Why should the poor not have to pay federal income tax

[Intense]

Republican tax policy is by far the main reason so many of the 'poor' pay no income taxes.

And now, sadly, they AND the Democrats have begun to eat away at the payroll tax. We are in a tax cut death spiral that the politicians do not have the courage to get us out of.

So you support Everyone paying Income Tax. That's good to hear.

You're willing to raise your own taxes in order to get the 'poor' to pay more taxes?

yes or no

Because that is the only way it's going to happen. You have to get rid of child based credits/deductions/exemptions to put the lower income households back paying tax,

and politicians are not going to get rid of them ONLY for the poor.

Short Answer, Yes. Though I am Working Poor. Somebody Always pays, there is no way around that. It is Virtuous to not take more than you receive, no way around that either. You want voice in what others pay, put yourself in their shoes. Apply the same standard to yourself.

 

[Intense]

Guy at the hardware makes $20,000, let him pay his 2 grand. A "guy" named General Electric makes 5 billion,let"him" pay his $500,000,000.
Understand ?

20, 000 X 15% = 3,000

5,000,000,000 X 15% = 750,000,000

Perfect.

15% Flat Tax wins. Thanks for playing.

They will never pass a flat tax without an exemption for the first x number of dollars of earnings.

One of the big selling points of Steve Forbe's flat tax back in the eighties was an exemption that would have resulted in a family of four making up to 36,000 in taxable income

paying NO federal income taxes.

The same 'problem' you people are crying about now.

I don't cry easy. I also pay what's due, when it's due. Which is something that is expected of all of us. Sorry, too many whining while on a free ride. You are drowning the Golden Goose with Undue Burden. When we agree that everyone needs to contribute their fair share, the same percentage, for All Income, and come up with a reasonable approach, and agree on that percentage, we are then All playing by the same rules, and much better off.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Ah, you see. You see health care as goods and services. Your system is destined to fail.

That's because it -is- goods and services.
I'd like to see you argue otherwise.

It's a service, not a business...

People engage in commerce thru it. People pay other people to provide a service, and pay to receive certain good along with said services. Like other goods and services, there is a demand and there is a supply, with the prices of said services being at least nominally tied to same.

Thus, its a business.

Now, you don't have to like that fact, but it remains a fact, and it is impossivle for you to soundly argue otherwise.

 

[gallantwarrior]

That's because it -is- goods and services.
I'd like to see you argue otherwise.

It's a service, not a business...

People engage in commerce thru it. People pay other people to provide a service, and pay to receive certain good along with said services. Like other goods and services, there is a demand and there is a supply, with the prices of said services being at least nominally tied to same.

Thus, its a business.

Now, you don't have to like that fact, but it remains a fact, and it is impossivle for you to soundly argue otherwise.

Actually, government meddling, both regulatory and participatory (i.e. manipulating insurance costs/payments), has made health care outrageously expensive. As with most markets, if left to alone, prices would fall of their own volition. People won't buy what they cannot pay for. If not purchased, goods and services either decrease in price or go away, replaced by something more attractive to the buyer.

 

[RDD_1210]

So you support Everyone paying Income Tax. That's good to hear.

You're willing to raise your own taxes in order to get the 'poor' to pay more taxes?

yes or no

Because that is the only way it's going to happen. You have to get rid of child based credits/deductions/exemptions to put the lower income households back paying tax,

and politicians are not going to get rid of them ONLY for the poor.

Short Answer, Yes. Though I am Working Poor. Somebody Always pays, there is no way around that. It is Virtuous to not take more than you receive, no way around that either. You want voice in what others pay, put yourself in their shoes. Apply the same standard to yourself.

Are you lazy? Do you lack drive?

I was told by numerous conservatives on this site that the working poor are only poor because they are lazy and want to do as little as possible. Does that describe you?

Apparently the only thing you need to do to become rich is to stop being so lazy and work hard. What's stopping you?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

I said "unforeseen catastrophic illness or injury" I don't consider an illness or injury that cost me $8,000/month to be catastrophic. Or don't you get it that some people have money in the bank, investments, real property and stacks of gold and silver.
You claim I'm lying because YOU could not survive an 8 grand/month expense. Don't lump me in with yourself. Don't assume that I'm anything like you.

LOL! Doctors don't take gold and silver.

If you've got several million ready to liquidate in case of medical emergency, I'll buy that you are self-insured. I think its fool you'd risk that much money, however, as health insurance should be easily affordable to someone with your financial ability. If I were in your position I would carry a high deductible plan for catastrophic illness or injury to limit my risk exposure. Routine health issues are clearly something you can afford to pay as you need - but why risk millions?

Do you not carry other forms of insurance to protect your assets? Why wouldn't you carry health insurance to do the same? Why needlessly expose your assets to the whims of fate and chance when you can just pay for the risk at a set rate that is tiny compared to what is at risk? The more you can take fate and chance out of your financial equation, the more your financial worth will be under your control rather than the control of chance.

EDIT:
Now, chances are, you'll never suffer a catastrophic health problem and lose millions in the process. You'll probably go through life and that won't happen and in all likelihood you'll be able to say "See Ooopy - I was right. I saved a bunch of money". But there is small chance an expensive health care problem will befall you, and it will cost you millions of dollars. And in that case, I could say "Told you so". but right now - we don't know which of those two probabilities will happen - do we? The future cost of that risk - right now - is unknown - but we can compute an average of that risk (if we were so inclined to do the research) by multiplying the chances of you getting a catastrophic health problem times its cost. That value is essentially what health insurance charges you. Instead of exposing yourself to the risk of paying the higher cost - you simply pay the average cost based on the average of future outcomes - plus a small premium, as the insurance company must profit to exist. Now you have essentially taken control of the future cost - by paying the (approximately) known average cost - instead of allowing the future cost to be determined by factors you do not control. To not pay for the insurance is no different than non-skill based gambling games.

I see no fault in your logic. Yes, I'm betting that I can last 2.5 years without a catastrophic problem. You very well might get to say "I told you so", but it is more likely that I will be singing that song.
And yes. I'm willing to bet that I could pay a doctor in gold. It's very reasonable to assume that he would be happier to take a coin worth $1,730 in exchange for $1,700 in services than your Medicaid card.

Baloney. The time the Doctor would spend cashing in your physical gold is worth a lot more to that doctor than $30.

 

[M14 Shooter]

It's a service, not a business...

People engage in commerce thru it. People pay other people to provide a service, and pay to receive certain good along with said services. Like other goods and services, there is a demand and there is a supply, with the prices of said services being at least nominally tied to same.

Thus, its a business.

Now, you don't have to like that fact, but it remains a fact, and it is impossivle for you to soundly argue otherwise.

Actually, government meddling, both regulatory and participatory (i.e. manipulating insurance costs/payments), has made health care outrageously expensive. As with most markets, if left to alone, prices would fall of their own volition. People won't buy what they cannot pay for. If not purchased, goods and services either decrease in price or go away, replaced by something more attractive to the buyer.

I have often argued that the best way to reduce health care costs is to remove all third-party payers and expose the consumer to the full cost of the goods and services he receives.

This will reduce demand and force competition betwen vedors - which will then decrease costs and improve quality.

 

[Flopper]

LOL! Doctors don't take gold and silver.

If you've got several million ready to liquidate in case of medical emergency, I'll buy that you are self-insured. I think its fool you'd risk that much money, however, as health insurance should be easily affordable to someone with your financial ability. If I were in your position I would carry a high deductible plan for catastrophic illness or injury to limit my risk exposure. Routine health issues are clearly something you can afford to pay as you need - but why risk millions?

Do you not carry other forms of insurance to protect your assets? Why wouldn't you carry health insurance to do the same? Why needlessly expose your assets to the whims of fate and chance when you can just pay for the risk at a set rate that is tiny compared to what is at risk? The more you can take fate and chance out of your financial equation, the more your financial worth will be under your control rather than the control of chance.

EDIT:
Now, chances are, you'll never suffer a catastrophic health problem and lose millions in the process. You'll probably go through life and that won't happen and in all likelihood you'll be able to say "See Ooopy - I was right. I saved a bunch of money". But there is small chance an expensive health care problem will befall you, and it will cost you millions of dollars. And in that case, I could say "Told you so". but right now - we don't know which of those two probabilities will happen - do we? The future cost of that risk - right now - is unknown - but we can compute an average of that risk (if we were so inclined to do the research) by multiplying the chances of you getting a catastrophic health problem times its cost. That value is essentially what health insurance charges you. Instead of exposing yourself to the risk of paying the higher cost - you simply pay the average cost based on the average of future outcomes - plus a small premium, as the insurance company must profit to exist. Now you have essentially taken control of the future cost - by paying the (approximately) known average cost - instead of allowing the future cost to be determined by factors you do not control. To not pay for the insurance is no different than non-skill based gambling games.

I see no fault in your logic. Yes, I'm betting that I can last 2.5 years without a catastrophic problem. You very well might get to say "I told you so", but it is more likely that I will be singing that song.
And yes. I'm willing to bet that I could pay a doctor in gold. It's very reasonable to assume that he would be happier to take a coin worth $1,730 in exchange for $1,700 in services than your Medicaid card.

Baloney. The time the Doctor would spend cashing in your physical gold is worth a lot more to that doctor than $30.

Hell, my doctor doesn't even accept direct payment. All services are invoiced.

It's not legal to use gold as currency unless it's US gold coins that have been monetized.

 

[Valox]

Hell, my doctor doesn't even accept direct payment. All services are invoiced.

It's not legal to use gold as currency unless it's US gold coins that have been monetized.

I think it is legal to use almost anything as currency. The issue is whether the debtor will accept it or not. With US dollars, the debtor is forced to accept all debts, public and private. They could accept gold as payment, but they could legally refuse it.

In fact, your doctor may be violating the law by not directly accepting the government decreed fiat money. You could pay your doctor in money and if he refuses, then that is on him.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

I see no fault in your logic. Yes, I'm betting that I can last 2.5 years without a catastrophic problem. You very well might get to say "I told you so", but it is more likely that I will be singing that song.
And yes. I'm willing to bet that I could pay a doctor in gold. It's very reasonable to assume that he would be happier to take a coin worth $1,730 in exchange for $1,700 in services than your Medicaid card.

Baloney. The time the Doctor would spend cashing in your physical gold is worth a lot more to that doctor than $30.

Hell, my doctor doesn't even accept direct payment. All services are invoiced.

It's not legal to use gold as currency unless it's US gold coins that have been monetized.

That doesn't mean you can't pay for goods and services with gold, it just means you can't demand gold for your goods and services, and it means that if gold is accepted as payment, it counts as a transaction taxable by the IRS - if I pay you with gold, as far as the IRS is concerned, I've sold my gold to you for the purchase price of the good or service and then given you the cash right back for the good or service, resulting in a capital gain (loss) if the gold price accepted on the transaction is different than what I paid for it. Additionally, you have in essence purchased gold, so when you go to sell the gold for cash, you'll be subject to a tax.

 

[Flopper]

Baloney. The time the Doctor would spend cashing in your physical gold is worth a lot more to that doctor than $30.

Hell, my doctor doesn't even accept direct payment. All services are invoiced.

It's not legal to use gold as currency unless it's US gold coins that have been monetized.

That doesn't mean you can't pay for goods and services with gold, it just means you can't demand gold for your goods and services, and it means that if gold is accepted as payment, it counts as a transaction taxable by the IRS - if I pay you with gold, as far as the IRS is concerned, I've sold my gold to you for the purchase price of the good or service and then given you the cash right back for the good or service, resulting in a capital gain (loss) if the gold price accepted on the transaction is different than what I paid for it. Additionally, you have in essence purchased gold, so when you go to sell the gold for cash, you'll be subject to a tax.

What you're taking about is barter. I think most doctors have stopped accepting apple pies, pigs, and sacks of gold as payment for services.

 

[DiamondDave]

Keep ~47-50% of the populace not paying federal income taxes, and keep having tax policies in place at state and local levels that keep pandering to handouts while the lower incomes pay nothing.. and this is what you get

At 102%, His Tax Rate Takes the Cake - Yahoo! Finance

This progressive and punitive taxation bullshit has to stop... The time is at hand for the flat tax with zero exemptions on every dollar earned by every adult citizen

 

[Dragon]

Tell you what. We can increase the income taxes on lower-income people, if at the same time we change Social Security payroll tax to a graduated system and reduce their payments to that fund without reducing ultimate benefits.

Otherwise, we're just increasing taxes on the people least able to pay them. When Prince John tried that, it resulted in problems, no?

 

[bripat9643]

Tell you what. We can increase the income taxes on lower-income people, if at the same time we change Social Security payroll tax to a graduated system and reduce their payments to that fund without reducing ultimate benefits.

Otherwise, we're just increasing taxes on the people least able to pay them. When Prince John tried that, it resulted in problems, no?

So you want to convert Social Security into a welfare program?

 

[Dragon]

Tell you what. We can increase the income taxes on lower-income people, if at the same time we change Social Security payroll tax to a graduated system and reduce their payments to that fund without reducing ultimate benefits.

Otherwise, we're just increasing taxes on the people least able to pay them. When Prince John tried that, it resulted in problems, no?

So you want to convert Social Security into a welfare program?

Not especially. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous the premise of this thread is.

 

[NYcarbineer]

So you people want a poor family that is eligible for food stamps for example to pay more federal income tax?

So, effectively, you want them to PAY for their food stamps...

...is there even ONE rightwinger out there who can see the insanity of that?

 

[007]

Could you right wing assholes be any more fucking petty?

So now you liberals new term for "fair share" is "fucking petty?"

 

[Dragon]

Could you right wing assholes be any more fucking petty?

So now you liberals new term for "fair share" is "fucking petty?"

For what YOU mean by "fair share," definitely. And it is.

 

[Full-Auto]

So you people want a poor family that is eligible for food stamps for example to pay more federal income tax?

So, effectively, you want them to PAY for their food stamps...

...is there even ONE rightwinger out there who can see the insanity of that?

what is poor?

For example if my income drops to 52k I can get food stamps.

Maybe that type of factual information will open your eyes!!!!!!!


foodhelp.wa.gov - Basic Food

 

[NYcarbineer]

So you people want a poor family that is eligible for food stamps for example to pay more federal income tax?

So, effectively, you want them to PAY for their food stamps...

...is there even ONE rightwinger out there who can see the insanity of that?

what is poor?

For example if my income drops to 52k I can get food stamps.

Maybe that type of factual information will open your eyes!!!!!!!


foodhelp.wa.gov - Basic Food

That's with how many dependents?

Hey, if conservatives/Republicans want to end food stamps, and pass the savings along in the form of a tax cut for the Rich,

then they should run on that. Just be honest.