Why so much hate for the Confederacy.? It can't be about slavery.

[there4eyeM]

The slavery question certainly was inextricable from the problem.

 

[Boss]

And the US wasn't even proposing taking that property away.

Then it WASN'T about slavery, was it?

It was to the South. They completely overreacted, responding to conspiracy theories about slavery and their own emotion rather than the evidence. As the North wasn't even proposing outlawing Slavery in the south. Lincoln certainly wasn't.

Yet the South irrationally believed otherwise and seceded to protect an institution that no one was proposing be outlawed in the South. And as evidence of how irrational they were......South Carolina seceded before Lincoln took office. Making it impossible for them to be responding to his policy even hypothetically. As he hadn't enacted any.

It also kicks the living shit out of your 'violating their constitutional rights' argument for the same reasons.

And with the South Carolina Secession declaration that outlined their reasons for seceding citing slaves or slavery 11 times.......there's no rational argument that could be made that slavery wasn't a cause for secession and the civil war.

Its pure revisionist idiocy.

Sorry, but Lincoln campaigned on Abolition in 1860. There wasn't a "North" to propose anything, we only had one nation. Abolition, as great as it sounded to some and as great as it sounds today, represented a gross obstruction of Constitutional rights for those who owned the slaves. It wasn't their fault, they didn't deem slaves as property, the US did.

Now you can claim.. Oh, he hadn't done anything yet... but you don't generally wait until after your Constitutional rights are violated to protest an action that will irretrievably violate your rights.

For the record, I did not ever say that slavery wasn't the main issue of secession. It was, but it wasn't because of some moral sense of right and wrong over enslavement of black people... it was because slaves were considered property under the law according to SCOTUS.

The entire problem which we fought a war over was the legality of slavery in America and the finding of the SCOTUS that slaves constituted personal property. Furthermore, finding in 1857 that the federal government had no authority to regulate slavery in any state created after the formation of the United States. Also finding that no African-American, free or otherwise, were "American citizens" and thus, had no Constitutional rights.

These were not the findings of rebellious Southerners against the will of the US... this was SCOTUS rulings which dated back years and decades before a CSA ever existed.

 

[Skylar]

And the US wasn't even proposing taking that property away.

Then it WASN'T about slavery, was it?

It was to the South. They completely overreacted, responding to conspiracy theories about slavery and their own emotion rather than the evidence. As the North wasn't even proposing outlawing Slavery in the south. Lincoln certainly wasn't.

Yet the South irrationally believed otherwise and seceded to protect an institution that no one was proposing be outlawed in the South. And as evidence of how irrational they were......South Carolina seceded before Lincoln took office. Making it impossible for them to be responding to his policy even hypothetically. As he hadn't enacted any.

It also kicks the living shit out of your 'violating their constitutional rights' argument for the same reasons.

And with the South Carolina Secession declaration that outlined their reasons for seceding citing slaves or slavery 11 times.......there's no rational argument that could be made that slavery wasn't a cause for secession and the civil war.

Its pure revisionist idiocy.

Sorry, but Lincoln campaigned on Abolition in 1860.

Um, no. He didn't. Lincoln campaigned on keeping slavery out of the territories and the new states. He never campaigned on abolishing slavery in the South. Nor even proposed it. Not in his campaign, not in his debates with Douglas, not at any time before the south had its little tantrum.

You simply don't know what the fuck you're talking about. And as the rest of your argument is predicated on the hapless blunder you just made, it too is useless.

Try again. This time reflecting on actual history. Not the silly nonsense you tell yourself.

 

[Boss]

And the US wasn't even proposing taking that property away.

Then it WASN'T about slavery, was it?

It was to the South. They completely overreacted, responding to conspiracy theories about slavery and their own emotion rather than the evidence. As the North wasn't even proposing outlawing Slavery in the south. Lincoln certainly wasn't.

Yet the South irrationally believed otherwise and seceded to protect an institution that no one was proposing be outlawed in the South. And as evidence of how irrational they were......South Carolina seceded before Lincoln took office. Making it impossible for them to be responding to his policy even hypothetically. As he hadn't enacted any.

It also kicks the living shit out of your 'violating their constitutional rights' argument for the same reasons.

And with the South Carolina Secession declaration that outlined their reasons for seceding citing slaves or slavery 11 times.......there's no rational argument that could be made that slavery wasn't a cause for secession and the civil war.

Its pure revisionist idiocy.

Sorry, but Lincoln campaigned on Abolition in 1860.

Um, no. He didn't. Lincoln campaigned on keeping slavery out of the territories and the new states. He never campaigned on abolishing slavery in the South. Nor even proposed it. Not in his campaign, not in his debates with Douglas, not at any time before the south had its little tantrum.

You simply don't know what the fuck you're talking about. And as the rest of your argument is predicated on the hapless blunder you just made, it too is useless.

Try again. This time reflecting on actual history. Not the silly nonsense you tell yourself.

You are the one who seems to be illiterate of history here. Lincoln was an abolitionist and his plan for abolition was to gradually get rid of slavery over time. (Gradual Abolition) His solution for dealing with the uncomfortable consequences of free slaves running loose in white society was to ship them off to Central America or back to Africa.

Interesting story about that... Did you know, the first time African-Americans were invited to the White House was under Lincoln? Do you know why? Do you know what happened?

 

[evince]

racists don't do facts

 

[Boss]

racists don't do facts

That explains you!

 

[Bonzi]

There were four UNION STATES, KY MD MO DE, that had legal slavery during the civil war. Those 4 states had a combined total of 400,000 slaves.!! Yes, the south had 3.6 million slaves but the point remains that both sides had slave states .

For the 8 millionth time, the CW was not about slavery. The idea is absurd. The media is telling another of it's whopper lies.

It's not - it's about political correctness and liberals trying to control people's thoughts.
They still believe in a "kumbaya" world and that John Lennon and Yoko Ono should be worshipped.
Of course, you have hell to pay (and forget kumbaya!) if you think differently!

 

[Skylar]

And the US wasn't even proposing taking that property away.

Then it WASN'T about slavery, was it?

It was to the South. They completely overreacted, responding to conspiracy theories about slavery and their own emotion rather than the evidence. As the North wasn't even proposing outlawing Slavery in the south. Lincoln certainly wasn't.

Yet the South irrationally believed otherwise and seceded to protect an institution that no one was proposing be outlawed in the South. And as evidence of how irrational they were......South Carolina seceded before Lincoln took office. Making it impossible for them to be responding to his policy even hypothetically. As he hadn't enacted any.

It also kicks the living shit out of your 'violating their constitutional rights' argument for the same reasons.

And with the South Carolina Secession declaration that outlined their reasons for seceding citing slaves or slavery 11 times.......there's no rational argument that could be made that slavery wasn't a cause for secession and the civil war.

Its pure revisionist idiocy.

Sorry, but Lincoln campaigned on Abolition in 1860.

Um, no. He didn't. Lincoln campaigned on keeping slavery out of the territories and the new states. He never campaigned on abolishing slavery in the South. Nor even proposed it. Not in his campaign, not in his debates with Douglas, not at any time before the south had its little tantrum.

You simply don't know what the fuck you're talking about. And as the rest of your argument is predicated on the hapless blunder you just made, it too is useless.

Try again. This time reflecting on actual history. Not the silly nonsense you tell yourself.

You are the one who seems to be illiterate of history here. Lincoln was an abolitionist and his plan for abolition was to gradually get rid of slavery over time. (Gradual Abolition) His solution for dealing with the uncomfortable consequences of free slaves running loose in white society was to ship them off to Central America or back to Africa.

Then it will be remarkably easy for you to show me Lincoln campaigning on Abolition. Please give us a campaign speech or two that includes his Abolition platform.

You can't. As he never did. You're arguing a fantasy based on your own ignorance. Lincoln was a former Whig, a follower of Clay. A man that believed in compromise. Lincoln argued against expanding slavery into new territories and states. He argued against popular sovereignty, a new state voting if it was to be free or slave. This was the entire basis of the Lincoln Douglas debates.

He never campaigned for abolition. And he never even proposed abolishing slavery in the south before the Civil War.

But if you believe Lincoln campaigned as an abolitionist, show me. Don't tell me, my little illiterate. You'll find that all you have are excuses why you can't.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

racists don't do facts

I know. They just demand more affirmative action and more persecution of white people. Racists are haters.

 

[evince]

your killing your party

 

[ShootSpeeders]

You are the one who seems to be illiterate of history here. Lincoln was an abolitionist and his plan for abolition was to gradually get rid of slavery over time. (Gradual Abolition) His solution for dealing with the uncomfortable consequences of free slaves running loose in white society was to ship them off to Central America or back to Africa.

Lincoln always said he was NOT an abolitionist. He opposed slavery but said he had neither the authority nor inclination to do anything about it. Eventually he issued the EP but that didn't free any slaves.

 

[Boss]

Wow, this is amazing... So what I am hearing is: Lincoln had absolutely no intention of freeing any slaves or abolishing slavery... yet this is why you claim the Civil War was fought?

 

[MikeK]

No, but that still doesn't make their enslavement a "good" thing. It just so happens that their ancestors benefited in some ways. Obviously, slavery is still a quite painful issue for some (a lot) of black people.

Prof. Williams didn't say slavery is a good thing. What he essentially said is the end result of it is good for most descendants of Black African slaves in America.

 

[Syriusly]

racists don't do facts

I know. They just demand more affirmative action and more persecution of white people. Racists are haters.

You poor, poor persecuted white person.

How would you live your life if you could not complain about being a victim......

 

[Syriusly]

You are the one who seems to be illiterate of history here. Lincoln was an abolitionist and his plan for abolition was to gradually get rid of slavery over time. (Gradual Abolition) His solution for dealing with the uncomfortable consequences of free slaves running loose in white society was to ship them off to Central America or back to Africa.

Lincoln always said he was NOT an abolitionist. He opposed slavery but said he had neither the authority nor inclination to do anything about it. Eventually he issued the EP but that didn't free any slaves.

You actually had a post that had something correct- all the way up to the Emancipation Proclamation- when you spewed the revisionists BS line.

All of the slaves in the territories marked in red were immediately freed by the Emancipation Proclamation- an estimated 20,000 slaves.

All of the areas is pink (or taupe) were the areas that eventually had all of the slaves freed by the Emancipation Proclamation. The Emancipation Proclamation freed the majority of slaves in America.

 

[Skylar]

Wow, this is amazing... So what I am hearing is: Lincoln had absolutely no intention of freeing any slaves or abolishing slavery... yet this is why you claim the Civil War was fought?

Show us. Don't tell us.

You claim Lincoln campaigned as an abolitionist. I say you're completely full of shit and offering us revisionist fantasies based on your own imagination and hapless ignorance.

Show us some of Lincoln's campaign speeches as an Abolitionist. Its remarkably simple. I mean, if its as well known as you claim, it should be trivial in difficulty.

And yet.......you've still got nothing. Why is that do you think?

 

[Boss]

You are the one who seems to be illiterate of history here. Lincoln was an abolitionist and his plan for abolition was to gradually get rid of slavery over time. (Gradual Abolition) His solution for dealing with the uncomfortable consequences of free slaves running loose in white society was to ship them off to Central America or back to Africa.

Lincoln always said he was NOT an abolitionist. He opposed slavery but said he had neither the authority nor inclination to do anything about it. Eventually he issued the EP but that didn't free any slaves.

You actually had a post that had something correct- all the way up to the Emancipation Proclamation- when you spewed the revisionists BS line.

All of the slaves in the territories marked in red were immediately freed by the Emancipation Proclamation- an estimated 20,000 slaves.

All of the areas is pink (or taupe) were the areas that eventually had all of the slaves freed by the Emancipation Proclamation. The Emancipation Proclamation freed the majority of slaves in America.

You will note, all the "freed slaves" are in the CSA. Lincoln had no authority in the CSA.

What Lincoln did was actually a very questionable Constitutional act. As CinC of the military, he is authorized to seize enemy property in the name of "spoils of war" or as military strategy. This is why it could not pertain to the 400k slaves in the blue areas of your map.

If you contend the CSA was never a country in it's own right, and the Confederacy was simply a rebellion of US citizens, then the Emancipation Proclamation is unconstitutional.

Slaves in the United States were not free until ratification of the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments.

 

[RKMBrown]

There were four UNION STATES, KY MD MO DE, that had legal slavery during the civil war. Those 4 states had a combined total of 400,000 slaves.!! Yes, the south had 3.6 million slaves but the point remains that both sides had slave states .

For the 8 millionth time, the CW was not about slavery. The idea is absurd. The media is telling another of it's whopper lies.

Southerners have a unique culture, accents, and don't agree with Northerners on a great many topics. As such, you'll consistently see Northerners talking down on Southerners out of hand. This brings out a great deal of mutual dislike.

 

[Skylar]

You are the one who seems to be illiterate of history here. Lincoln was an abolitionist and his plan for abolition was to gradually get rid of slavery over time. (Gradual Abolition) His solution for dealing with the uncomfortable consequences of free slaves running loose in white society was to ship them off to Central America or back to Africa.

Lincoln always said he was NOT an abolitionist. He opposed slavery but said he had neither the authority nor inclination to do anything about it. Eventually he issued the EP but that didn't free any slaves.

You actually had a post that had something correct- all the way up to the Emancipation Proclamation- when you spewed the revisionists BS line.

All of the slaves in the territories marked in red were immediately freed by the Emancipation Proclamation- an estimated 20,000 slaves.

All of the areas is pink (or taupe) were the areas that eventually had all of the slaves freed by the Emancipation Proclamation. The Emancipation Proclamation freed the majority of slaves in America.

You will note, all the "freed slaves" are in the CSA. Lincoln had no authority in the CSA.

Sure he did. As the United States includes all of the States, sharing concurrent jurisdiction with every State. There is no territory within a State that the federal government is not also a sovereign over.

And in order to make any territorial decisions both sovereigns have to agree. The federal government couldn't cede state land to another state or power without the agreement of the State in question. And the State couldn't cede territory without the agreement of the federal government.

Take.....the District of Columbia. It took the agreement of Virginia, Maryland and the Federal Government before the District was created. None of them could do it alone. As they share jurisdiction over all territory within a State.

Consequently, its quite impossible for South Carolina or any State to by itself and unilaterally make any territorial decisions without the agreement of the Federal government. And the Federal Government didn't agree to cede any territory. So there was no change in territory. With all the 'Confederate States' still sharing jurisdiction with the US federal government.

And establishing federal jurisdiction.

 

[Boss]

Wow, this is amazing... So what I am hearing is: Lincoln had absolutely no intention of freeing any slaves or abolishing slavery... yet this is why you claim the Civil War was fought?

Show us. Don't tell us.

You claim Lincoln campaigned as an abolitionist. I say you're completely full of shit and offering us revisionist fantasies based on your own imagination and hapless ignorance.

Show us some of Lincoln's campaign speeches as an Abolitionist. Its remarkably simple. I mean, if its as well known as you claim, it should be trivial in difficulty.

And yet.......you've still got nothing. Why is that do you think?

I don't need to show you anything, you need to educate yourself on history a little bit. Lincoln was an abolitionist who felt the best way to abolish slavery was through a gradual course to full emancipation. No, he was not a part of the activist Abolitionist movement. Yes he did support ending slavery, aka: abolition.