Why ‘religious freedom’ laws are doomed

[TemplarKormac]

Actually, what scares us is a 2000 year history of murder, misogyny, homophobia, and child abuse to please an imaginary sky man. Which is why the Founders realized that separation of Church and State was important.

Hey, is there something in that teaching about "getting off your ass and getting a job"?

Anyway, where was I? The whole "religious freedom" argument is just a lame excuse to rationalize bad behavior.

If Hobby Lobby was really serious about hating abortion, they wouldn't be trying to keep their employees from getting birth control, they'd be pulling all their business from China, where they force women to have abortion. But Hobby Lobby gets 93% of their product from China.

Similiarly, the haters don't refuse to serve weddings where the couple "live together in sin", because that would cut their business by 60%. It's just a last gasp of their homophobia.

Yawn.

You can avoid replying all you want, but most of what he said is true. These businesses will never put their money where their mouth is. It would hurt their bottom line. A bottom line Christ called sinful, I might add.

Aaron, when he stops dissing my faith, calling my God an "imaginary sky man" I will dignify him with an intelligent response. It isn't homophobia to act on your faith. It's intolerant to keep me from doing it, so to speak.

Also, should you care to closely read his statements, such as this one:

If Hobby Lobby was really serious about hating abortion, they wouldn't be trying to keep their employees from getting birth control, they'd be pulling all their business from China, where they force women to have abortion.

The first half is a contradiction. The latter half is a tragedy, given that it costs too much to run a large business completely inside the US anymore. So, what would you do to keep your business running? Take a bath in a fire?

And the irony of this statement:

Similiarly, the haters don't refuse to serve weddings where the couple "live together in sin", because that would cut their business by 60%. It's just a last gasp of their homophobia

Is that it's not okay to act on your faith. It's not okay to run your business and keep the faith too. Should I force a gay man to marry a woman, I would be guilty of violating his rights and beliefs, would I not? How can we be haters when we're the ones standing in the face of constant belittlement and ridicule from people who claim to be tolerant of individual beliefs? How? Their beliefs are being welcomed with open arms, while ours are slowly being driven out of sight, for want of your "equality." Equality means there's room for both faith and secularism.

What you want is totally one sided.

 

[aaronleland]

Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's.

Yeah, about that. Business owners can't render unto God's which is God's. They aren't allowed. They can't serve him freely without doing something he teaches against. Now what?

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

-1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God's holy people.

Jude 1:3

 

[Bumberclyde]

Religious freedom to discriminate against gays and anyone else you don't like? Is that what Jesus would have done?

 

[The T]

Religious freedom to discriminate against gays and anyone else you don't like? Is that what Jesus would have done?

Everyone discriminates. If someone knocks on your door, do you determine who it is knocking, or do you just yell c'mon in?

 

[Bumberclyde]

Religious freedom to discriminate against gays and anyone else you don't like? Is that what Jesus would have done?

Everyone discriminates. If someone knocks on your door, do you determine who it is knocking, or do you just yell c'mon in?

So you're saying that Jesus hated gays as much as you do?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Jesus discriminated against sinfulness, should he be seen as a hypocrite, or a man fighting for righteousness?

I'd prefer the latter.

 

[The T]

Religious freedom to discriminate against gays and anyone else you don't like? Is that what Jesus would have done?

Everyone discriminates. If someone knocks on your door, do you determine who it is knocking, or do you just yell c'mon in?

So you're saying that Jesus hated gays as much as you do?

Nice try. FAIL.

 

[aaronleland]

Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's.

Yeah, about that. Business owners can't render unto God's which is God's. They aren't allowed. They can't serve him freely without doing something he teaches against. Now what?

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

-1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God's holy people.

Jude 1:3

Amazing how rightwingers care so much about the homosexuals, but not so much about the greedy.

 

[The T]

Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's.

Yeah, about that. Business owners can't render unto God's which is God's. They aren't allowed. They can't serve him freely without doing something he teaches against. Now what?

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God's holy people.

Jude 1:3

Amazing how rightwingers care so much about the homosexuals, but not so much about the greedy.

You mean like greedy politicians whose sole aim is to control YOU and how you live your life?

 

[aaronleland]

Yeah, about that. Business owners can't render unto God's which is God's. They aren't allowed. They can't serve him freely without doing something he teaches against. Now what?

Amazing how rightwingers care so much about the homosexuals, but not so much about the greedy.

You mean like greedy politicians whose sole aim is to control YOU and how you live your life?

Exactly. Funded by the greedy corporations rightwingers hold in such high regard.

 

[Spiderman]

If some idiot claim "deeply held religious beliefs" as a reason for doing anything all that has to be done is to prove that that guy does not live 100% by his religious beliefs to invalidate his reasons.

And that is easy to do because no one lives 100% by any religious text.

 

[JoeB131]

Aaron, when he stops dissing my faith, calling my God an "imaginary sky man" I will dignify him with an intelligent response. It isn't homophobia to act on your faith. It's intolerant to keep me from doing it, so to speak.

Guy, if you were serious about acting on your faith, you'd be going out murdering gay people like the Bible says you should. Clearly, the law is keeping you from murdering them. In short, you like your freedom more than you love your imaginary sky man.

So if you like keeping your business (not that you would ever have a business), bake the fucking cake and shut the fuck up about it. Your imaginary Sky man will understand.

Also, should you care to closely read his statements, such as this one:

If Hobby Lobby was really serious about hating abortion, they wouldn't be trying to keep their employees from getting birth control, they'd be pulling all their business from China, where they force women to have abortion.

The first half is a contradiction. The latter half is a tragedy, given that it costs too much to run a large business completely inside the US anymore. So, what would you do to keep your business running? Take a bath in a fire?

Well, we are talking about a firmly held belief, aren't we? China has performed 300 MILLION abortions since the "one child" policy was instituted. A lot of those were not voluntary. If you believe, like the owners of Hobby Lobby do, that zygotes are people, then China is worse than Nazi Germany.

BUt Hobby Lobby likes making money selling cheap shit and they don't care about the people who put it together or their fetuses... In short, they are putting their greed above the desires of their Imaginary Sky Man.

And the irony of this statement:

Similiarly, the haters don't refuse to serve weddings where the couple "live together in sin", because that would cut their business by 60%. It's just a last gasp of their homophobia

Is that it's not okay to act on your faith. It's not okay to run your business and keep the faith too. Should I force a gay man to marry a woman, I would be guilty of violating his rights and beliefs, would I not? How can we be haters when we're the ones standing in the face of constant belittlement and ridicule from people who claim to be tolerant of individual beliefs? How? Their beliefs are being welcomed with open arms, while ours are slowly being driven out of sight, for want of your "equality." Equality means there's room for both faith and secularism.

What you want is totally one sided.

No, what we want is for you guys not to try to impose your morality on the rest of us.

If you are running a business, you have to make it available to everyone. Period. "We don't serve your kind here" would be unacceptable if we were talking about blacks or Jews, and it is equally unacceptable if it applies to gays.

But the point I was trying to make is that your Imaginary Sky Man thinks it's wrong for people to live together and have sex outside the bounds of marriage. Heck, it calls for stoning women who are not virgins on their wedding nights.

Today, 60% of couples live together before marriage. And actually, that's kind of a good thing, if you are incompatable, best to find that out before your families lay out ten large on an expensive party. But I assure you that the guys who live in mortal terror of putting two plastic dudes on top of a wedding cake aren't refusing to provide wedding services to those who aren't virgins on their wedding nights.

In short, it's a "selective" reading of the bible to rationalize a bigotry. Either follow ALL the rules at all times, or you are just using them to rationalize your bad behavior.

 

[JoeB131]

Jesus discriminated against sinfulness, should he be seen as a hypocrite, or a man fighting for righteousness?

I'd prefer the latter.

Actually, Jesus was a literary device invented by Saul of Tarses...

It's kind of hard to call Jesus a "hypocrite" when so many of the accounts of him are contradictory...

 

[aaronleland]

I think any business should be able to refuse service if they don't agree with the person's beliefs. There was a time when laws to the contrary were necessary, but not anymore. That business will just have decreased business nowadays.

That said, I think that those who claim to be Christians, and support such things are wrong. Jesus was a sinner's best friend. Refusing to feed a person because they are a sinner goes against everything he preached. Doing it for the sake of profit makes it even worse.

 

[Spiderman]

I think any business should be able to refuse service if they don't agree with the person's beliefs. There was a time when laws to the contrary were necessary, but not anymore. That business will just have decreased business nowadays.

That said, I think that those who claim to be Christians, and support such things are wrong. Jesus was a sinner's best friend. Refusing to feed a person because they are a sinner goes against everything he preached. Doing it for the sake of profit makes it even worse.

To me using religion as an excuse to deny service is a cop out.

If you want to deny service I don't have a problem but at least be honest and say "I'm denying you service because this in my property and you are not welcome"

That is reason enough when people hide behind religion and they do not follow that religion 100% to the letter they just look like cowardly hypocrites who won't take ownership of their choices because God made them do it..

 

[The T]

Amazing how rightwingers care so much about the homosexuals, but not so much about the greedy.

You mean like greedy politicians whose sole aim is to control YOU and how you live your life?

Exactly. Funded by the greedy corporations rightwingers hold in such high regard.

Actually? That is a fallacy. Try again. Many of us don't.

 

[Nosmo King]

If liberals get their way, every right in the bill of rights is doomed.

Spot on, and their ultimate GOAL. Don't let 'em fool you. Their actions speak loudly if not brazenly. Their arrogance knows no bounds until WE stand up to their tyranny.

To be fair, businesses run by bigots could still refuse service to the oppressed, the way they did under Jim Crow and before that the Italians, the Irish and any other group they hated. All the business has to do is identify itself as a bigoted business so none of the oppressed try to trade there.

Bigoted businesses should display a large sign in their window. It should read: "Due to our fervent belief in Jesus Christ who commanded us to love one another and to do unto others as we would have others do unto us, we reserve the right to hate, fear and discriminate homosexuals."

That way the oppressed class can avoid the oppressive class.

Ah! The American way!

 

[JoeB131]

I think any business should be able to refuse service if they don't agree with the person's beliefs. There was a time when laws to the contrary were necessary, but not anymore. That business will just have decreased business nowadays.

That said, I think that those who claim to be Christians, and support such things are wrong. Jesus was a sinner's best friend. Refusing to feed a person because they are a sinner goes against everything he preached. Doing it for the sake of profit makes it even worse.

To me using religion as an excuse to deny service is a cop out.

If you want to deny service I don't have a problem but at least be honest and say "I'm denying you service because this in my property and you are not welcome"

That is reason enough when people hide behind religion and they do not follow that religion 100% to the letter they just look like cowardly hypocrites who won't take ownership of their choices because God made them do it..

Except that we've alrady established BY LAW that businesses are public accommedations and you can't deny service without good reason.

 

[laziale]

If liberals get their way, every right in the bill of rights is doomed.

i agree with you