With gun violence down, is America arming against an imagined threat?

[Spoonman]

Interesting stat.....but what does it mean?

Does it mean we are safer?
Does it mean guns are not a problem in this country?

To me it means the chosen start point, 1993, represents the worst case of American gun violence. In 1993 we were in the middle of the crack wars as gangs fought over the influx of crack dollars. 1993 was in an era when America had the equivalent of the Mexican Drug Cartel wars.

Since 1993, Crack has had a decreasing influence on crime and our gun deaths dropped accordingly

Does it mean we have won? No
Does it mean we no longer have problems with gun violence? No it doesn't

so you are saying if you reduce crime you have a lower rate of murders. what a concept. it has nothing to do with guns but everything to do with dealing with the real issues. see rightwinger, if you try hard enough, even you can get it right

Well, lets discuss the real issues of gun violence in this country

It is not bad guys shooting at eachother. It is people shooting people they know. 60% of shooting victims know their assailant.
It is about domestic violence. Shooting spouses and loved ones
It is about suicide

All of these are exacerbated by a ready access to guns in our homes

yea lets talk about the real gun issues. of all guns in america .000036 ever commit a homicide. expand that to deadly assault weapons and that number is .0000011. 4 ot of 5 homicides happen in the states with the toughest gun laws. 1 out of 5 happens in the states with limited gun laws. chicago alone accounts for 5% of all gun murders. one city. the more guns we have the lower our total rate of homicides with a gun becomes. but guns are the issue? yea right. 20,000,000 new permits for gun permits last year. now that represnts only the states that require permits and that is only for pistols. so new people owning guns. not existing people buying more. but still gun homicides continues to drop. you can not show one statistic that proves more guns equals more deaths. you can not show one statistic that shows gun legislation reduces the rate of homicides compared to homicide levels without gun legislation.

 

[Circe]

No more than high buildings and bridges enable jumpers. And yes, the rate of successful suicides is higher with handguns. It is much more certain, and much less painful than alternative methods, and that is why it is a preferred method for those who wish to off themselves.

Very sensible, then. And God bless 'em. Clear out of the way and let people who want to live get on with things.

 

[Circe]

Well, lets discuss the real issues of gun violence in this country

It is not bad guys shooting at eachother. It is people shooting people they know. 60% of shooting victims know their assailant.
It is about domestic violence. Shooting spouses and loved ones
It is about suicide

All of these are exacerbated by a ready access to guns in our homes

Suicide doesn't matter: not relevant, nobody cares about that in the gun control discussion.

Do you happen to know how the stats break down if suicide is taken out of the equation?

That is, what percentage are stranger shootings (crime, crazies, etc.) and what percentage are domestic violence, drug deal enforcement, etc.?

I don't mean to make work for you, but you cited a figure, 60%, so I thought you might know the numbers on that.

 

[Spoonman]

Well, lets discuss the real issues of gun violence in this country

It is not bad guys shooting at eachother. It is people shooting people they know. 60% of shooting victims know their assailant.
It is about domestic violence. Shooting spouses and loved ones
It is about suicide

All of these are exacerbated by a ready access to guns in our homes

Suicide doesn't matter: not relevant, nobody cares about that in the gun control discussion.

Do you happen to know how the stats break down if suicide is taken out of the equation?

That is, what percentage are stranger shootings (crime, crazies, etc.) and what percentage are domestic violence, drug deal enforcement, etc.?

I don't mean to make work for you, but you cited a figure, 60%, so I thought you might know the numbers on that.

i'm not even sure what difference the 60% number would make. if your pissed off at someone enough to kill them, you'll kill them, gun or no gun.

 

[rightwinger]

Well, lets discuss the real issues of gun violence in this country

It is not bad guys shooting at eachother. It is people shooting people they know. 60% of shooting victims know their assailant.
It is about domestic violence. Shooting spouses and loved ones
It is about suicide

All of these are exacerbated by a ready access to guns in our homes

Suicide doesn't matter: not relevant, nobody cares about that in the gun control discussion.

Do you happen to know how the stats break down if suicide is taken out of the equation?

That is, what percentage are stranger shootings (crime, crazies, etc.) and what percentage are domestic violence, drug deal enforcement, etc.?

I don't mean to make work for you, but you cited a figure, 60%, so I thought you might know the numbers on that.

Suicide does matter

Those suffering from severe depression should not be allowed access to guns. Accident waiting to happen

 

[Spoonman]

Well, lets discuss the real issues of gun violence in this country

It is not bad guys shooting at eachother. It is people shooting people they know. 60% of shooting victims know their assailant.
It is about domestic violence. Shooting spouses and loved ones
It is about suicide

All of these are exacerbated by a ready access to guns in our homes

Suicide doesn't matter: not relevant, nobody cares about that in the gun control discussion.

Do you happen to know how the stats break down if suicide is taken out of the equation?

That is, what percentage are stranger shootings (crime, crazies, etc.) and what percentage are domestic violence, drug deal enforcement, etc.?

I don't mean to make work for you, but you cited a figure, 60%, so I thought you might know the numbers on that.

Suicide does matter

Those suffering from severe depression should not be allowed access to guns. Accident waiting to happen

at least they aren't slitting their wrists or drinking drano

 

[Spoonman]

Well, lets discuss the real issues of gun violence in this country

It is not bad guys shooting at eachother. It is people shooting people they know. 60% of shooting victims know their assailant.
It is about domestic violence. Shooting spouses and loved ones
It is about suicide

All of these are exacerbated by a ready access to guns in our homes

Suicide doesn't matter: not relevant, nobody cares about that in the gun control discussion.

Do you happen to know how the stats break down if suicide is taken out of the equation?

That is, what percentage are stranger shootings (crime, crazies, etc.) and what percentage are domestic violence, drug deal enforcement, etc.?

I don't mean to make work for you, but you cited a figure, 60%, so I thought you might know the numbers on that.

Suicide does matter

Those suffering from severe depression should not be allowed access to guns. Accident waiting to happen

come to think about it, I'm thinking about the people I know who have commited suicide. mostly hangings, a slit wrist and a few drug overdoses. a plastic bag over the head. one stepped in front of a train. but i honestly can't think of one that used a gun.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Suicide does matter

Those suffering from severe depression should not be allowed access to guns. Accident waiting to happen

Or bridges, or razor blades, or ropes, or belts, or poisons.

You Communists are so full of shit.

 

[Uncensored2008]

come to think about it, I'm thinking about the people I know who have commited suicide. mostly hangings, a slit wrist and a few drug overdoses. a plastic bag over the head. one stepped in front of a train. but i honestly can't think of one that used a gun.

I ride the Metrolink to work. These fuckers stepping in front of trains are the most inconsiderate bastards on the planet. WE get stuck for 4 to 5 hours because some shit head can't deal with life. Have some fucking consideration and blow your brains out! Don't impose on 500 people for half a day.

 

[Spoonman]

come to think about it, I'm thinking about the people I know who have commited suicide. mostly hangings, a slit wrist and a few drug overdoses. a plastic bag over the head. one stepped in front of a train. but i honestly can't think of one that used a gun.

I ride the Metrolink to work. These fuckers stepping in front of trains are the most inconsiderate bastards on the planet. WE get stuck for 4 to 5 hours because some shit head can't deal with life. Have some fucking consideration and blow your brains out! Don't impose on 500 people for half a day.

we supply birth control to kids, allow them to have abortions. we should supply guns to people who want to take themselves out.

 

[Uncensored2008]

we supply birth control to kids, allow them to have abortions. we should supply guns to people who want to take themselves out.

Absolutely.

 

[FA_Q2]

Jon -

No, it is not up since the introduction of gun control.



UK murder rate has fallen by half since 2003 and every region is safer


Read more: UK Peace Index: Rate of murders and violent crime falling faster than anywhere in Western Europe | Mail Online

Another liberal who cannot read a chart. Your chart clearly shows a rise in gun violence after the measure was introduced, and it is still higher than previously.
Many things could explain the shift, like an aging population.

In any case, Britain is not the U.S. So comparisons are off base.

Rabbi -

This is another literacy issue - we were discussing homicides (the bottom line of the chart) not violent crime, which you refer to here.

I hope you will have the cojones to admit that.

Take a Step -

Please do not spam the thread. Learn to scroll past what does not interest you.

To bring this back us as your claims tend to hinge on it and you have failed to answer:

Can you link to the gun control measure that you are referring to? Nowhere did I see what defines the pink area in the mail online article. AFAIK, the last major legislation for gun control was passed in 1997 and that virtually outlawed weapons. The reduction in crime a decade later cannot be attributed to that, particularly considering the massive spike in-between. That is correlation without causation. This is even more highlighted by the fact that the UK has had an increasing homicide rate throughout all its previous gun control measures. If that was the cause that dropped rates, why has it only started working now and not during all the other harsh gun control laws that were passed?


Excuse me if it was linked earlier. I have not seen it.

 

[FA_Q2]

Does Canada have large populations of inner city blacks? Does Canada have large populations of illegal Mexicans?

Germany, France and the UK all have "inner city blacks", yes.

Shall we compare those stats?

Deaths by guns, per capita:

USA 10.20

UK 0.25

Germany 1.05

France 3.00

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note that the UK murder rate is now much lower than other EU countries, probably due to the gun laws.

Death by ‘gun’ is a meaningless stat and obscures actual meaningful data by placing a screen on it. If gun deaths have but overall homicide rate doubles we have not mad progress. As a matter fact, we have lost ground. In that light, stop looking at ‘gun’ deaths as it is engineered to fit preconceived notions. Compare outright homicide rates.

Another point is that homicide rate between one country and another is an invalid comparison. I would bet that it has already been brought up but to bring it home, comparing countries with each other ignores the MASSIVE number of variables involved. Culture, racial makeup/tensions, gang prevalence, drug runners, borders, immigrant populations, population density etc. all factor into these numbers. Numbers from Tennessee can’t even be used in comparison to numbers in LA – even per capital – as the relationship is meaningless. The reason that LA or Tennessee has a higher/lower homicide rate likely has nothing to do with gun laws but a LOT to do with population differences. The ONLY way to account for these variables is comparing before and after homicide rates in a single area. See what gun control has done in Canada, UK and Chicago or gun law relaxation in Texas or Florida.

 

[The Rabbi]

no. its a fact. you don't have nearly the amount of blacks and mexicans in european cities.

Stats? Link?

Because the stats I have here show that cities like Rotterdam, Birmingham and Vienna have higher rates of immigrants than most US cities.

You made the claim - let's see your stats first.

btw. Do you know what a capital letter is? Use them!

Dishonestly moving the goal posts? Immigrants does not equate with blacks and Mexicans.
Oops.

You seem to be at a severe disadvantage here.

 

[9thIDdoc]

Well, lets discuss the real issues of gun violence in this country

It is not bad guys shooting at eachother. It is people shooting people they know. 60% of shooting victims know their assailant.
It is about domestic violence. Shooting spouses and loved ones
It is about suicide

All of these are exacerbated by a ready access to guns in our homes

Suicide doesn't matter: not relevant, nobody cares about that in the gun control discussion.

Do you happen to know how the stats break down if suicide is taken out of the equation?

That is, what percentage are stranger shootings (crime, crazies, etc.) and what percentage are domestic violence, drug deal enforcement, etc.?

I don't mean to make work for you, but you cited a figure, 60%, so I thought you might know the numbers on that.

Suicide does matter

Those suffering from severe depression should not be allowed access to guns. Accident waiting to happen

Suicides are not accidental. Nor are they always a bad thing. Having a method of suicide available that is quick and painless is a good thing. Everyone dies. Who are you to tell someone they have to die in a method you prefer?

 

[rightwinger]

Suicide doesn't matter: not relevant, nobody cares about that in the gun control discussion.

Do you happen to know how the stats break down if suicide is taken out of the equation?

That is, what percentage are stranger shootings (crime, crazies, etc.) and what percentage are domestic violence, drug deal enforcement, etc.?

I don't mean to make work for you, but you cited a figure, 60%, so I thought you might know the numbers on that.

Suicide does matter

Those suffering from severe depression should not be allowed access to guns. Accident waiting to happen

Suicides are not accidental. Nor are they always a bad thing. Having a method of suicide available that is quick and painless is a good thing. Everyone dies. Who are you to tell someone they have to die in a method you prefer?

I prefer a method that does not take a split second and is irreversible

 

[The Rabbi]

Suicide does matter

Those suffering from severe depression should not be allowed access to guns. Accident waiting to happen

Suicides are not accidental. Nor are they always a bad thing. Having a method of suicide available that is quick and painless is a good thing. Everyone dies. Who are you to tell someone they have to die in a method you prefer?

I prefer a method that does not take a split second and is irreversible

Most suicide is irreversible. Death is just like that.

 

[HomeInspect]

3. Guns sales are up in record numbers in the past few years, while shootings/murders are down.

Well, sounds like people having guns is working to some extent, if killings are going down so much.

It's a two-edged sword. There is no question but that people love killing people, so crazies and terrorists are going to kill more if assault rifles and explosives and so on are easily available. Duh! The easier it is, the more it will happen: that's true of ANYthing, including eating fast food. It's certainly true of the killing of first-graders: the easier it is, the more it happens.

On the other side of the sword, an armed populace ready to defend their homes and themselves is bound to result in criminals not being as willing to mug people and burglarize, because they are a lot more likely to be killed than in, say, Britain, where criminals walk all over everyone and the police don't care or do anything, unless the victimized person tries to defend him or herself, and they they put the victim in prison. I don't want to see that happen here. I want strong self-defense laws, including the Florida ones.

However, the crazies and terrorists are a real epidemic now. It would be so much better if we just had quick capital punishment: just took people like that Cleveland monster to trial next week and executed him the week after. And the same with any of these types, like James Holmes, the Batman shooter. Quick trial and execution would solve so many of the problems this society has now.

Argument can be made too that the reason shooting are down is because of more guns. What's the most common thing that stops a bad guy with a gun? ... a good guy with a gun

 

[HomeInspect]

Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber,

but after a shooting, the mindless blame the gun!

 

[rdean]

Republicans and gun violence: