evidence for macro evolution. It's been presented to you on numerous occasions.

All it turned out to be was micro adaptations or speciation. You let me know when a Lion or Tiger is no longer a member of the Cat kind.

Dickweed, as has been pointed out to you on dozens of occasions, that is not what evolutions says or claims, nor is it how evolution works. If a lion gestated something that was not a cat, that would REFUTE evolution, not support it. You are presenting us with a false dilemma, and then daring us to refute it. Clue - IT IS A FALSE DILEMMA! And proof that you have no understanding of the theory. So your malcontent with regard to macroevolution is purely and simply willful ignorance. There is a lot of that going on in creationist circles. Why is that? Do you people have some abnormal gene the rest of us don't have? It must certainly be inbred/inherited. Congratulations/sympathies, as the case may be.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Prove a boxer can produce an earlier ancestor it took to create the boxer. Then prove it was not due to cross breeding.

The notion that mixed-breed dogs are healthier than purebreds has some basis in fact, according to research published in the June 1 issue of the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association.

Study Shows Mutts Genetically Healthier

Prove a boxer can produce an earlier ancestor it took to create the boxer.

Well, first, you need 2 boxers and second, shut the fuck up already.
Damn you're a moron.

Yeah it sucks getting your ignorance exposed

And yet, after your ignorance is exposed, you go and expose more.

I mean, shit, you've come up with what, a dozen reasons why evolution is impossible and they were all shot down. So now you're making more shit up.
What's the point? You're wrong.
Go read some science books and come back with some real info, instead of the bullshit you've got.

I mean, seriously, the 2nd Law?

 

[Youwerecreated]

The information has changed not that they have less genes you are a moron and should stop this discussion immediately.

does not "breed out" mean to eradicate undesirable traits/genes? . the moron here is you

Explain to me how other than an abnormality boxers only produce boxers unless they are cross bred ?

Do you understand what a recessive gene is ? Surely if the information was not lost it is in a recessive gene. Why wouldn't we have many examples of traits in the boxer from earlier breeds it took to form the breed ? it would just be a matter of time for two boxers to breed that had the same recessive gene.

You really are in over your head pumpkin.

 

[orogenicman]

Whoa, in evolution assumptions are made that can't be tested or observed the same as creation. Which assumptions and explanations better fit the evidence. I believe creationism better fits the evidence.

Natural processes do not just arise if so point it out to me.

Well, gee, your response is to make claims and then don't support them? Lame, dude. Lame. What unsupported assumptions does evolution make that cannot be tested or observed? Be specific.

Well gee macro-evolution,did you not get it ?

How new genetic information is added to support the assumptions of mutations as a mechanism to add beneficial information.

I made myself clear the first time.

You have made a fool out of yourself repeatedly including the first time you brought it up.

Answer this: How does down's syndrome (a doubling of chromosome 21) occur? People with Down's Syndrome have MORE genetic information than you or I (much more in your case), and yet have serious developmental problems. Explain why more genetic material (not less) leads to genetic disease, and not higher development. Explain why chimpanzees have more genetic material (48 chromosomes, as opposed to our 46) than Homo Sapiens, and yet we (allegedly) are the more advanced species.

Bump. Ahem.

 

[Youwerecreated]

lol wow,must have hit a nerve.

That is ok boys and girls there will be a tomorrow,maybe.

 

[daws101]

does not "breed out" mean to eradicate undesirable traits/genes? . the moron here is you

Explain to me how other than an abnormality boxers only produce boxers unless they are cross bred ?

Do you understand what a recessive gene is ? Surely if the information was not lost it is in a recessive gene. Why wouldn't we have many examples of traits in the boxer from earlier breeds it took to form the breed ? it would just be a matter of time for two boxers to breed that had the same recessive gene.

You really are in over your head pumpkin.

you wish!
as to recessive traits they do appear every so often...my mom was a breeder and anytime a recessive trait appeared the pup or pups would be killed to prevent what you just mentioned.

 

[daws101]

lol wow,must have hit a nerve.

That is ok boys and girls there will be a tomorrow,maybe.

wrong! you just wish you did...must be the overinflated self congratulatory gene mutation creeping back.

 

[orogenicman]

Are you completely clueless ? unless you cross breed a boxer you will only wind up with boxers. do yourself a favor and please read up on Gregor Mendel since you clearly don't understand basic genetics that most breeders understand

American Boxer Club: Genetic Diseases

Boxers have a number of health conditions attributable to either inbreeding, or other genetic abnormalities. For instance:

Hip Dysplasia, which is the number one cause of lameness in dogs. Hip dysplasia is thought to be genetically determined in part, but the mode of inheritance has not been established, since multiple genes and environmental factors such as nutrition and rapid growth may play a role in its development.

While some have questioned the frequency and severity of hip dysplasia in the boxer, many owners are now testing their dogs. The OFA currently reports the boxer as 67th in incidence of dysplasia (among breeds where over 100 dogs have been tested) with 2.9% of boxers testing excellent and 11.3% dysplasitic

Thyroid disease in the boxer occurs primarily as hypothyroidism, or impaired thyroid gland function with low thyroid hormone levels. It often develops slowly over several months or years. The animal's body, for as yet unknown reasons, forms antibodies against its own thyroid gland resulting in partial or complete destruction of the gland and the subsequent inability to produce adequate thyroid hormone.

Many breeds, including the boxer, seem to be genetically predisposed to hypothyroidism.
There is no evidence that this inherited disease is a result of lost genetic material. There is evidence that there is a mutation in the genes that regulate thyroglobulin autoantibodies.

One of the most common causes of sudden/unexpected death in boxers, both young and old, is a condition thought to be inherited and characterized by abnormal heart rhythms involving the ventricles (the main blood pumping chambers) of the heart (cardiomyopathy).

The definitive test for this disease would be a DNA test for the abnormal gene.

One of the most common heart defects occurring in dogs, boxers in particular, is aortic or subaortic stenosis. In most cases the stenosis, or narrowing, is produced by a fibrous ring of tissue below the aortic valve, hence the term "subaortic." The disease is inherited but its mode of transmission is not known at this time.

So, YWC, care to inform us of the source of your claims about boxers?

By the way, boxers are boxers because their traits have been selected for - that is, the traits they have have been selected in such a way that they are dominant traits instead of being recessive traits. Many other dogs have the traits of boxers, but have them recessively. The boxers have been selected for those specific traits. No information was lost. They still have the traits of many other dogs, and through breeding, they can be changed into some other breed, and in fact, by very carful selective breeding and a good testing program, it is believed by the American Boxer club that many of the inherited diseases boxers have can be bred out of them without loosing the traits that make them boxers.

Prove a boxer can produce an earlier ancestor it took to create the boxer. Then prove it was not due to cross breeding.

All pure breeds are the result of inbreeding. That inbreeding does NOT result in a loss of genetic material. It results in an isolation of genetic material. And when genomes become isolated, previously recessive traits can become dominant. We see this in every pure bred animal. Even so, the original breeds are still present in the genetic makeup of the subsequent breeds, to the extent that genetic drift has not altered the genetic makeup of the animal's genome forever, which, of course is a distinct possibility. Having said that, the real difference is what genes are dominant and what breeds are recessive. Since we know virtually nothing about the genetic make up of the original breeds that were used to create the boxer, it will be difficult if not impossible to recreate those original breeds. The only trick that a breeder could use would be to back breed his stock, but that would likely take decades and many generations. But it can be done. The genetics are there.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Well, gee, your response is to make claims and then don't support them? Lame, dude. Lame. What unsupported assumptions does evolution make that cannot be tested or observed? Be specific.

Well gee macro-evolution,did you not get it ?

How new genetic information is added to support the assumptions of mutations as a mechanism to add beneficial information.

I made myself clear the first time.

You have made a fool out of yourself repeatedly including the first time you brought it up.

Answer this: How does down's syndrome (a doubling of chromosome 21) occur? People with Down's Syndrome have MORE genetic information than you or I (much more in your case), and yet have serious developmental problems. Explain why more genetic material (not less) leads to genetic disease, and not higher development. Explain why chimpanzees have more genetic material (48 chromosomes, as opposed to our 46) than Homo Sapiens, and yet we (allegedly) are the more advanced species.

Let's further expose your ignorance.

The human Y chromosome has 78 genes and the chimp Y chromosome has 37.

I am gonna show up ape to human evolution is impossible through genetics.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Explain to me how other than an abnormality boxers only produce boxers unless they are cross bred ?

Do you understand what a recessive gene is ? Surely if the information was not lost it is in a recessive gene. Why wouldn't we have many examples of traits in the boxer from earlier breeds it took to form the breed ? it would just be a matter of time for two boxers to breed that had the same recessive gene.

You really are in over your head pumpkin.

you wish!
as to recessive traits they do appear every so often...my mom was a breeder and anytime a recessive trait appeared the pup or pups would be killed to prevent what you just mentioned.

Making shit up now ? I to breed horses and boxers and have never seen what you just made up. maybe your mother is breeding to close.

 

[orogenicman]

does not "breed out" mean to eradicate undesirable traits/genes? . the moron here is you

Explain to me how other than an abnormality boxers only produce boxers unless they are cross bred ?

Because their breeders are only interested in producing boxers. Duh.

Do you understand what a recessive gene is ? Surely if the information was not lost it is in a recessive gene. Why wouldn't we have many examples of traits in the boxer from earlier breeds it took to form the breed ? it would just be a matter of time for two boxers to breed that had the same recessive gene.

Not if the breeder is only interested in producing boxers. Guess what happens to those animals that don't meet the standard. They get pulled out of the gene pool, isolating it further.

 

[orogenicman]

Well gee macro-evolution,did you not get it ?

How new genetic information is added to support the assumptions of mutations as a mechanism to add beneficial information.

I made myself clear the first time.

You have made a fool out of yourself repeatedly including the first time you brought it up.

Answer this: How does down's syndrome (a doubling of chromosome 21) occur? People with Down's Syndrome have MORE genetic information than you or I (much more in your case), and yet have serious developmental problems. Explain why more genetic material (not less) leads to genetic disease, and not higher development. Explain why chimpanzees have more genetic material (48 chromosomes, as opposed to our 46) than Homo Sapiens, and yet we (allegedly) are the more advanced species.

Let's further expose your ignorance.

The human Y chromosome has 78 genes and the chimp Y chromosome has 37.

I am gonna show up ape to human evolution is impossible through genetics.

Moving the goal post. Answer my queries, and stop trying to by pass them.

By the way, before you can show that ape to human genetics is not possible, you have to first demonstrate that humans aren't apes to begin with. (ahem, chuckle, chuckle), good luck with that.

 

[Youwerecreated]

You have made a fool out of yourself repeatedly including the first time you brought it up.

Answer this: How does down's syndrome (a doubling of chromosome 21) occur? People with Down's Syndrome have MORE genetic information than you or I (much more in your case), and yet have serious developmental problems. Explain why more genetic material (not less) leads to genetic disease, and not higher development. Explain why chimpanzees have more genetic material (48 chromosomes, as opposed to our 46) than Homo Sapiens, and yet we (allegedly) are the more advanced species.

Let's further expose your ignorance.

The human Y chromosome has 78 genes and the chimp Y chromosome has 37.

I am gonna show up ape to human evolution is impossible through genetics.

Moving the goal post. Answer my queries, and stop trying to by pass them.

By the way, before you can show that ape to human genetics is not possible, you have to first demonstrate that humans aren't apes to begin with. (ahem, chuckle, chuckle), good luck with that.

I just exposed your erroneous claim.

It's not up to me to prove humans are not apes, the science community made the claim. I am just gonna show why it's not possible in the first place

 

[Youwerecreated]

Explain to me how other than an abnormality boxers only produce boxers unless they are cross bred ?

Because their breeders are only interested in producing boxers. Duh.

Do you understand what a recessive gene is ? Surely if the information was not lost it is in a recessive gene. Why wouldn't we have many examples of traits in the boxer from earlier breeds it took to form the breed ? it would just be a matter of time for two boxers to breed that had the same recessive gene.

Not if the breeder is only interested in producing boxers. Guess what happens to those animals that don't meet the standard. They get pulled out of the gene pool, isolating it further.

Well of course they want boxers lol and they know they will get them by breeding two parents of the same breed. Duh.

What part of this do you not understand. Sure you have some that are not show quality so of course they don't breed them lol. Hey greyhound breeders and race horse breeders breed animals that had successful racing careers they are not gonna breed slow horses and greyhounds that didn't do well.

You stepped in it and continue this stupid attempt at hell I don't even know what your argument is anymore.

Tomorrow I will show you why so many believe in this fairytale and not reality.