With gun violence down, is America arming against an imagined threat?

[legaleagle_45]

No, I cannot imagine that because it is not true.

The homicide rate in the UK has risen since 1920 (what a surprise!), but has fallen sharply since gun control was introduced.

The first modern gun control legislation was introduced in the UK in 1920. The avowed purpose was crime control, the real reason was that the Lords and Lordettes were terrified with a little dustup which was occuring in Russia at the time.

Prior to the advent of modern gun control, the UK had a homicide rate which averaged at between 0.70/100,000 and 0.80/100,000 for the previous 20 years. It now stands at about 1.2/100,000

It is now at its lowest point since 1983.

Meanwhile, in the USA over the last 20 years the number of firearms in private hands has doubled, gun laws have been dramatically relaxed and the homicide rate has fallen to levels not seen since the early 60's... with the homicide rate being reduced by more than half... a reduction substantially greater than that seen by the UK in the same time frame.

 

[Saigon]

Rabbi -

No, actually Germany and France do not have large populations of inner city American blacks.

Um....seriously?

Is this really your strongest argument, do you think?

Because to my mind the argument that the US can not be compared to France because there are no American people in France is simply infantile.

btw. If you think any chart presented does not say what I claim it says, feel free to say so at the time it is posted. Or give me the post# now, and we can look at it again.

 

[Saigon]

Legal -

with the homicide rate being reduced by more than half... a reduction substantially greater than that seen by the UK in the same time frame.

Really?

"UK murder rate has fallen by half since 2003 and every region is safer"

Read more: UK Peace Index: Rate of murders and violent crime falling faster than anywhere in Western Europe | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

So how is the fall in US numbers greater than that in the UK?

Also, do you consider the fact that the murder rate by gun in the US is TWENTY TIMES greater than that in the UK a good thing?

 

[Saigon]

I think this needs to be presented again, it's from WaPo:

Rabbi and Legal Eagle triumph the fall in murders, but quite how well is the US doing?

I'd say there is room for improvement.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Your opinion is irrelevant.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Your opinion is irrelevant.

She refuses to discuss w/ any degree of honesty - and so, you simply waste your time.

 

[legaleagle_45]

This is a literacy issue, so you may need to re-read the material..

OK, I did so, now your turn. This is what you said:

Personally, I think 12,663 homicides compared to 554 in Canada and 41 in the UK is a tragedy and a damning indictment of the attitudes in the US towards civil rights, freedom and human life, but if you think it's a great number, then go with that.

The 12,663 is total US homicides, not merely those associated with firearms. The 554 in Canada were all homicides and not those merely associated with firearms... but the 41 in the UK were merely firearm related homicides and there is not mention or qualification by you that they are solely firearm related. Obviously, you have a literacy related problem, huh?

There were 41 gun-related homicides in the UK - not 41 homicides total.

Yet you were comparing it to the total number of homicides in the US and Canada, not just firearm related homicides and you did not qualify your statement as such... obviously you have a literacy related problem, huh?

And yes, the murder rate in the UK is now at its lowest point since 1983, well down on recent years.

Well "well down" is a matter of opinion, since it has fallen only about 2 tenths of the previous rate per 100,000. Meanwhile in the USA the homicide rate has been cut more than half, dropping over 5 full points in the last 20 years to levels not seen since the early 60's and late 50's. .. and the number of fireams in private hands has doubled and gun laws have been relaxed.

Here is some more history for you. Prior to the invention of the firearm, the homicide rate in Europe was 20 to 30 times greater than it is today. Simultaneously with the the invention of the firearm, homicide rates began a sharp and steady decline which corresponded with the availability and functionality of firearms.... that drop in rates continued unabated until the early 20th century and the introduction of modern gun control legislation, at which point, homicide rates leveled off and even went up slightly.

 

[Saigon]

Legal -

Yet you were comparing it to the total number of homicides in the US and Canada, not just firearm related homicides and you did not qualify your statement as such..

Yes, you are quite right, and I aplogise for confusing the Canadian figure.

The fact remains that the US has the highest homicide rate AND highest gun-related homicide rate in the developed world, and with statistics often 20 times worse than your major trading partners.

I don't understand why you consider that a success.

Well "well down" is a matter of opinion,

Yes, but this line from the Daily Mirror (UK) is not - and I have already posted it twice: "UK murder rate has fallen by half"

the introduction of modern gun control legislation, at which point, homicide rates leveled off and even went up slightly.

A "fact" completely contradicted by the statement from the Daily Mirror above.

Here is a good chart which shows the total Canadian stat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Canada

 

[Saigon]

She refuses to discuss w/ any degree of honesty - and so, you simply waste your time.

As Rabbi predicted:

Because when you did back up the claim (and it is obviously true) he would a) demean the source, b) deflect to something unrelated, c) wimp out and never be heard from until he posted the same nonsense elsewhere.

There is no persuading the incomprehending.

Everything that I have posted on this thread, and I mean EVERYTHING can be backed up from reliable sources, and has been linked as such.

Could it be any more obvious that you simply run away?

 

[legaleagle_45]

Legal -

with the homicide rate being reduced by more than half... a reduction substantially greater than that seen by the UK in the same time frame.

Really?

Yes really.. your stats are based upon incomplete data from a partial year sampeling in 2012. Official stats are only availabel for 2011 and years previous and those are here:

List of countries by intentional homicide rate by decade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So how is the fall in US numbers greater than that in the UK?

Quite simply, the homicide rate fell by over 5 points in the 20 year period from 1991 to 2011 in the USA. In the uk it fell less than 0.20 points.

TWENTY TIMES[/B] greater than that in the UK a good thing?

Obviously that is false. The homicide rate differential is not anywhere near 20 times greater.... you must be having the literacy problem again, huh?

BTW, UK stats are cooked so that they do not include either Scotland or Northern Ireland.

 

[Spoonman]

Rabbi -

Firstly, please admit that you read the chart wrongly, whilst accusing others of doing so. It's just what an honest person would do.

Secondly:

Violent crime has fallen in every western country during the same period.

And yet:

"Rate of murders and violent crime falling faster than anywhere in Western Europe"

The rate of murders in the UK is now significantly lower than in France, for instance.

Thirdly:

The gun laws were irrelevant to that trend.

And yet the UK police have triumphed the success of the laws, and you yourself can see the impact of the laws in the chart provided.

but the rate of murders in the USA has fallen at the same rate as in the UK. and we have more guns

 

[Saigon]

Legal Eagle -

The homicide rate differential is not anywhere near 20 times greater.... you must be having the literacy problem again, huh?

US 10.20

UK 0.25

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My orignal claim:

Also, do you consider the fact that the murder rate by gun in the US is TWENTY TIMES greater than that in the UK a good thing?

So yes - I think literacy is an issue here.

I very much hope you will have the cojones to admit your error.

 

[legaleagle_45]

Legal -

Yes, you are quite right, and I aplogise for confusing the Canadian figure.

And the US figure... which is also total homicides.

The fact remains that the US has the highest homicide rate AND highest gun-related homicide rate in the developed world, and with statistics often 20 times worse than your major trading partners.

Gun related homicides is irrelevant because of of the issue of substitution....unless it is your view that it is worse to be murdered by a gun than a knife? The total homicide rate in the US is not anywhere near 20 times worse. The fact is that the US has traditionally had higher homicide rates than than those in Europe going back to the colonial days and well before Europe instituted modern gun control in the early 20th century.

Correlation is not equivalent to causation. Have you ever considered even for a moment that the US is the most culturally, ethinically, religously and racially diverse country in the history of the universe and that this may make the USA an outlier?

Perhaps you can explain to me the USA NON FIREARM related homicide rates are significantly higher than the total homicide rates for the UK? Perhaps guns give off evil vibes which compel people to murder other people with knives and clubs?

 

[Spoonman]

Does Canada have large populations of inner city blacks? Does Canada have large populations of illegal Mexicans?

Germany, France and the UK all have "inner city blacks", yes.

Shall we compare those stats?

Deaths by guns, per capita:

USA 10.20

UK 0.25

Germany 1.05

France 3.00

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note that the UK murder rate is now much lower than other EU countries, probably due to the gun laws.

yea like 6. but they don't have mexcians

 

[Spoonman]

Legal -

with the homicide rate being reduced by more than half... a reduction substantially greater than that seen by the UK in the same time frame.

Really?

"UK murder rate has fallen by half since 2003 and every region is safer"

Read more: UK Peace Index: Rate of murders and violent crime falling faster than anywhere in Western Europe | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

So how is the fall in US numbers greater than that in the UK?

Also, do you consider the fact that the murder rate by gun in the US is TWENTY TIMES greater than that in the UK a good thing?

yes the murder rate has fallen in the USA as fast as that in the UK. that is a simple fact that continues to elude you. and we didn't need a ridiculous gun ban to do it. in fact our gun numbers have closed to doubled. so we have decreased more, with more guns. guns are not the problem

 

[Spoonman]

She refuses to discuss w/ any degree of honesty - and so, you simply waste your time.

As Rabbi predicted:

Because when you did back up the claim (and it is obviously true) he would a) demean the source, b) deflect to something unrelated, c) wimp out and never be heard from until he posted the same nonsense elsewhere.

There is no persuading the incomprehending.

Everything that I have posted on this thread, and I mean EVERYTHING can be backed up from reliable sources, and has been linked as such.

Could it be any more obvious that you simply run away?

but everything you posted is pretty much meaningless because it either compares an apple to an orange or does not prove guns are an issue.

 

[Saigon]

Legal -

Perhaps you can explain to me the USA NON FIREARM related homicide rates are significantly higher than the total homicide rates for the UK?

We can't be sure, of course, but it may be that the rate of attacks involving all weapons would always be slightly higher in the US than UK.

What is an absolute clincher to anyone objective is that when we compare rates of different kinds of homicide - knifing, bombing, gun-related etc - it is only GUN-RELATED crime in which the US is wildly out of step with international statistics.

I can't see why anyone would deny that.

 

[Saigon]

yea like 6. but they don't have mexcians

That is not an argument, spoon, that is just racism.

 

[Spoonman]

Rabbi -

Actually, no, it makes perfect sense. Guns do not cause violence - they ENABLE violence. In other words, they allow people who may wish to commit violence to do so more successfully.

That is why countries with more guns have more morders, of course.


Well, obviously they do - but what you mean is that they do not back up your case, hence you ignore them.

Actually that isn't true either. Japan has a high suicide rate but no guns to speak of. Etc etc. This has been debunked many times. It is an issue of culture, not gun ownership.
The stats don't matter to an individual's decision to go armed because he doesn't want to end up as a statistic. Sorry that wasn't clear enough for you.

Seriously.

When you start throwing stuff like this into the mix, it really shows complete desperation.

wrong, he made that post because saigon claimed that nations with more guns had a higher rate of suicide. the UK, Japan, China, countries with no guns have higher suicide rates then the USA. His point was totally valid

 

[Spoonman]

Jon -

Please look at the graph. The gun control laws were passed in 2003, and are marked in pink.

Notice that the rate of murders now is lower than in 2003.

Thus, the rate of murders is now lower than it was when laws were passed.

I hope that is now clear for you.

so? we lifted our assault weapons ban and our rates have dropped just as quickly while we have nearly doubled the ammount of guns we have. how does your chart prove gun control works?