Why so much hate for the Confederacy.? It can't be about slavery.

[Skylar]

Oh, and B.....I'm still waiting for you to back up that bullshit you made up about Lincoln campaigning as an abolitionist.

So far, you've presented exactly jack shit to back that narrative. And have apparently tried to abandon the topic.

That doesn't bode well for your claims.

 

[Syriusly]

There were four UNION STATES, KY MD MO DE, that had legal slavery during the civil war. Those 4 states had a combined total of 400,000 slaves.!! Yes, the south had 3.6 million slaves but the point remains that both sides had slave states .

For the 8 millionth time, the CW was not about slavery. The idea is absurd. The media is telling another of it's whopper lies.

Southerners have a unique culture, accents, and don't agree with Northerners on a great many topics. As such, you'll consistently see Northerners talking down on Southerners out of had. This brings out a great deal of mutual dislike.

LOL....Southerners have different cultures than the North- but even Southerners can't agree on their 'unique culture'. The Southerner from coastal Charleston and Savannah is not the same as the Southerner in central Alabama is not the same as the 'Southerner' in east Texas.

 

[Skylar]

Wow, this is amazing... So what I am hearing is: Lincoln had absolutely no intention of freeing any slaves or abolishing slavery... yet this is why you claim the Civil War was fought?

Show us. Don't tell us.

You claim Lincoln campaigned as an abolitionist. I say you're completely full of shit and offering us revisionist fantasies based on your own imagination and hapless ignorance.

Show us some of Lincoln's campaign speeches as an Abolitionist. Its remarkably simple. I mean, if its as well known as you claim, it should be trivial in difficulty.

And yet.......you've still got nothing. Why is that do you think?

I don't need to show you anything, you need to educate yourself on history a little bit. Lincoln was an abolitionist who felt the best way to abolish slavery was through a gradual course to full emancipation. No, he was not a part of the activist Abolitionist movement. Yes he did support ending slavery, aka: abolition.

And exactly as I predicted......all you found was excuses why you can't back up your bullshit. You found nothing to support your claim that Lincoln campaigned as an abolitionist. Probably because you were completely full of shit and Lincoln did no such thing.

And with it your entire 'the south was just protecting their constitutional rights' narrative collapses. As Lincoln didn't even *propose* that slavery be abolished in the South in his campaign or at any point until the Civil War was well and truly waged. Read the Lincoln Douglas debates. There's not even mention of abolishing slavery in the South. Instead it was a debate of extending slavery to the new states and territories.

The Lincoln-Douglas Debates of 1858 - Lincoln Home National Historic Site U.S. National Park Service

At no point did Lincoln call for abolition in the south. Not in the Senate Debates. And not as part of his presidential campaign. You're just plain wrong.

For fuck's sake, Lincoln backed an amendment that would have forever protected slavery where it existed and proclaimed before taking office that he would not free any slaves.

 

[Boss]

Sure he did. As the United States includes all of the States, sharing concurrent jurisdiction with every State.

Again... he cannot Constitutionally seize property due to the 4th Amendment. If he is acting as president freeing slaves owned by American citizens, it's a direct Constitutional violation. That is why the EP didn't free slaves in West Virginia or Union-controlled territories of the South.

The action he took was under his powers as military C in C. Under THAT authority, he could seize the property of an enemy of state (Confederacy) and it was legal... but, since he had no control of the states in question at the time, meant absolutely nothing.

Again... Slaves were freed with passage and ratification of the 13th/14th/15th Amendments.

 

[Skylar]

Sure he did. As the United States includes all of the States, sharing concurrent jurisdiction with every State.

Again... he cannot Constitutionally seize property due to the 4th Amendment.

Your argument was jurisdiction. You've moved your goal posts. He clearly had jurisdiction. As the US federal government had concurrent jurisdiction with every State in the 'CSA'.

The constitutionality of the Proclamation itself is incidental with the passage of the 13th amendment.

 

[Syriusly]

You are the one who seems to be illiterate of history here. Lincoln was an abolitionist and his plan for abolition was to gradually get rid of slavery over time. (Gradual Abolition) His solution for dealing with the uncomfortable consequences of free slaves running loose in white society was to ship them off to Central America or back to Africa.

Lincoln always said he was NOT an abolitionist. He opposed slavery but said he had neither the authority nor inclination to do anything about it. Eventually he issued the EP but that didn't free any slaves.

You actually had a post that had something correct- all the way up to the Emancipation Proclamation- when you spewed the revisionists BS line.

All of the slaves in the territories marked in red were immediately freed by the Emancipation Proclamation- an estimated 20,000 slaves.

All of the areas is pink (or taupe) were the areas that eventually had all of the slaves freed by the Emancipation Proclamation. The Emancipation Proclamation freed the majority of slaves in America.

You will note, all the "freed slaves" are in the CSA. Lincoln had no authority in the CSA.

What Lincoln did was actually a very questionable Constitutional act. As CinC of the military, he is authorized to seize enemy property in the name of "spoils of war" or as military strategy. This is why it could not pertain to the 400k slaves in the blue areas of your map.

If you contend the CSA was never a country in it's own right, and the Confederacy was simply a rebellion of US citizens, then the Emancipation Proclamation is unconstitutional.

Slaves in the United States were not free until ratification of the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments.

Wow- you should have been telling that to the slaves were celebrating being freed by Emancipation Proclamation. They no longer could be bought and sold- but you say that they were not actually free?

Lincoln's authority to do exactly what he did was never successfully legally challenged. You say he didn't have the right? Who cares? He did it- slaves were freed, and the Emancipation Act ultimately led to the 13th Amendment, and the freeing the of the remaining slaves.

 

[Boss]

Your argument was jurisdiction. You've moved your goal posts. He clearly had jurisdiction. As the US federal government had concurrent jurisdiction with every State in the 'CSA'.

The CSA declared independence, they were a sovereign nation and no longer part of the US.

Again... if you insist they were indeed part of the US under jurisdiction of the US Constitution, then President Lincoln has absolutely NO authority to violate the 4th Amendment rights of American citizens. The EP is totally unconstitutional.

 

[Skylar]

Your argument was jurisdiction. You've moved your goal posts. He clearly had jurisdiction. As the US federal government had concurrent jurisdiction with every State in the 'CSA'.

The CSA declared independence, they were a sovereign nation and no longer part of the US.

Their declaration wasn't valid as they lacked the authority to cease or cede any territory without the consent of the concurrent sovereign: the US federal government.

It would be the same as if two people owned a home. And one of them 'declared' that they alone owned it now. It doesn't amount to much.

The States lacked the authority to cede the US's jurisdiction and authority over the territory within each State.

 

[Skylar]

Oh, and I'm still waiting for you to admit you didn't know what the fuck you were talking about regarding Lincoln campaigning as an 'abolitionist'. It never happened. Your failure to back the claim accompanied with your stark avoidance of the topic speaks volumes.

As does the Lincoln Douglas debates. Which never so much as mention your nonsense. For crying out loud, Lincoln backed an amendment that would protect slavery in perpetuity anywhere it already existed. He wasn't an abolitionist nor did he campaign as one.

The South simply overreacted and pointlessly shit their collective pants over irrational fear.

 

[evince]

racists trying to rewrite history

your party is dying

 

[Syriusly]

Sure he did. As the United States includes all of the States, sharing concurrent jurisdiction with every State.

Again... he cannot Constitutionally seize property due to the 4th Amendment. If he is acting as president freeing slaves owned by American citizens, it's a direct Constitutional violation. That is why the EP didn't free slaves in West Virginia or Union-controlled territories of the South.

The action he took was under his powers as military C in C. Under THAT authority, he could seize the property of an enemy of state (Confederacy) and it was legal... but, since he had no control of the states in question at the time, meant absolutely nothing.

Again... Slaves were freed with passage and ratification of the 13th/14th/15th Amendments.

The problem with your post is that the facts say otherwise. Clearly the majority of slaves in America were freed before the enactment of the 13th Amendment

And Lincoln's actual words are quite informative:

"That on the first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State, the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States, shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free; and the Executive Government of the United States, including the military and naval authority thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of such persons, and will do no act or acts to repress such persons, or any of them, in any efforts they may make for their actual freedom.

"That the Executive will, on the first day of January aforesaid, by proclamation, designate the States and parts of States, if any, in which the people thereof, respectively, shall then be in rebellion against the United States; and the fact that any State, or the people thereof, shall on that day be, in good faith, represented in the Congress of the United States by members chosen thereto at elections wherein a majority of the qualified voters of such State shall have participated, shall, in the absence of strong countervailing testimony, be deemed conclusive evidence that such State, and the people thereof, are not then in rebellion against the United States."

Now, therefore I, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, by virtue of the power in me vested as Commander-in-Chief, of the Army and Navy of the United States in time of actual armed rebellion against the authority and government of the United States, and as a fit and necessary war measure for suppressing said rebellion, do, on this first day of January, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and in accordance with my purpose so to do publicly proclaimed for the full period of one hundred days, from the day first above mentioned, order and designate as the States and parts of States wherein the people thereof respectively, are this day in rebellion against the United States, the following, to wit:
Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, (except the Parishes of St. Bernard, Plaquemines, Jefferson, St. John, St. Charles, St. James Ascension, Assumption, Terrebonne, Lafourche, St. Mary, St. Martin, and Orleans, including the City of New Orleans) Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Virginia, (except the forty-eight counties designated as West Virginia, and also the counties of Berkley, Accomac, Northampton, Elizabeth City, York, Princess Ann, and Norfolk, including the cities of Norfolk and Portsmouth[)], and which excepted parts, are for the present, left precisely as if this proclamation were not issued.


And by virtue of the power, and for the purpose aforesaid, I do order and declare that all persons held as slaves within said designated States, and parts of States, are, and henceforward shall be free; and that the Executive government of the United States, including the military and naval authorities thereof, will recognize and maintain the freedom of said persons.

And then it was so.

 

[there4eyeM]

Did Lincoln seize property, or did he free people who were unjustly held as slaves? Who wants to be on the side of those who maintain blacks were not human?

 

[Boss]

You are the one who seems to be illiterate of history here. Lincoln was an abolitionist and his plan for abolition was to gradually get rid of slavery over time. (Gradual Abolition) His solution for dealing with the uncomfortable consequences of free slaves running loose in white society was to ship them off to Central America or back to Africa.

Lincoln always said he was NOT an abolitionist. He opposed slavery but said he had neither the authority nor inclination to do anything about it. Eventually he issued the EP but that didn't free any slaves.

You actually had a post that had something correct- all the way up to the Emancipation Proclamation- when you spewed the revisionists BS line.

All of the slaves in the territories marked in red were immediately freed by the Emancipation Proclamation- an estimated 20,000 slaves.

All of the areas is pink (or taupe) were the areas that eventually had all of the slaves freed by the Emancipation Proclamation. The Emancipation Proclamation freed the majority of slaves in America.

You will note, all the "freed slaves" are in the CSA. Lincoln had no authority in the CSA.

What Lincoln did was actually a very questionable Constitutional act. As CinC of the military, he is authorized to seize enemy property in the name of "spoils of war" or as military strategy. This is why it could not pertain to the 400k slaves in the blue areas of your map.

If you contend the CSA was never a country in it's own right, and the Confederacy was simply a rebellion of US citizens, then the Emancipation Proclamation is unconstitutional.

Slaves in the United States were not free until ratification of the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments.

Wow- you should have been telling that to the slaves were celebrating being freed by Emancipation Proclamation. They no longer could be bought and sold- but you say that they were not actually free?

Lincoln's authority to do exactly what he did was never successfully legally challenged. You say he didn't have the right? Who cares? He did it- slaves were freed, and the Emancipation Act ultimately led to the 13th Amendment, and the freeing the of the remaining slaves.

Well again, no one was freed by the EP. Lincoln made a proclamation to free slaves in a country he didn't control. It would be like Obama issuing an executive order that Mexicans can't grow pot.

Yes he did it... he used the powers of president as commander-in-chief to seize enemy property at time of war. It was illegal and unconstitutional for him to seize property of American citizens protected by the Constitution. It took passage of the 13th to change that because it was the law and SCOTUS had made it crystal clear.

Now.... I fully understand that most of your historical knowledge comes from watching films and movies depicting the cheering slaves when the EP was issued... no doubt, that is how our media glorifies history and they've been doing that for a long time. There's a saying: The winners write the history books. So much of what we've all learned in school is very one-sided and tends to gloss over some very important details and aspects in principle.

 

[Skylar]

Oh, and here are a litany of Lincoln's speeches. Show us anything where Lincoln proposed, advocated or called for abolition in the south before his inauguration.

Selected Speeches of Abraham Lincoln

The Cooper Union speech in particular is considered the best record of his position immediately before the election. And it has nothing you claim in it.

Abraham Lincoln s Cooper Union Address

Here are all the Lincoln-Douglas debates. And they have nothing you claim in them:

The Lincoln-Douglas Debates of 1858 - Lincoln Home National Historic Site U.S. National Park Service

I'm doing the research for you. I'm handing you the links. You have to do nothing save show us the quotes that you claim support your position.

And you know what? You still won't. As your claims are imaginary claptrap. And you know it.

Now so does everyone else.

 

[Boss]

Clearly the majority of slaves in America were freed before the enactment of the 13th Amendment

Well manumission had been happening since the late 1700s across the South. No telling how many slaves were freed by their owners. Slaves did not become constitutionally free citizens until the 13th, 14th and 15th were ratified.

 

[evince]

Did Lincoln seize property, or did he free people who were unjustly held as slaves? Who wants to be on the side of those who maintain blacks were not human?

the republican party

 

[there4eyeM]

Africans were people unjustly subjugated by morally inferior intellects to a status under humans. This was always wrong. Judging them to be chattel was never just. So great a crime merits being redressed as soon as the power exists to do so.

 

[Boss]

Show us anything where Lincoln proposed, advocated or called for abolition in the south before his inauguration.

I've already clarified your error in misconception. You are talking about the Abolitionist Movement and I am talking about a president who favored abolition of slavery. I know you believe these are the same thing but they aren't. Many people were abolitionists but not Abolitionists.... does that compute? (Like some people are liberal and others are Liberal.)

Read all those speeches and you will see that Lincoln was sympathetic to the Abolitionist Movement and favored a gradual abolition plan for slavery. He wanted to stop slavery from expanding and he reckoned to add enough western states as free states to eventually shift the power and end slavery for good. He implemented programs left and right to buy slaves from their owners in Delaware. He purchased lands in Central America and shipped freed slaves as well as free black men there to colonize. He made a proposal to the Southern states that would have gradually ended slavery in 1911.

Skylar, anyone with half a brain can see that Lincoln was an abolitionist.

 

[Syriusly]

You are the one who seems to be illiterate of history here. Lincoln was an abolitionist and his plan for abolition was to gradually get rid of slavery over time. (Gradual Abolition) His solution for dealing with the uncomfortable consequences of free slaves running loose in white society was to ship them off to Central America or back to Africa.

Lincoln always said he was NOT an abolitionist. He opposed slavery but said he had neither the authority nor inclination to do anything about it. Eventually he issued the EP but that didn't free any slaves.

You actually had a post that had something correct- all the way up to the Emancipation Proclamation- when you spewed the revisionists BS line.

All of the slaves in the territories marked in red were immediately freed by the Emancipation Proclamation- an estimated 20,000 slaves.

All of the areas is pink (or taupe) were the areas that eventually had all of the slaves freed by the Emancipation Proclamation. The Emancipation Proclamation freed the majority of slaves in America.

You will note, all the "freed slaves" are in the CSA. Lincoln had no authority in the CSA.

What Lincoln did was actually a very questionable Constitutional act. As CinC of the military, he is authorized to seize enemy property in the name of "spoils of war" or as military strategy. This is why it could not pertain to the 400k slaves in the blue areas of your map.

If you contend the CSA was never a country in it's own right, and the Confederacy was simply a rebellion of US citizens, then the Emancipation Proclamation is unconstitutional.

Slaves in the United States were not free until ratification of the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments.

Wow- you should have been telling that to the slaves were celebrating being freed by Emancipation Proclamation. They no longer could be bought and sold- but you say that they were not actually free?

Lincoln's authority to do exactly what he did was never successfully legally challenged. You say he didn't have the right? Who cares? He did it- slaves were freed, and the Emancipation Act ultimately led to the 13th Amendment, and the freeing the of the remaining slaves.

Well again, no one was freed by the EP. Lincoln made a proclamation to free slaves in a country he didn't control. It would be like Obama issuing an executive order that Mexicans can't grow pot..

Once again- the areas in red were the areas where slaves were immediately freed by the Emancipation Proclamation- despite the revisionist history that some are trying to create- an estimated 20,000 slaves were immediately freed- and were recognized as freed- by the Emancipation Proclamation.

The areas in pink/taupe were freed as Union Troops took control over the rebellious territories. The majority of slaves within the United States were freed by the Emancipation Proclamation before the 13th Amendment went into effect.

 

[Skylar]

I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution—which amendment, however, I have not seen—has passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service....holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable."

Abraham Lincoln First Inaugural Address. U.S. Inaugural Addresses. 1989

And the amendment in question was the Corwin Amendment which read as follows:

No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State

Constitutional Amendments Not Ratified - United States House of Representatives 112th Congress 1st Session

Lincoln was NOT an Abolitionist. His priority was holding the Union together....

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that."

A LETTER FROM PRESIDENT LINCOLN.; Reply to Horace Greeley.

A LETTER FROM PRESIDENT LINCOLN. - Reply to Horace Greeley. Slavery and the Union The Restoration of the Union the Paramount Object. - NYTimes.com

........ not ending slavery.