Why Libertarianism Is So Dangerous...

[TakeAStepBack]

I dont believe building roads is a numerated power. If under interstate commerce, you feel these measures are there "required task" then anything jammed in there over the last 200 years is good to go too.

Anyway, the states were supposed to fund the federal government, not the citizens fund both. Whatever a state, or the fed can not perform because of its lack of "funds", then the private sector is to step in where the service faces actual failure, instead of just bleeding the public of more money.

 

[RKMBrown]

First off, fella, I never pretended "to be the arbiter of all libertarian thought". I'm speaking solely on my own behalf. Second, the only tax that does not come with the threat of force are user taxes. Where one can choose to not participate in that particular sector of commerce. Such as a gas tax. Which is the same as a user fee. As said before regarding user fees for the "required tasks" of government.

Wrong again. The threat of force is not a necessary element of any type of tax. Further any user tax could also be deemed mandatory and carry a threat of force. So again, you are confusing, either purposefully, or without care or any reasoned thought the concepts of taxation with the threat of force, and the acts of theft by self appointed tyrants.

Any type of tax could be modified to allow for folks to opt in or out.

Then it would no longer be a tax.

Let me know when you find this voluntary tax. I'd love to hear all about it.

All contracts in which two parties have to agree are voluntary. Have you really never heard of a contract? If you opt out you don't gain the benefit. For example, SS/Medicare opt out no benefit, opt in and pay the tax for the benefit. Same with welfare, opt out and your family can't receive any welfare benefits.

Additionally, use taxes like sales taxes are voluntary in so far as you don't have to purchase the item. Still further you can barter and trade for items and you can make items yourself.

Are you really so ignorant and blind so as to be incapable of deriving opt in/out mechanisms? From your posts I find this plausible if not hard to believe.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

First, there is no contract between any party regarding taxation. It is required. They're are not asking.

Second, you're using an example that is false. You dont get to opt out of welfare, SS or medicare. So you have no clear example of this so called voluntary tax in this regard.

I've already covered that user taxes (not sales tax, which is a tax on commencing in commerce) are a way that the government can collect without the application being compulsory (arguable). A sales tax is not a use tax. It's a tax on "the use" of volition to exchange peacefully in commerce. It's an aggressive act and again, no one is asking.

Yes we may go back several thousand years to the barter system (assuming you have a network to trade within since it is an outdated mode of exchange).

Otherwise, you're just insulting me because you lack a clear example or understanding of taxation and why it is mostly, if not fully, compulsory.

 

[bripat9643]

First, there is no contract between any party regarding taxation. It is required. They're are not asking.

Second, you're using an example that is false. You dont get to opt out of welfare, SS or medicare. So you have no clear example of this so called voluntary tax in this regard.

I've already covered that user taxes (not sales tax, which is a tax on commencing in commerce) are a way that the government can collect without the application being compulsory (arguable). A sales tax is not a use tax. It's a tax on "the use" of volition to exchange peacefully in commerce. It's an aggressive act and again, no one is asking.

Yes we may go back several thousand years to the barter system (assuming you have a network to trade within since it is an outdated mode of exchange).

Otherwise, you're just insulting me because you lack a clear example or understanding of taxation and why it is mostly, if not fully, compulsory.

All taxes are compulsory. The idea the use taxes are voluntary doesn't pass the laugh test. Does anyone really imagine they can do without gasoline in this day and age? You can probably do without alcohol, but why should you have to? Whenever a third party determines what you can consume or not consume, it isn't voluntary.

 

[Londoner]

Because it chooses the market over conservative values where they differ.

Of course shrewd Republicans know how to game this.

For instance

The market wants open borders so that labor and raw material and Capital can flow more easily.

But conservatives, on the other hand, want closed orders to protect culture and tradition.

So the GOP quietly passes open border policies in order to give their corporate donors ultra-cheap labor. Then they pay talk radio to agitate their moronic voters over all the illegals.

Win-win.

Oh, forgot to mention that Ronald Reagan passed the largest amnesty bill in this country's history. You think Glenn Beck ever talks about that? Of course not. His audience is none the wiser. Listen, you can't fault Glenn Beck; he Is the God of morons who don't know history.

 

[RKMBrown]

First, there is no contract between any party regarding taxation. It is required. They're are not asking.

Second, you're using an example that is false. You dont get to opt out of welfare, SS or medicare. So you have no clear example of this so called voluntary tax in this regard.

I've already covered that user taxes (not sales tax, which is a tax on commencing in commerce) are a way that the government can collect without the application being compulsory (arguable). A sales tax is not a use tax. It's a tax on "the use" of volition to exchange peacefully in commerce. It's an aggressive act and again, no one is asking.

Yes we may go back several thousand years to the barter system (assuming you have a network to trade within since it is an outdated mode of exchange).

Otherwise, you're just insulting me because you lack a clear example or understanding of taxation and why it is mostly, if not fully, compulsory.

>>> First, there is no contract between any party regarding taxation. It is required. They're are not asking.

Hello!!! McFly!!! Hello.. Show me the tenet that all taxation must be sans a contract between the two parties. If there was a contract it would be VOLUNTARY. Our current income tax system is broken BECAUSE IT'S NOT A CONTRACT in which the parties have a choice. You can't be this dense.

>>> Second, you're using an example that is false. You dont get to opt out of welfare, SS or medicare. So you have no clear example of this so called voluntary tax in this regard.

You can't be this stupid. Of course my point is that IF YOU COULD OPT OUT THE PROBLEM WOULD GO AWAY.

>>> A sales tax is not a use tax. It's a tax on "the use" of volition to exchange peacefully in commerce.

WOW it's not a use tax is a tax on the use... ???

>>> It's an aggressive act and again, no one is asking.

That's a lie, even current state sales taxes are set locally by local vote and you are free to move about the country.

>>> Yes we may go back several thousand years to the barter system (assuming you have a network to trade within since it is an outdated mode of exchange).

Huh? PEOPLE BARTER nearly every moment of every day. Do you pay your wife in cash for doing the dishes? For sex? Have you NEVER DONE A FAVOR OR RECEIVED OR RECIPROCATED A FAVOR? WOW

>>> it is mostly, if not fully, compulsory.

Yeah, well finally you state something that is true. And on this we can agree. Most of the current taxation at the federal level is mostly if not fully compulsory. My point, that you continue to ignore, is that taxation isn't the problem it's our current system of compulsory taxation.

 

[paulitician]

Governments are really just Gangs who rule their bits of turf by way of force. Once you come to realize this, you begin to see things in a refreshingly enlightening way.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

First off, fella, I never pretended "to be the arbiter of all libertarian thought". I'm speaking solely on my own behalf. Second, the only tax that does not come with the threat of force are user taxes. Where one can choose to not participate in that particular sector of commerce. Such as a gas tax. Which is the same as a user fee. As said before regarding user fees for the "required tasks" of government.

Wrong again. The threat of force is not a necessary element of any type of tax. Further any user tax could also be deemed mandatory and carry a threat of force. So again, you are confusing, either purposefully, or without care or any reasoned thought the concepts of taxation with the threat of force, and the acts of theft by self appointed tyrants.

Any type of tax could be modified to allow for folks to opt in or out.

Then it would no longer be a tax.

Let me know when you find this voluntary tax. I'd love to hear all about it.

According to Harry Reid the income tax is voluntary. Apparently Irwin Schiff arrested and incarcerated himself.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

First, there is no contract between any party regarding taxation. It is required. They're are not asking.

Second, you're using an example that is false. You dont get to opt out of welfare, SS or medicare. So you have no clear example of this so called voluntary tax in this regard.

I've already covered that user taxes (not sales tax, which is a tax on commencing in commerce) are a way that the government can collect without the application being compulsory (arguable). A sales tax is not a use tax. It's a tax on "the use" of volition to exchange peacefully in commerce. It's an aggressive act and again, no one is asking.

Yes we may go back several thousand years to the barter system (assuming you have a network to trade within since it is an outdated mode of exchange).

Otherwise, you're just insulting me because you lack a clear example or understanding of taxation and why it is mostly, if not fully, compulsory.

>>> First, there is no contract between any party regarding taxation. It is required. They're are not asking.

Hello!!! McFly!!! Hello.. Show me the tenet that all taxation must be sans a contract between the two parties.
Go look up the definition of tax.

If there was a contract it would be VOLUNTARY. Our current income tax system is broken BECAUSE IT'S NOT A CONTRACT in which the parties have a choice. You can't be this dense.

And as I said, it would then be a contract, not a tax, doofus.

>>> Second, you're using an example that is false. You dont get to opt out of welfare, SS or medicare. So you have no clear example of this so called voluntary tax in this regard.

You can't be this stupid. Of course my point is that IF YOU COULD OPT OUT THE PROBLEM WOULD GO AWAY.

Yeah, and that hasn't happened. And never will. Hence the failed example.

>>> A sales tax is not a use tax. It's a tax on "the use" of volition to exchange peacefully in commerce.

WOW it's not a use tax is a tax on the use... ???


Right. The use of your volition is the tax. It's aggressive.

>>> It's an aggressive act and again, no one is asking.

That's a lie, even current state sales taxes are set locally by local vote and you are free to move about the country.

Now comes the if you dont like it move argument. it's still a tax, dumbie.

>>> Yes we may go back several thousand years to the barter system (assuming you have a network to trade within since it is an outdated mode of exchange).

Huh? PEOPLE BARTER nearly every moment of every day. Do you pay your wife in cash for doing the dishes? For sex? Have you NEVER DONE A FAVOR OR RECEIVED OR RECIPROCATED A FAVOR? WOW

Go show up at the local gas station with your turnips in exchange for gas. You're really reaching, dipshit.

>>> it is mostly, if not fully, compulsory.

Yeah, well finally you state something that is true. And on this we can agree. Most of the current taxation at the federal level is mostly if not fully compulsory. My point, that you continue to ignore, is that taxation isn't the problem it's our current system of compulsory taxation.

Holy shit.

 

[RKMBrown]

Hello!!! McFly!!! Hello.. Show me the tenet that all taxation must be sans a contract between the two parties.
Go look up the definition of tax.

Tax noun: 1a : a charge usually of money imposed by authority on persons or property for public purposes.

Show me where that states that ALL TAXES FROM HERE TO THE END OF TIME MUST BE COMPULSORY.

What the hell is wrong with you? Are you completely incapable of independent thought?

 

[TakeAStepBack]

tax - definition of tax by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

tax (tks)
n.
1. A contribution for the support of a government required of persons, groups, or businesses within the domain of that government.
2. A fee or dues levied on the members of an organization to meet its expenses.
3. A burdensome or excessive demand; a strain.
tr.v. taxed, tax·ing, tax·es
1. To place a tax on (income, property, or goods).
2. To exact a tax from.
3. Law To assess (court costs, for example).
4. To make difficult or excessive demands upon: a boss who taxed everyone's patience.
5. To make a charge against; accuse: He was taxed with failure to appear on the day appointed.



If the tax is voluntary in that you agreed to it without being imposed upon with the use of force and violence it is no longer a fucking tax, its a contract. You fucking simpleton.

 

[RKMBrown]

Voluntary taxation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note the part about: The theory is a part of Objectivist politics and many libertarian ideologies.

 

[RKMBrown]

tax - definition of tax by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

tax (tks)
n.
1. A contribution for the support of a government required of persons, groups, or businesses within the domain of that government.
2. A fee or dues levied on the members of an organization to meet its expenses.
3. A burdensome or excessive demand; a strain.
tr.v. taxed, tax·ing, tax·es
1. To place a tax on (income, property, or goods).
2. To exact a tax from.
3. Law To assess (court costs, for example).
4. To make difficult or excessive demands upon: a boss who taxed everyone's patience.
5. To make a charge against; accuse: He was taxed with failure to appear on the day appointed.



If the tax is voluntary in that you agreed to it without being imposed upon with the use of force and violence it is no longer a fucking tax, its a contract. You fucking simpleton.

Just because you can shop for a definition that has a term in it for one of the many definitions that does not mean that ALL TAXES FOR ALL TIME MUST BE REQUIRED YOU IDIOT. You know NOTHING OF LIBERTARIAN THOUGHT. You are a BLIND simpleton who merely wishes to scream that the sky is falling and there's no solution because you read a definition of the word tax and that definition say taxes must be required. Read up about voluntary tax systems and then come back to the class when you have a clue.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

tax - definition of tax by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

tax (tks)
n.
1. A contribution for the support of a government required of persons, groups, or businesses within the domain of that government.
2. A fee or dues levied on the members of an organization to meet its expenses.
3. A burdensome or excessive demand; a strain.
tr.v. taxed, tax·ing, tax·es
1. To place a tax on (income, property, or goods).
2. To exact a tax from.
3. Law To assess (court costs, for example).
4. To make difficult or excessive demands upon: a boss who taxed everyone's patience.
5. To make a charge against; accuse: He was taxed with failure to appear on the day appointed.



If the tax is voluntary in that you agreed to it without being imposed upon with the use of force and violence it is no longer a fucking tax, its a contract. You fucking simpleton.

Just because you can shop for a definition that has a term in it for one of the many definitions that does not mean that ALL TAXES FOR ALL TIME MUST BE REQUIRED YOU IDIOT. You know NOTHING OF LIBERTARIAN THOUGHT. You are a BLIND simpleton who merely wishes to scream that the sky is falling and there's no solution because you read a definition of the word tax and that definition say taxes must be required. Read up about voluntary tax systems and then come back to the class when you have a clue.

Tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A tax (from the Latin taxo; "rate") is a financial charge or other levy imposed upon a taxpayer (an individual or legal entity) by a state or the functional equivalent of a state such that failure to pay is punishable by law.

https://www.google.com/search?q=tax...or.r_qf.&fp=6abbf1ee7d79dff7&biw=1572&bih=752
tax
/taks/
Noun
A compulsory contribution to state revenue, levied by the government on workers' income and business profits or added to the cost of...
Verb
Impose a tax on (someone or something): "hardware and software is taxed at 7.5 percent".
Synonyms
noun. duty - impost - imposition - scot - tribute - charge
verb. assess - rate


Tax | Define Tax at Dictionary.com

tax [taks] Show IPA
noun
1.
a sum of money demanded by a government for its support or for specific facilities or services, levied upon incomes, property, sales, etc.
2.
a burdensome charge, obligation, duty, or demand.
verb (used with object)
3.
a.
to demand a tax from (a person, business, etc.).
b.
to demand a tax in consideration of the possession or occurrence of (income, goods, sales, etc.), usually in proportion to the value of money involved.
4.
to lay a burden on; make serious demands on: to tax one's resources.
5.
to take to task; censure; reprove; accuse: to tax one with laziness.
6.
Informal. to charge: What did he tax you for that?
7.
Archaic. to estimate or determine the amount or value of.


Tax - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

: to assess or determine judicially the amount of (costs in a court action)
2
: to levy a tax on
3
obsolete : to enter (a name) in a list <there went out a decree&#8230;that all the world should be taxed &#8212; Luke 2:1(Authorized Version)>
4
: charge, accuse <taxed him with neglect of duty>; also : censure
5
: to make onerous and rigorous demands on <the job taxed her strength>

Taxes Definition | Investopedia

Definition of 'Taxes'
An involuntary fee levied on corporations or individuals that is enforced by a level of government in order to finance government activities.




Feel better? Voluntary tax is a play on words and contradictory.


Voluntary taxation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Voluntary taxation is a theory that states that taxation should be a voluntary act. Under the theory, people should have the option to pay taxes instead being forced to pay taxes by their government. Under this theory, people would control how much they pay and where they spend it. The theory is a part of Objectivist politics and many libertarian ideologies. Proponents of some studies assert that individuals will give to government, paying voluntary taxes to support specific functions. Donations average 22 percent of an endowment to government, and 27 percent to private nonprofits, and are influenced by their cause, level, and perceptions of effectiveness and efficiency.[1]
State lotteries are an example of a voluntary taxation system.[2]

Now if you would for the class, dullard. Point out a voluntary tax to us in use. Give us one example from the US.

 

[RKMBrown]

Some examples were provided in the link I gave you. Rand has many more. Your cut and paste from websters was for the verb not the noun. Try again.

Examples include but are not limited to, government sales, lottery sales, interstate charges, voluntary payments, agreements signed that one will willingly pay a tax given some later compensation etc.. If you'd like I could write up an agreement for you to sign.

 

[Oddball]

Hello!!! McFly!!! Hello.. Show me the tenet that all taxation must be sans a contract between the two parties.
Go look up the definition of tax.

Tax noun: 1a : a charge usually of money imposed by authority on persons or property for public purposes.

Show me where that states that ALL TAXES FROM HERE TO THE END OF TIME MUST BE COMPULSORY.

What the hell is wrong with you? Are you completely incapable of independent thought?

Tell us when anyone un-volunteered to pay a modernly applied tax and got away with it.

Please reference and link to all relevant and applicable legal points, authorities and citations.

Go..............

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Voluntary taxation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note the part about: The theory is a part of Objectivist politics and many libertarian ideologies.

Some examples were provided in the link I gave you. Rand has many more. Your cut and paste from websters was for the verb not the noun. Try again.

Example [edit]

Here is an example of how a voluntary taxation system could function.
A state would distribute tax forms that could be filled out by recipients. The forms would describe options which the recipients could designate preferences as to how the recipient would like his or her money spent. For example, there could be a section for military spending, or separate sections for defense in general and specific conflicts in particular. There would also be sections to be for elected officials (who would still be necessary to carry out the wishes of the people) and also sections for charities.
The form would be divided into more and more sections so that people could specify their decisions. The entire form would be under the category of general. Then there could be a section for education and then even further for elementary school education. People could choose which sections they wanted and contribute to those sections. For example they could contribute different amounts to each section of education or to the section of education in general, allowing their elected officials to decide the best way to allocate the money.

Class dismissed.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Lysander Spooner stated, "It is true that the theory of our Constitution is, that all taxes are paid voluntarily; that our government is a mutual insurance company, voluntarily entered into by the people with each other; that each man makes a free and purely voluntary contract with all others who are parties to the Constitution, to pay so much money for so much protection, the same as he does with any other insurance company; and that he is just as free not to be protected, and not to pay tax, as he is to pay a tax, and be protected. But this theory of our government is wholly different from the practical fact. The fact is that the government, like a highwayman, says to a man: “Your money, or your life.” And many, if not most, taxes are paid under the compulsion of that threat. The government does not, indeed, waylay a man in a lonely place, spring upon him from the roadside, and, holding a pistol to his head, proceed to rifle his pockets. But the robbery is none the less a robbery on that account; and it is far more dastardly and shameful. "[4]

from that link

 

[RKMBrown]

Hello!!! McFly!!! Hello.. Show me the tenet that all taxation must be sans a contract between the two parties.
Go look up the definition of tax.

Tax noun: 1a : a charge usually of money imposed by authority on persons or property for public purposes.

Show me where that states that ALL TAXES FROM HERE TO THE END OF TIME MUST BE COMPULSORY.

What the hell is wrong with you? Are you completely incapable of independent thought?

Tell us when anyone un-volunteered to pay a modernly applied tax and got away with it.

Please reference and link to all relevant and applicable legal points, authorities and citations.

Go..............

Over half the country pays no federal income tax. All legal like. How? They stop working, reduce the amount they are working, and / or stop reporting income and / or arrange to be paid under the table or through bartering. There is no law against you joining a commune where folks work for each other and exchange no greenbacks. Another example is where folks work for a discount. They get more product for zero bucks no income to report but they get the product. Similar to coupling. Working for benefits is an interesting way to legally get out of paying income tax.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Are they safe in their income and possessions if caught getting paid under the table? Or through bartering even? Or not report their income?

You have lost this argument, sir.

Good day.