Why so much hate for the Confederacy.? It can't be about slavery.

[Boss]

I for one hate the Confederacy because they LOST a war of their own choosing but still expect we should accept their moronic rag as legitimate.

I'm a yankee from Brooklyn. Why don't I hate the Confederacy?

Because it doesn't exist! Most southerners have their own ideas about things, none of which affect me in the slightest degree. The only southerners I don't like are those who don't like me and show it.

If flying the defunct Confederate flag makes some southerners feel good -- so what? Forbidding them to do that is not going to change their feelings about anything but is likely to intensify any negative feelings they have about northerners and northern policies.

History is history. There is no reason to believe every southerner who flies the rebel flag is pro-slavery. Only an extremely small number of pre-Bellum southerners (the rich) owned slaves, or cared to. The vast majority of southern men who opted to go to war with the North did so in response to a widely perceived aggression by the federal government -- the "damn yankees."

I was stationed in North Carolina for two years in the '50s and I met a lot of very nice people there. Especially a little blond who would say, "Ah jes don't know about y'all yankee boys!" She was a cutie who stole my heart and I never forgot her.

Thanks for your fair-minded and tolerant viewpoint, it is appreciated. I would like to extend this a step further and say that it doesn't really matter to me WHY someone waves ANY flag... they should have that right in America. When we start banning symbols it's no different than banning speech or literature. We can't go down this road, no matter how much we may personally disagree with the 'symbolism' being displayed.

The Southern Cross means a lot of things to a lot of people but I doubt it means a call for returning blacks to slavery to very many. But it shouldn't matter. The flag also symbolizes other things to other people, we are all individuals. It's this collectivist pop-culture PC mindset that Liberals are so romantic about... it's creepy to me. Are our thoughts going to be monitored and banned next? Where does this end?

 

[ChrisL]

I for one hate the Confederacy because they LOST a war of their own choosing but still expect we should accept their moronic rag as legitimate.

I'm a yankee from Brooklyn. Why don't I hate the Confederacy?

Because it doesn't exist! Most southerners have their own ideas about things, none of which affect me in the slightest degree. The only southerners I don't like are those who don't like me and show it.

If flying the defunct Confederate flag makes some southerners feel good -- so what? Forbidding them to do that is not going to change their feelings about anything but is likely to intensify any negative feelings they have about northerners and northern policies.

History is history. There is no reason to believe every southerner who flies the rebel flag is pro-slavery. Only an extremely small number of pre-Bellum southerners (the rich) owned slaves, or cared to. The vast majority of southern men who opted to go to war with the North did so in response to a widely perceived aggression by the federal government -- the "damn yankees."

I was stationed in North Carolina for two years in the '50s and I met a lot of very nice people there. Especially a little blond who would say, "Ah jes don't know about y'all yankee boys!" She was a cutie who stole my heart and I never forgot her.

Thanks for your fair-minded and tolerant viewpoint, it is appreciated. I would like to extend this a step further and say that it doesn't really matter to me WHY someone waves ANY flag... they should have that right in America. When we start banning symbols it's no different than banning speech or literature. We can't go down this road, no matter how much we may personally disagree with the 'symbolism' being displayed.

The Southern Cross means a lot of things to a lot of people but I doubt it means a call for returning blacks to slavery to very many. But it shouldn't matter. The flag also symbolizes other things to other people, we are all individuals. It's this collectivist pop-culture PC mindset that Liberals are so romantic about... it's creepy to me. Are our thoughts going to be monitored and banned next? Where does this end?

Good point. I can understand why a black person might find it offensive though, but then again we don't have a "right" to not be offended. If we started doing that, we wouldn't have anything left!

 

[Boss]

I can understand why a black person might find it offensive though...

Well yes, BUT... as a person who is actually 'worse' than a black, a multi-racial person, I can ask... why not instead find it to be a learning opportunity? To view it positively as a symbol of how far we have come? Case in point, the expressed views of Dr. Walter E. Williams...

The black economics professor of George Mason University claims that blacks "should be thankful for slavery!" Of course, this immediately raises some eyebrows as he makes his argument: Because of the horrible awful institution of slavery, most black people in America are here in a land of unlimited potential and opportunity. If not for slavery, they would be tending the skinny livestock or hunting small animals to feed their tribe.

Dr. Williams has a point, it's a matter of perspective. People CHOOSE to be offended.

 

[ChrisL]

I can understand why a black person might find it offensive though...

Well yes, BUT... as a person who is actually 'worse' than a black, a multi-racial person, I can ask... why not instead find it to be a learning opportunity? To view it positively as a symbol of how far we have come? Case in point, the expressed views of Dr. Walter E. Williams...

The black economics professor of George Mason University claims that blacks "should be thankful for slavery!" Of course, this immediately raises some eyebrows as he makes his argument: Because of the horrible awful institution of slavery, most black people in America are here in a land of unlimited potential and opportunity. If not for slavery, they would be tending the skinny livestock or hunting small animals to feed their tribe.

Dr. Williams has a point, it's a matter of perspective. People CHOOSE to be offended.

Yeesh. I don't know if they should be thankful for slavery though. For being American citizens NOW, okay.

 

[Boss]

Yeesh. I don't know if they should be thankful for slavery though. For being American citizens NOW, okay.

Again... the point is perspective. They wouldn't BE American citizens now, would they?

 

[ChrisL]

Yeesh. I don't know if they should be thankful for slavery though. For being American citizens NOW, okay.

Again... the point is perspective. They wouldn't BE American citizens now, would they?

No, but that still doesn't make their enslavement a "good" thing. It just so happens that their ancestors benefited in some ways. Obviously, slavery is still a quite painful issue for some (a lot) of black people.

 

[Boss]

Yeesh. I don't know if they should be thankful for slavery though. For being American citizens NOW, okay.

Again... the point is perspective. They wouldn't BE American citizens now, would they?

No, but that still doesn't make their enslavement a "good" thing. It just so happens that their ancestors benefited in some ways. Obviously, slavery is still a quite painful issue for some (a lot) of black people.

But that's the point, it's a matter of how you choose to look at things. Why is slavery "painful" when it's responsible for you being in this great country with unlimited potential and opportunity... as opposed to being born into abject poverty of some African village?

 

[ChrisL]

Yeesh. I don't know if they should be thankful for slavery though. For being American citizens NOW, okay.

Again... the point is perspective. They wouldn't BE American citizens now, would they?

No, but that still doesn't make their enslavement a "good" thing. It just so happens that their ancestors benefited in some ways. Obviously, slavery is still a quite painful issue for some (a lot) of black people.

But that's the point, it's a matter of how you choose to look at things. Why is slavery "painful" when it's responsible for you being in this great country with unlimited potential and opportunity... as opposed to being born into abject poverty of some African village?

I don't know because I'm not black. I don't think many of them are "thankful" for slavery either though. Lol.

 

[Boss]

Yeesh. I don't know if they should be thankful for slavery though. For being American citizens NOW, okay.

Again... the point is perspective. They wouldn't BE American citizens now, would they?

No, but that still doesn't make their enslavement a "good" thing. It just so happens that their ancestors benefited in some ways. Obviously, slavery is still a quite painful issue for some (a lot) of black people.

But that's the point, it's a matter of how you choose to look at things. Why is slavery "painful" when it's responsible for you being in this great country with unlimited potential and opportunity... as opposed to being born into abject poverty of some African village?

I don't know because I'm not black. I don't think many of them are "thankful" for slavery either though. Lol.

Well I don't either, and I don't think a white man could have ever gotten away with saying that... but Dr. Williams raises a valid point about how we choose to look at our circumstances. We can always find reasons to be "victims" and choose to focus on whatever bad thing happened to us... or we can choose to look at the brighter side and find positives. Those who are "pained" by slavery or "offended" by our history, should keep this in mind.

 

[ChrisL]

Yeesh. I don't know if they should be thankful for slavery though. For being American citizens NOW, okay.

Again... the point is perspective. They wouldn't BE American citizens now, would they?

No, but that still doesn't make their enslavement a "good" thing. It just so happens that their ancestors benefited in some ways. Obviously, slavery is still a quite painful issue for some (a lot) of black people.

But that's the point, it's a matter of how you choose to look at things. Why is slavery "painful" when it's responsible for you being in this great country with unlimited potential and opportunity... as opposed to being born into abject poverty of some African village?

I don't know because I'm not black. I don't think many of them are "thankful" for slavery either though. Lol.

Well I don't either, and I don't think a white man could have ever gotten away with saying that... but Dr. Williams raises a valid point about how we choose to look at our circumstances. We can always find reasons to be "victims" and choose to focus on whatever bad thing happened to us... or we can choose to look at the brighter side and find positives. Those who are "pained" by slavery or "offended" by our history, should keep this in mind.

I should have said their descendants, not their ancestors. I apologize, it's been a loooong night.

 

[ChrisL]

Yeesh. I don't know if they should be thankful for slavery though. For being American citizens NOW, okay.

Again... the point is perspective. They wouldn't BE American citizens now, would they?

No, but that still doesn't make their enslavement a "good" thing. It just so happens that their ancestors benefited in some ways. Obviously, slavery is still a quite painful issue for some (a lot) of black people.

But that's the point, it's a matter of how you choose to look at things. Why is slavery "painful" when it's responsible for you being in this great country with unlimited potential and opportunity... as opposed to being born into abject poverty of some African village?

I don't know because I'm not black. I don't think many of them are "thankful" for slavery either though. Lol.

Well I don't either, and I don't think a white man could have ever gotten away with saying that... but Dr. Williams raises a valid point about how we choose to look at our circumstances. We can always find reasons to be "victims" and choose to focus on whatever bad thing happened to us... or we can choose to look at the brighter side and find positives. Those who are "pained" by slavery or "offended" by our history, should keep this in mind.

Anyway, I do agree with most of your post, but I can't control how other people think and feel about things. In the situation of this flag, since it was not outright banned, I don't see it as being such a huge issue. If it was banned and people were not allowed to fly it anywhere, that would be another story, but people can still fly the flag. I don't think others should look down upon them for doing so either, assuming they are racists because they, as you stated, may have their own reasons for wanting to fly the flag.

 

[there4eyeM]

The Confederacy represents, nonetheless, the darker side of American potential. That era will always be an embarrassment.

 

[Boss]

Anyway, I do agree with most of your post, but I can't control how other people think and feel about things. In the situation of this flag, since it was not outright banned, I don't see it as being such a huge issue. If it was banned and people were not allowed to fly it anywhere, that would be another story, but people can still fly the flag. I don't think others should look down upon them for doing so either, assuming they are racists because they, as you stated, may have their own reasons for wanting to fly the flag.

You can surely see where there are people advocating for the removal of this flag from our entire culture, they are pressuring merchandisers to not sell the flag, pressuring NASCAR to ban it from their events... In Alabama, they are removing Civil War era monuments and digging up the graves of Confederate veterans. It has gone WAY beyond removing the flag from the SC statehouse.

For the record, I agreed with those who protested the flag flying over the statehouse in SC. I don't think it was flying there to symbolize heritage. It was put there as a protest to desegregation. In that context it was improper and needed to come down.

However, jump over to the west a few states and in Mississippi they've had a great debate over the state flag, which contains the Southern Cross in it's design. The people of Mississippi voted down a measure to change the flag... and I also agree with their decision and right to make it.

 

[Boss]

The Confederacy represents, nonetheless, the darker side of American potential. That era will always be an embarrassment.

It only represents what you believe it to represent. The "darker side of American potential" was condoning and upholding slavery as an institution for the entirety of the nation's existence. The even "darker side" might be the Trail of Tears, where they killed most of my ancestors marching them into the desert against their will off of lands they had every right to. What about the "dark side" which treated Irish and Italian immigrants like second-class citizens for decades? Interned Japanese-Americans or built the railroad on the backs of Chinese peasants? ......Not much "shame" in any of THOSE dark sides, is there?

I see the Confederacy as a defiant and rebellious result of people not tolerating Federal government violating their Constitutional rights.

 

[Skylar]

There were four UNION STATES, KY MD MO DE, that had legal slavery during the civil war. Those 4 states had a combined total of 400,000 slaves.!! Yes, the south had 3.6 million slaves but the point remains that both sides had slave states .

For the 8 millionth time, the CW was not about slavery. The idea is absurd. The media is telling another of it's whopper lies.

The South Carolina declaration of Secession mentions Slaves or slavery 11 times. The idea that secession had nothing to do with slavery is a steaming pile of ignorant revisionist horseshit.

And the Confederacy waged war against the United States as part of a criminal rebellion. That's reason enough not to be fond of them.

 

[Boss]

The South Carolina declaration of Secession mentions Slaves or slavery 11 times.

Of course it did! Slaves were personal property according to the Constitution as determined by SCOTUS. Why wouldn't they mention their property rights? The legal and upheld institution of slavery was what drove their economy... why wouldn't they support continuing the legal institution? You're not making ANY sense.

 

[Skylar]

The South Carolina declaration of Secession mentions Slaves or slavery 11 times.

Of course it did! Slaves were personal property according to the Constitution as determined by SCOTUS.

And the US wasn't even proposing taking that property away. Rendering your entire argument, and theirs, moot.

Why wouldn't they mention their property rights? The legal and upheld institution of slavery was what drove their economy... why wouldn't they support continuing the legal institution? You're not making ANY sense.

Strawman. I haven't made any of those arguments. You're not making any sense.

 

[Boss]

And the US wasn't even proposing taking that property away.

Then it WASN'T about slavery, was it?

 

[Skylar]

And the US wasn't even proposing taking that property away.

Then it WASN'T about slavery, was it?

It was to the South. They completely overreacted, responding to conspiracy theories about slavery and their own emotion rather than the evidence. As the North wasn't even proposing outlawing Slavery in the south. Lincoln certainly wasn't.

Yet the South irrationally believed otherwise and seceded to protect an institution that no one was proposing be outlawed in the South. And as evidence of how irrational they were......South Carolina seceded before Lincoln took office. Making it impossible for them to be responding to his policy even hypothetically. As he hadn't enacted any.

It also kicks the living shit out of your 'violating their constitutional rights' argument for the same reasons.

And with the South Carolina Secession declaration that outlined their reasons for seceding citing slaves or slavery 11 times.......there's no rational argument that could be made that slavery wasn't a cause for secession and the civil war.

Its pure revisionist idiocy.

 

[Liminal]

And the US wasn't even proposing taking that property away.

Then it WASN'T about slavery, was it?

Slavery was the primary issue that caused the Civil War.....end of story.