World's Largest Solar Plant to burn Trillions!!!!!

[Abraham3]

I call you a liar when you lie. They were always planning to burn gas overnight to maintain the temperature of the working fluid. That's no change at all. That they should ask for authorization to burn gas at any time day or night does not mean they plan on burning gas 24 hours a day.

And did you do the math yet? For starters, have you learned the difference between a billion and a trillion? More importantly, have you learned to be honest?

 

[elektra]

I call you a liar when you lie. They were always planning to burn gas overnight to maintain the temperature of the working fluid. That's no change at all. That they should ask for authorization to burn gas at any time day or night does not mean they plan on burning gas 24 hours a day.

And did you do the math yet? For starters, have you learned the difference between a billion and a trillion? More importantly, have you learned to be honest?

Yet they must burn gas all day and night and they state this explicitly. Math? No need to address math as we watch you flip and flop and not make sense.

First abraHAM states I lie when I point out a fact such as 24/7 gas burning, I counter simply with a fact, nightime preservation boilers. Now abraHAM acts as if abraHAM knew this yet abraHAM still argues that they will not burn gas 24/7? They may?

I will quote some stuff when I finish analyzing data tonight for Turkey Point up here at AREVA in Benicia.

But, go ahead and dig your hole ripper.

 

[Abraham3]

OOh, wow! Turkey Point! Areva! Benicia! You must really be somebody.

ps, you're still lying. Ivanpah has absolutely no intention to burn gas 24/7. Ivanpah will still produce more than 92% of their power from solar. And however Ivanpah operates

HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE VALIDITY OF AGW.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

http://www.kcet.org/news/rewire/TN201928_20140326T164429_Ivanpah_Petition_to_Amend_No_4.pdf

 Auxiliary boilers typically need to operate an average of approximately 4.5 hours
a day2 during startup (an increase from 1 hour daily average originally expected)
in order to ensure that (1) steam flow is sufficient to carry excess heat from the
receivers in the towers, and (2) when weather conditions are sufficient to permit
plant operation, plant equipment and systems are ready to operate as designed.
 Actual operation of the plants informs the need for additional fuel use during
some days to compensate for intermittent cloud cover in order to maintain peak
power production and prevent the steam turbine from tripping off line.
 When cloud cover is dense enough and/or persists long enough to trip the plant
offline, steam generated by the auxiliary boilers is needed to restart solar power
production.
 Auxiliary boiler operation is needed at the end of the day to stabilize/support
steam turbine operation, particularly during the peak summer period, to maximize
the capture of solar energy as solar insolation declines.

 

[Abraham3]

Those boilers are not running 24 hours a day and the largest increase was with the auxiliary boilers - not the mains.

And, again, aside from correcting the glee you're all enjoying over this, I couldn't give a rat's ass how well the thing operates. It is irrelevant. Human GHG emissions are causing the planet to warm and that increased temperature presents a significant threat.

 

[elektra]

OOh, wow! Turkey Point! Areva! Benicia! You must really be somebody.

ps, you're still lying. Ivanpah has absolutely no intention to burn gas 24/7. Ivanpah will still produce more than 92% of their power from solar. And however Ivanpah operates

HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE VALIDITY OF AGW.[/size]

Ivanpah has to burn gas 24/7, what do you think the nighttime preservation boiler operates on? Its gas, I would go as far to say the turbines will turn 24/7 and that they will be turned using steam. Turbines simply are not stopped and left with the tons of weight resting in one spot, on bearings, they spin continuously. and yes, Areva, I have watched Areva do maintenance on the Turbines, and its also very typical when entering a power plant to enter through turbine building. Just saying, at least I have seen them and actually inspected as well as analyzed data acquired from steam turbines. abraHAM you repeatedly prove you know nothing about the simple basics of how Solar Thermal operates let alone a real Power Plant. So when one states Ivanpah will operate 24/7, I am kind of baiting you, cause I know for a fact that the turbines must always turn as well as the "operating fluid" must be kept at a temperature close to its operating temperature.

So tell us abraHAM, why does Ivanpah need 24 hours of auxiliary boiler operation (natural gas fired boilers, abraHAM) approved and written into the operating licence if its as AbraHAM states;

Ivanpah has absolutely no intention to burn gas 24/7

http://www.kcet.org/news/rewire/TN201928_20140326T164429_Ivanpah_Petition_to_Amend_No_4.pdf

Petition to Amend
Air Quality Conditions of
Certification for Ivanpah Solar
Electric Generating System

The current permit provides operating flexibility by allowing 24 hours of auxiliary boiler operation on any given day. The Applicant does not propose to change this

abraHAM is stating Ivanpah has no intention to do what Ivanpah wrote into the Air Quality Certification.

abraHAM, speaking of Ivanpah and no emissions, or more correctly as we can now see, 24/7 pollution from the Worlds largest Solar Joke, I think it would be fun to quote abraHAM's previous posts on, "Ivanpah will produce no GHG's" (if I may paraphrase).

 

[elektra]

Forget the link to the article, read the actual Air Quality Condition of Certification.

http://www.kcet.org/news/rewire/TN201928_20140326T164429_Ivanpah_Petition_to_Amend_No_4.pdf

There ya go, straight from the horses mouth, a actual legal doc with real stuff to talk about, not an article or press release masquerading as science or fact.

And this is where it takes just a bit more intelligence, hang on abraHAM, this request is to take the breaks off of the main natural gas boilers (there are two per plant).

Do you actually think this change is for simply a little increase in gas, you see, the real change is to allow 100% power production from the boilers, the are currently restricted to a 5% limit.

Watch, I will get a math lesson from abraHAM telling me that 5 more than 1 = 60%.

This is the sentence that Ivanpah is asking to be eliminated, this amendment throws away any restrictions on producing power with natural gas.

AQ-SC10 The ISEGS 1, ISEGS 2, and ISEGS 3 boilers shall not exceed a total
annual natural gas fuel heat input that is more than 5 percent of the total annual
heat input from the sun for ISEGS1, ISEGS2, and ISEGS 3, respectively. T

http://www.kcet.org/news/rewire/TN201928_20140326T164429_Ivanpah_Petition_to_Amend_No_4.pdf

 

[westwall]

OOh, wow! Turkey Point! Areva! Benicia! You must really be somebody.

ps, you're still lying. Ivanpah has absolutely no intention to burn gas 24/7. Ivanpah will still produce more than 92% of their power from solar. And however Ivanpah operates

HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE VALIDITY OF AGW.

That's because THERE IS NO VALIDITY TO THE FAILED THEORY OF AGW!

See, I can make it big too.

 

[SSDD]

Read the article. Do the math. I assume you can do the math.



Ivanpah will not burn gas 24 hours a day. I don't know where you even dreamed that one up. Ivanpah will still produce the vast majority of her output via solar. The gas she will burn will be a tiny fraction of what a gas plant her size would burn.



The only lies we've seen so far have come, I'm afraid, from you.

24/7 I say and as abraHAM knows, I quote sources. Read the permit linked to in the article or for fun, study the actual design and see the thing called NIGHTTIME PRESERVATION BOILER.



24 hours a day the worlds largest solar plant will burn natural gas. At least this is what the owners state in all the applications filed and posted online.



AbraHAM calls me liar when I quote the owner"s applications.

Abe is an idiot, high on the koolaid. What do you expect?

 

[flacaltenn]

Forget the link to the article, read the actual Air Quality Condition of Certification.

http://www.kcet.org/news/rewire/TN201928_20140326T164429_Ivanpah_Petition_to_Amend_No_4.pdf

There ya go, straight from the horses mouth, a actual legal doc with real stuff to talk about, not an article or press release masquerading as science or fact.

And this is where it takes just a bit more intelligence, hang on abraHAM, this request is to take the breaks off of the main natural gas boilers (there are two per plant).

Do you actually think this change is for simply a little increase in gas, you see, the real change is to allow 100% power production from the boilers, the are currently restricted to a 5% limit.

Watch, I will get a math lesson from abraHAM telling me that 5 more than 1 = 60%.

This is the sentence that Ivanpah is asking to be eliminated, this amendment throws away any restrictions on producing power with natural gas.

AQ-SC10 The ISEGS 1, ISEGS 2, and ISEGS 3 boilers shall not exceed a total
annual natural gas fuel heat input that is more than 5 percent of the total annual
heat input from the sun for ISEGS1, ISEGS2, and ISEGS 3, respectively. T

http://www.kcet.org/news/rewire/TN201928_20140326T164429_Ivanpah_Petition_to_Amend_No_4.pdf

If you stand back from the situation Elektra and look at the engineering and economics of it, I'm shocked that those facilities at IvanPah WEREN'T intended to produce power 24 hrs.. The investment in boilers, transmission, and all that SHOULD have built a hybrid plant with the solar portion being merely the daytime peaking that it actually is..

It's just arrogant NOT to have included that as part of the investment. Google was speaking with their heart and not their brains when they bought into this..

 

[flacaltenn]

Abe is right.. Ivanpah has nothing to do with AGW.. But another failure in these so-called alternatives means that MITIGATING AGW (should it exist or be FORCED on us) just becomes that much harder. Or impossible if the leftists fear Nuclear more than they fear AGW..

 

[Two Thumbs]

yet again, spend money then plan

How do you come up 4 times short on your math? You put out a popular number, b/c you didn't do the fucking math

They have 3 of these, each taking up 4000 acres of land

and solar was supposed to be free

pfft

 

[Two Thumbs]

since it doesn't burn as much a an all natural gas plant, that makes it ok.



Wanna know what doesn't need any gas ever?

nuclear

nuclear is the awesomest source out there

 

[elektra]

yet again, spend money then plan

How do you come up 4 times short on your math? You put out a popular number, b/c you didn't do the fucking math

They have 3 of these, each taking up 4000 acres of land

and solar was supposed to be free

pfft

Its an amazing amount of land destroyed when Solar is marketed as clean and green. How is it the world allows liars to dictate policy that costs all of us literal thousands of dollars.

This is a pic of the Ivanpah site before being destroyed.

Fact Checking NASA: A Missed Landing on Ivanpah Dry Lake | Commentary | ReWire | KCET

 

[Abraham3]

Ivanpah Solar Plant Already Irrelevent - Business Insider

If solar thermal sounds unnecessarily complicated, you're right. Solar photovoltaic has seen explosive growth in the past few years thanks to plummeting material costs, state incentives, and eco-conscious homebuyers putting up panels on their roofs. But solar thermal growth has stalled, and is expected to continue to do so. Ivanpah cost $2.2 billion. Warren Buffett paid the same amount for the world's largest photovoltaic plant just up the road outside Bakersfield. That plant will generate 1.5-times as much power as Ivanpah.

As the New York Times' Diane Cardwell and Matt Wald wrote Friday, Ivanpah probably represents an end, not a beginning.

"When BrightSource and other companies asked [investor] NRG to invest in a second thermal project, said David Crane, NRG’s chief, he responded: 'We’ve got $300 million invested in Ivanpah — let me see that work for a few months and then we’ll decide whether we want to be involved in more.' "

And here's what Lux Energy analyst Matthew Feinstein told them:

“I don’t think that we’re going to see large-scale solar thermal plants popping up, five at a time, every year in the U.S. in the long-term — it’s just not the way it’s going to work... Companies that are supplying these systems have questionable futures. There’s other prospects for renewables and for solar that look a lot better than this particular solution.”

It's not that Ivanpah itself won't be cost-effective. BrightSource locked in a 20-year power purchase agreement with local utilities that includes fixed pricing, and the vast majority of costs were borne up front, according to Shayle Kann, director of GTM Research. That means the Energy Department, which lent the project $1.6 billion, and Google, which put up $168 million, will likely see a decent return.

"So it's not so much an issue for Ivanpah as it is for any future solar thermal project," he told us in an email.

But it's a sign of how fast renewable energy technology is moving these days.
********************************************************************
********************************************************************

Ivanpah will continue to generate electricity using a tiny fraction of the natural gas that a fully gas-fired plant of the same capacity would produce. Given the 20 year pricing arrangement, it will not lose any money for its investors and there will be no cost surprises for its customers. But, as this article and many others note, PV has surpassed solar thermal in cost/kwh and, for the moment, is the future. We're going to see more and more and more rooftop PV installations. The world is moving towards renewable, non-polluting, zero carbon footprint, alternative energy solutions. The era of the unfettered growth of fossil fuel consumption is at an end.

How well Ivanpah or photovoltaics or any other energy supply works is completely immaterial to the truth of the assertion that human GHG emissions and deforestation are the primary cause of the warming the planet has experienced over the last 150 years. That warming presents a complex set of threats to human infrastructure, drinking water supplies and crop productivity. We need to act dramatically to reduce those emission and we need to act now.

 

[westwall]

Ivanpah Solar Plant Already Irrelevent - Business Insider

If solar thermal sounds unnecessarily complicated, you're right. Solar photovoltaic has seen explosive growth in the past few years thanks to plummeting material costs, state incentives, and eco-conscious homebuyers putting up panels on their roofs. But solar thermal growth has stalled, and is expected to continue to do so. Ivanpah cost $2.2 billion. Warren Buffett paid the same amount for the world's largest photovoltaic plant just up the road outside Bakersfield. That plant will generate 1.5-times as much power as Ivanpah.

As the New York Times' Diane Cardwell and Matt Wald wrote Friday, Ivanpah probably represents an end, not a beginning.

"When BrightSource and other companies asked [investor] NRG to invest in a second thermal project, said David Crane, NRG’s chief, he responded: 'We’ve got $300 million invested in Ivanpah — let me see that work for a few months and then we’ll decide whether we want to be involved in more.' "

And here's what Lux Energy analyst Matthew Feinstein told them:

“I don’t think that we’re going to see large-scale solar thermal plants popping up, five at a time, every year in the U.S. in the long-term — it’s just not the way it’s going to work... Companies that are supplying these systems have questionable futures. There’s other prospects for renewables and for solar that look a lot better than this particular solution.”

It's not that Ivanpah itself won't be cost-effective. BrightSource locked in a 20-year power purchase agreement with local utilities that includes fixed pricing, and the vast majority of costs were borne up front, according to Shayle Kann, director of GTM Research. That means the Energy Department, which lent the project $1.6 billion, and Google, which put up $168 million, will likely see a decent return.

"So it's not so much an issue for Ivanpah as it is for any future solar thermal project," he told us in an email.

But it's a sign of how fast renewable energy technology is moving these days.
********************************************************************
********************************************************************

Ivanpah will continue to generate electricity using a tiny fraction of the natural gas that a fully gas-fired plant of the same capacity would produce. Given the 20 year pricing arrangement, it will not lose any money for its investors and there will be no cost surprises for its customers. But, as this article and many others note, PV has surpassed solar thermal in cost/kwh and, for the moment, is the future. We're going to see more and more and more rooftop PV installations. The world is moving towards renewable, non-polluting, zero carbon footprint, alternative energy solutions. The era of the unfettered growth of fossil fuel consumption is at an end.

How well Ivanpah or photovoltaics or any other energy supply works is completely immaterial to the truth of the assertion that human GHG emissions and deforestation are the primary cause of the warming the planet has experienced over the last 150 years. That warming presents a complex set of threats to human infrastructure, drinking water supplies and crop productivity. We need to act dramatically to reduce those emission and we need to act now.

Like all good Ponzi schemes the first people in the scam always do good. It's the down slope people (who in this case are the ratepayers) who get screwed. Such a simple concept that blasts right over your head.

 

[orogenicman]

since it doesn't burn as much a an all natural gas plant, that makes it ok.



Wanna know what doesn't need any gas ever?

nuclear

nuclear is the awesomest source out there

Actually, they have to have auxiliary generators in case the nukes have to go offline or doing an emergency, as happened at Fukushima. And those generators don't run off natural gas. They run off of diesel, which is even dirtier. And of course, solar plants don't produce radioactive waste, which is deadly for thousands of years.

 

[westwall]

since it doesn't burn as much a an all natural gas plant, that makes it ok.



Wanna know what doesn't need any gas ever?

nuclear

nuclear is the awesomest source out there

Actually, they have to have auxiliary generators in case the nukes have to go offline or doing an emergency, as happened at Fukushima. And those generators don't run off natural gas. They run off of diesel, which is even dirtier. And of course, solar plants don't produce radioactive waste, which is deadly for thousands of years.

And those generators only kick on in an emergency, Ivanpah's are running full time.

 

[orogenicman]

since it doesn't burn as much a an all natural gas plant, that makes it ok.



Wanna know what doesn't need any gas ever?

nuclear

nuclear is the awesomest source out there

Actually, they have to have auxiliary generators in case the nukes have to go offline or doing an emergency, as happened at Fukushima. And those generators don't run off natural gas. They run off of diesel, which is even dirtier. And of course, solar plants don't produce radioactive waste, which is deadly for thousands of years.

And those generators only kick on in an emergency, Ivanpah's are running full time.

If the only way you people can make an argument is to lie about the facts, you've already lost your argument. It is clear that those boilers are NOT running full time. So what do you think you have to gain from lying about it?

 

[DriftingSand]

"How dare you reveal the truth. Solar runs circles around natural gas and coal. You're all a bunch of nutjob, conservatards. Go Obama! You're a bunch of loons. You asshat haters. Stop speaking the truth. You're giving me a headache you poo-poo heads.

Signed,

Totally Stoned and Brainwashed Libtard.