Would you support subsidizing...

[Andylusion]

Any idea that unions created 'equality' is a myth. The rich have always been rich. And the poor have always been poor. There was never a time, where the rich lived like the middle class, because of Unions.

Further, even to this day, we live in the most wealthy country in the world. Two people working minimum wage at McDonald's, places them in the top 1% of wage earners in the world.

And lastly, while you can claim that mindless BS until the end of time... you can't back that with any real empirical evidence.

Tell all the Union people at Hostess who all lost their jobs, and were replaced with non-union people, that the Unions made their lives better.

Tell all the Union people at GM and Chrysler, who all lost their jobs, and were in many cases replaced with non-union people, that Unions made their lives better.

Tell all the Steel workers that lost their jobs, and many were replaced by non-union people, that the Unions made their lives better.

We had a steel mill here in Ohio reopen, after being closed from a Union strike years ago. Now it's opening non-union.

The people who claim the Unions did anything good, typically have to go back in time about 100 years, to point to any good thing the Union did.

Today, the Unions are only there to screw over the public, and screw over the tax payers, and screw over their own members.

We have more wealth than ever and really low unemployment. We could afford to pay everyone really well, but instead the rich are winning bigly. The result is a slow economy. The tax cuts for the rich didn’t fix that.

That's not true either.

The CEO of Walmart made $22 Million.

He if split that money up with the employees, it would give all the 2.2 M employees about $10 for the year. That's a raise of 0.5 Cents an hour.

Problem is, you can't take $22 Million, because most of that is stock. Can you pay a low-wage worker in stock they can't sell? No. Only $6.5 Million is in cash.

That means the total pay out to employees would be about $3 a year, or 0.0014 cents an hour raise.

This same basic math is true of nearly every company that hires low wage workers. Wendy's, McDonald's, and so on, you can do the math for all of them, and it all comes out to less than a penny per hour raise, if you confiscated the CEO wage, and distributed it to the employees.

And here's the other side.... you take the money from the CEOs and give it to the employees, then you end up with terrible CEOs. Bad CEOs can easily destroy the entire company. Enron, Lehman, WorldCom, and the list goes on.

You take that CEO pay, and give it to the employees, and you won't have to worry about low wages anymore, because there will be no wages. Everyone will be unemployed when the company closes.

This mythology that everyone could make a good living if not for the rich people... so ridiculous, so stupid. No support for this fabricated belief system at all.

The waltons made billions. Unions are in deep decline, where is the promised prosperity?

Where is it? 0.o

Dude look around. Things are better in this country, than at any time in the past.

More people, can make more money, in this country, than any other country in the world. I just had last year, a guy come here from Bangladesh. Worked his ass off for 5 years, and landed a job, 3 months vacation, paid for his moving costs, base pay $120,000 a year.

Now if a guy from a far away country, who still needs to ask what English words mean, can land that kind of a job by working hard.... why can't any born bred American? And without a Union.

I had a guy working with me years ago, started doing flooring on the weekends. In a matter of months, he was making more on the weekend doing flooring, than he was at a his full time job. Pretty soon, Wendy's contacted this guy, and asked him to do their corporate stores.

A janitor secretly amassed an $8 million fortune and left most of it to his library and hospital

This Janitor end up with $8 Million dollars by the time he retired.

Prosperity is all over the place. All over. I could point to dozens of examples.

The guy I worked for before, started the business in his basement, and built it to a multi-million dollar company, and sold it.

Open your eyes man. There is wealth all over this country for anyone who is willing to work for it.

Working for it, doesn't mean going to work for 40-hours, and clocking at on the minute, and spinning your tires out of the parking lot, so you can watch a football game, or the latest fad TV show.

Working for it, means finding work that has more value, or learning a skill that has more value, or working your way up in whatever company you are in.

Let me give you an example. Had a guy working at the auto part store. He was good at his job. But he didn't just come in, and do his job, and leave.

He request more hours whenever possible. Came in on weekends. Stayed late when asked. He moved to different positions within the store. He was unloading trucks, stocking shelves, cleaning floors, and running the cash registers.

Then he asked to join the company training program. He got in as a manager in training. Then he went to be assistant store manager. Then he was promoted to being store manager at a new store.

He moved up. He found more valuable work to do, that paid more money. Now he's averaging just under $100,000 a year (base pay plus store-profit sharing bonus). Again, no union involved.

Anyone can move up in this country. There is wealth everywhere.

If a drunk guy, working at a bar, can start whittling duck callers, and end up a multi-millionaire with his own TV show... anyone can.

Wage growth is really slow. That's a fact. Not interested in all your imaginary examples. Workers share little of the profits now.

You missed my point. Wage growth isn't supposed to be fast.

How much is the value of having the oil changed in your car? I normally have it done for $20.

Why would you think that simply because a year went by, that now I should pay a higher price as a customer, for a simple oil change?

What have you done (if you are the guy changing the oil) that makes an oil change more valuable to me the customer?

Nothing.

I did oil changes. I got paid exactly how much the job was worth. How hard do you really think it is to turn a screw, watch the oil drain, and turn the screw back. Then screw a filter off, and screw a new filter on. Then pour in 3 qts of oil.
The entire process was 10 minutes at most.

Do you really think that is worth a middle class income? If you do, do you think customers are going to pay middle class wages for an oil change?

Why would you think, that sucking air for 12 months, magically makes your labor more valuable?

It's not.

If you want to earn more money, the solution to that is not sitting on your butt, complaining on a forum, or voting for a politician that says Government will fix your life.

The solution is not waiting around for wages to grow. The solution is to get off your butt, and find something of higher value to do.

Wage growth should be, and I would say is, completely and utterly irrelevant to how wealthy people are in this country.

Wage growth could be zero, or even negative, and you can still end up filthy rich in this country, by getting off your butt, and getting a better job, that pays better. By learning a skill, or getting into a trade, or even just saving wisely like that janitor.

That is my point.

And lastly, workers never shared in the profits ever. Whether wage growth is fast or slow, doesn't matter. Workers are not sharing in the profits, unless they buy stock in the company.

 

[Brain357]

We have more wealth than ever and really low unemployment. We could afford to pay everyone really well, but instead the rich are winning bigly. The result is a slow economy. The tax cuts for the rich didn’t fix that.

That's not true either.

The CEO of Walmart made $22 Million.

He if split that money up with the employees, it would give all the 2.2 M employees about $10 for the year. That's a raise of 0.5 Cents an hour.

Problem is, you can't take $22 Million, because most of that is stock. Can you pay a low-wage worker in stock they can't sell? No. Only $6.5 Million is in cash.

That means the total pay out to employees would be about $3 a year, or 0.0014 cents an hour raise.

This same basic math is true of nearly every company that hires low wage workers. Wendy's, McDonald's, and so on, you can do the math for all of them, and it all comes out to less than a penny per hour raise, if you confiscated the CEO wage, and distributed it to the employees.

And here's the other side.... you take the money from the CEOs and give it to the employees, then you end up with terrible CEOs. Bad CEOs can easily destroy the entire company. Enron, Lehman, WorldCom, and the list goes on.

You take that CEO pay, and give it to the employees, and you won't have to worry about low wages anymore, because there will be no wages. Everyone will be unemployed when the company closes.

This mythology that everyone could make a good living if not for the rich people... so ridiculous, so stupid. No support for this fabricated belief system at all.

The waltons made billions. Unions are in deep decline, where is the promised prosperity?

Where is it? 0.o

Dude look around. Things are better in this country, than at any time in the past.

More people, can make more money, in this country, than any other country in the world. I just had last year, a guy come here from Bangladesh. Worked his ass off for 5 years, and landed a job, 3 months vacation, paid for his moving costs, base pay $120,000 a year.

Now if a guy from a far away country, who still needs to ask what English words mean, can land that kind of a job by working hard.... why can't any born bred American? And without a Union.

I had a guy working with me years ago, started doing flooring on the weekends. In a matter of months, he was making more on the weekend doing flooring, than he was at a his full time job. Pretty soon, Wendy's contacted this guy, and asked him to do their corporate stores.

A janitor secretly amassed an $8 million fortune and left most of it to his library and hospital

This Janitor end up with $8 Million dollars by the time he retired.

Prosperity is all over the place. All over. I could point to dozens of examples.

The guy I worked for before, started the business in his basement, and built it to a multi-million dollar company, and sold it.

Open your eyes man. There is wealth all over this country for anyone who is willing to work for it.

Working for it, doesn't mean going to work for 40-hours, and clocking at on the minute, and spinning your tires out of the parking lot, so you can watch a football game, or the latest fad TV show.

Working for it, means finding work that has more value, or learning a skill that has more value, or working your way up in whatever company you are in.

Let me give you an example. Had a guy working at the auto part store. He was good at his job. But he didn't just come in, and do his job, and leave.

He request more hours whenever possible. Came in on weekends. Stayed late when asked. He moved to different positions within the store. He was unloading trucks, stocking shelves, cleaning floors, and running the cash registers.

Then he asked to join the company training program. He got in as a manager in training. Then he went to be assistant store manager. Then he was promoted to being store manager at a new store.

He moved up. He found more valuable work to do, that paid more money. Now he's averaging just under $100,000 a year (base pay plus store-profit sharing bonus). Again, no union involved.

Anyone can move up in this country. There is wealth everywhere.

If a drunk guy, working at a bar, can start whittling duck callers, and end up a multi-millionaire with his own TV show... anyone can.

Wage growth is really slow. That's a fact. Not interested in all your imaginary examples. Workers share little of the profits now.

You missed my point. Wage growth isn't supposed to be fast.

How much is the value of having the oil changed in your car? I normally have it done for $20.

Why would you think that simply because a year went by, that now I should pay a higher price as a customer, for a simple oil change?

What have you done (if you are the guy changing the oil) that makes an oil change more valuable to me the customer?

Nothing.

I did oil changes. I got paid exactly how much the job was worth. How hard do you really think it is to turn a screw, watch the oil drain, and turn the screw back. Then screw a filter off, and screw a new filter on. Then pour in 3 qts of oil.
The entire process was 10 minutes at most.

Do you really think that is worth a middle class income? If you do, do you think customers are going to pay middle class wages for an oil change?

Why would you think, that sucking air for 12 months, magically makes your labor more valuable?

It's not.

If you want to earn more money, the solution to that is not sitting on your butt, complaining on a forum, or voting for a politician that says Government will fix your life.

The solution is not waiting around for wages to grow. The solution is to get off your butt, and find something of higher value to do.

Wage growth should be, and I would say is, completely and utterly irrelevant to how wealthy people are in this country.

Wage growth could be zero, or even negative, and you can still end up filthy rich in this country, by getting off your butt, and getting a better job, that pays better. By learning a skill, or getting into a trade, or even just saving wisely like that janitor.

That is my point.

And lastly, workers never shared in the profits ever. Whether wage growth is fast or slow, doesn't matter. Workers are not sharing in the profits, unless they buy stock in the company.

That's all cute and all, but that's not helping the economy. Wage growth is slow. The economy is slow. Inequality is growing rapidly. These aren't good things. The country was stronger with a strong middle class. You seem blind to this.

 

[Andylusion]

That's not true either.

The CEO of Walmart made $22 Million.

He if split that money up with the employees, it would give all the 2.2 M employees about $10 for the year. That's a raise of 0.5 Cents an hour.

Problem is, you can't take $22 Million, because most of that is stock. Can you pay a low-wage worker in stock they can't sell? No. Only $6.5 Million is in cash.

That means the total pay out to employees would be about $3 a year, or 0.0014 cents an hour raise.

This same basic math is true of nearly every company that hires low wage workers. Wendy's, McDonald's, and so on, you can do the math for all of them, and it all comes out to less than a penny per hour raise, if you confiscated the CEO wage, and distributed it to the employees.

And here's the other side.... you take the money from the CEOs and give it to the employees, then you end up with terrible CEOs. Bad CEOs can easily destroy the entire company. Enron, Lehman, WorldCom, and the list goes on.

You take that CEO pay, and give it to the employees, and you won't have to worry about low wages anymore, because there will be no wages. Everyone will be unemployed when the company closes.

This mythology that everyone could make a good living if not for the rich people... so ridiculous, so stupid. No support for this fabricated belief system at all.

The waltons made billions. Unions are in deep decline, where is the promised prosperity?

Where is it? 0.o

Dude look around. Things are better in this country, than at any time in the past.

More people, can make more money, in this country, than any other country in the world. I just had last year, a guy come here from Bangladesh. Worked his ass off for 5 years, and landed a job, 3 months vacation, paid for his moving costs, base pay $120,000 a year.

Now if a guy from a far away country, who still needs to ask what English words mean, can land that kind of a job by working hard.... why can't any born bred American? And without a Union.

I had a guy working with me years ago, started doing flooring on the weekends. In a matter of months, he was making more on the weekend doing flooring, than he was at a his full time job. Pretty soon, Wendy's contacted this guy, and asked him to do their corporate stores.

A janitor secretly amassed an $8 million fortune and left most of it to his library and hospital

This Janitor end up with $8 Million dollars by the time he retired.

Prosperity is all over the place. All over. I could point to dozens of examples.

The guy I worked for before, started the business in his basement, and built it to a multi-million dollar company, and sold it.

Open your eyes man. There is wealth all over this country for anyone who is willing to work for it.

Working for it, doesn't mean going to work for 40-hours, and clocking at on the minute, and spinning your tires out of the parking lot, so you can watch a football game, or the latest fad TV show.

Working for it, means finding work that has more value, or learning a skill that has more value, or working your way up in whatever company you are in.

Let me give you an example. Had a guy working at the auto part store. He was good at his job. But he didn't just come in, and do his job, and leave.

He request more hours whenever possible. Came in on weekends. Stayed late when asked. He moved to different positions within the store. He was unloading trucks, stocking shelves, cleaning floors, and running the cash registers.

Then he asked to join the company training program. He got in as a manager in training. Then he went to be assistant store manager. Then he was promoted to being store manager at a new store.

He moved up. He found more valuable work to do, that paid more money. Now he's averaging just under $100,000 a year (base pay plus store-profit sharing bonus). Again, no union involved.

Anyone can move up in this country. There is wealth everywhere.

If a drunk guy, working at a bar, can start whittling duck callers, and end up a multi-millionaire with his own TV show... anyone can.

Wage growth is really slow. That's a fact. Not interested in all your imaginary examples. Workers share little of the profits now.

You missed my point. Wage growth isn't supposed to be fast.

How much is the value of having the oil changed in your car? I normally have it done for $20.

Why would you think that simply because a year went by, that now I should pay a higher price as a customer, for a simple oil change?

What have you done (if you are the guy changing the oil) that makes an oil change more valuable to me the customer?

Nothing.

I did oil changes. I got paid exactly how much the job was worth. How hard do you really think it is to turn a screw, watch the oil drain, and turn the screw back. Then screw a filter off, and screw a new filter on. Then pour in 3 qts of oil.
The entire process was 10 minutes at most.

Do you really think that is worth a middle class income? If you do, do you think customers are going to pay middle class wages for an oil change?

Why would you think, that sucking air for 12 months, magically makes your labor more valuable?

It's not.

If you want to earn more money, the solution to that is not sitting on your butt, complaining on a forum, or voting for a politician that says Government will fix your life.

The solution is not waiting around for wages to grow. The solution is to get off your butt, and find something of higher value to do.

Wage growth should be, and I would say is, completely and utterly irrelevant to how wealthy people are in this country.

Wage growth could be zero, or even negative, and you can still end up filthy rich in this country, by getting off your butt, and getting a better job, that pays better. By learning a skill, or getting into a trade, or even just saving wisely like that janitor.

That is my point.

And lastly, workers never shared in the profits ever. Whether wage growth is fast or slow, doesn't matter. Workers are not sharing in the profits, unless they buy stock in the company.

That's all cute and all, but that's not helping the economy. Wage growth is slow. The economy is slow. Inequality is growing rapidly. These aren't good things. The country was stronger with a strong middle class. You seem blind to this.

Inequality is good. You know where they have equality? Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea.

Again... doesn't matter what the wage growth is. Get off your butt, and get a better job. Then your wage will grow.

Our middle class is living a life, that 99% of the planet, could only dream about.

If you think the middle class is not strong, then you are just ignorant.

 

[Brain357]

The waltons made billions. Unions are in deep decline, where is the promised prosperity?

Where is it? 0.o

Dude look around. Things are better in this country, than at any time in the past.

More people, can make more money, in this country, than any other country in the world. I just had last year, a guy come here from Bangladesh. Worked his ass off for 5 years, and landed a job, 3 months vacation, paid for his moving costs, base pay $120,000 a year.

Now if a guy from a far away country, who still needs to ask what English words mean, can land that kind of a job by working hard.... why can't any born bred American? And without a Union.

I had a guy working with me years ago, started doing flooring on the weekends. In a matter of months, he was making more on the weekend doing flooring, than he was at a his full time job. Pretty soon, Wendy's contacted this guy, and asked him to do their corporate stores.

A janitor secretly amassed an $8 million fortune and left most of it to his library and hospital

This Janitor end up with $8 Million dollars by the time he retired.

Prosperity is all over the place. All over. I could point to dozens of examples.

The guy I worked for before, started the business in his basement, and built it to a multi-million dollar company, and sold it.

Open your eyes man. There is wealth all over this country for anyone who is willing to work for it.

Working for it, doesn't mean going to work for 40-hours, and clocking at on the minute, and spinning your tires out of the parking lot, so you can watch a football game, or the latest fad TV show.

Working for it, means finding work that has more value, or learning a skill that has more value, or working your way up in whatever company you are in.

Let me give you an example. Had a guy working at the auto part store. He was good at his job. But he didn't just come in, and do his job, and leave.

He request more hours whenever possible. Came in on weekends. Stayed late when asked. He moved to different positions within the store. He was unloading trucks, stocking shelves, cleaning floors, and running the cash registers.

Then he asked to join the company training program. He got in as a manager in training. Then he went to be assistant store manager. Then he was promoted to being store manager at a new store.

He moved up. He found more valuable work to do, that paid more money. Now he's averaging just under $100,000 a year (base pay plus store-profit sharing bonus). Again, no union involved.

Anyone can move up in this country. There is wealth everywhere.

If a drunk guy, working at a bar, can start whittling duck callers, and end up a multi-millionaire with his own TV show... anyone can.

Wage growth is really slow. That's a fact. Not interested in all your imaginary examples. Workers share little of the profits now.

You missed my point. Wage growth isn't supposed to be fast.

How much is the value of having the oil changed in your car? I normally have it done for $20.

Why would you think that simply because a year went by, that now I should pay a higher price as a customer, for a simple oil change?

What have you done (if you are the guy changing the oil) that makes an oil change more valuable to me the customer?

Nothing.

I did oil changes. I got paid exactly how much the job was worth. How hard do you really think it is to turn a screw, watch the oil drain, and turn the screw back. Then screw a filter off, and screw a new filter on. Then pour in 3 qts of oil.
The entire process was 10 minutes at most.

Do you really think that is worth a middle class income? If you do, do you think customers are going to pay middle class wages for an oil change?

Why would you think, that sucking air for 12 months, magically makes your labor more valuable?

It's not.

If you want to earn more money, the solution to that is not sitting on your butt, complaining on a forum, or voting for a politician that says Government will fix your life.

The solution is not waiting around for wages to grow. The solution is to get off your butt, and find something of higher value to do.

Wage growth should be, and I would say is, completely and utterly irrelevant to how wealthy people are in this country.

Wage growth could be zero, or even negative, and you can still end up filthy rich in this country, by getting off your butt, and getting a better job, that pays better. By learning a skill, or getting into a trade, or even just saving wisely like that janitor.

That is my point.

And lastly, workers never shared in the profits ever. Whether wage growth is fast or slow, doesn't matter. Workers are not sharing in the profits, unless they buy stock in the company.

That's all cute and all, but that's not helping the economy. Wage growth is slow. The economy is slow. Inequality is growing rapidly. These aren't good things. The country was stronger with a strong middle class. You seem blind to this.

Inequality is good. You know where they have equality? Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea.

Again... doesn't matter what the wage growth is. Get off your butt, and get a better job. Then your wage will grow.

Our middle class is living a life, that 99% of the planet, could only dream about.

If you think the middle class is not strong, then you are just ignorant.

Yes some is good. Too much is bad, it slows the economy. Many studies have been done on this. Africa is loaded with countries with huge inequality. Not really the best places on the planet....

Yes wage growth does matter. When wage growth is strong people spend and the economy grows.

The middle class is shrinking. People are working more and more and getting less.

It is not strong. Earlier generations worked 40 hours for good pay and often only needed one income. They retired relatively young with a good pension and healthcare. Things are much worse.

 

[Andylusion]

Where is it? 0.o

Dude look around. Things are better in this country, than at any time in the past.

More people, can make more money, in this country, than any other country in the world. I just had last year, a guy come here from Bangladesh. Worked his ass off for 5 years, and landed a job, 3 months vacation, paid for his moving costs, base pay $120,000 a year.

Now if a guy from a far away country, who still needs to ask what English words mean, can land that kind of a job by working hard.... why can't any born bred American? And without a Union.

I had a guy working with me years ago, started doing flooring on the weekends. In a matter of months, he was making more on the weekend doing flooring, than he was at a his full time job. Pretty soon, Wendy's contacted this guy, and asked him to do their corporate stores.

A janitor secretly amassed an $8 million fortune and left most of it to his library and hospital

This Janitor end up with $8 Million dollars by the time he retired.

Prosperity is all over the place. All over. I could point to dozens of examples.

The guy I worked for before, started the business in his basement, and built it to a multi-million dollar company, and sold it.

Open your eyes man. There is wealth all over this country for anyone who is willing to work for it.

Working for it, doesn't mean going to work for 40-hours, and clocking at on the minute, and spinning your tires out of the parking lot, so you can watch a football game, or the latest fad TV show.

Working for it, means finding work that has more value, or learning a skill that has more value, or working your way up in whatever company you are in.

Let me give you an example. Had a guy working at the auto part store. He was good at his job. But he didn't just come in, and do his job, and leave.

He request more hours whenever possible. Came in on weekends. Stayed late when asked. He moved to different positions within the store. He was unloading trucks, stocking shelves, cleaning floors, and running the cash registers.

Then he asked to join the company training program. He got in as a manager in training. Then he went to be assistant store manager. Then he was promoted to being store manager at a new store.

He moved up. He found more valuable work to do, that paid more money. Now he's averaging just under $100,000 a year (base pay plus store-profit sharing bonus). Again, no union involved.

Anyone can move up in this country. There is wealth everywhere.

If a drunk guy, working at a bar, can start whittling duck callers, and end up a multi-millionaire with his own TV show... anyone can.

Wage growth is really slow. That's a fact. Not interested in all your imaginary examples. Workers share little of the profits now.

You missed my point. Wage growth isn't supposed to be fast.

How much is the value of having the oil changed in your car? I normally have it done for $20.

Why would you think that simply because a year went by, that now I should pay a higher price as a customer, for a simple oil change?

What have you done (if you are the guy changing the oil) that makes an oil change more valuable to me the customer?

Nothing.

I did oil changes. I got paid exactly how much the job was worth. How hard do you really think it is to turn a screw, watch the oil drain, and turn the screw back. Then screw a filter off, and screw a new filter on. Then pour in 3 qts of oil.
The entire process was 10 minutes at most.

Do you really think that is worth a middle class income? If you do, do you think customers are going to pay middle class wages for an oil change?

Why would you think, that sucking air for 12 months, magically makes your labor more valuable?

It's not.

If you want to earn more money, the solution to that is not sitting on your butt, complaining on a forum, or voting for a politician that says Government will fix your life.

The solution is not waiting around for wages to grow. The solution is to get off your butt, and find something of higher value to do.

Wage growth should be, and I would say is, completely and utterly irrelevant to how wealthy people are in this country.

Wage growth could be zero, or even negative, and you can still end up filthy rich in this country, by getting off your butt, and getting a better job, that pays better. By learning a skill, or getting into a trade, or even just saving wisely like that janitor.

That is my point.

And lastly, workers never shared in the profits ever. Whether wage growth is fast or slow, doesn't matter. Workers are not sharing in the profits, unless they buy stock in the company.

That's all cute and all, but that's not helping the economy. Wage growth is slow. The economy is slow. Inequality is growing rapidly. These aren't good things. The country was stronger with a strong middle class. You seem blind to this.

Inequality is good. You know where they have equality? Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea.

Again... doesn't matter what the wage growth is. Get off your butt, and get a better job. Then your wage will grow.

Our middle class is living a life, that 99% of the planet, could only dream about.

If you think the middle class is not strong, then you are just ignorant.

Yes some is good. Too much is bad, it slows the economy. Many studies have been done on this. Africa is loaded with countries with huge inequality. Not really the best places on the planet....

Yes wage growth does matter. When wage growth is strong people spend and the economy grows.

The middle class is shrinking. People are working more and more and getting less.

It is not strong. Earlier generations worked 40 hours for good pay and often only needed one income. They retired relatively young with a good pension and healthcare. Things are much worse.

Africa is a collection of countries with varying policies. Saying "Africa" as if that makes any valid statement about anything, is ridiculous. That's like saying "the northern hemisphere has huge inequality and not really the best places on the planet".... well yeah.

Index of Economic Freedom

Only a few countries, roughly 4 total, are even moderately capitalist.

There is no indication that "too much inequality" slows the economy. All the countries with large inequality, have the largest growth, with some of the highest standards of living.

Again, Denmark is a perfect example. The myth of equality in Denmark is ridiculous. The poor in Denmark, are poor. The rich in Denmark are filthy rich. I was reading about the girl who is part of the dynasty family that owns Legos. They are filthy stinking rich. They own yachts, and private resorts. This girl, age 30, that was born into the Lego Dynasty, she has a private horse farm, because she enjoys going to pony shows, and wining awards. So she has her own farm, with her private staff to raise horses.

The rich Lego Dynasty in Denmark, are just as filthy rich, as the Walton family in the US. You know what the difference is? You don't know how rich the Lego people are in Denmark, because they don't make that information public.

So because you don't know, you believe in a myth that inequality is lower elsewhere. Nah, it isn't.

Inequality is only lower, when everyone is equally poor.

If you see a country with high levels of inequality, it's likely capitalist, and has some of the highest standards of living in the world.

You see low levels of inequality, it's likely socialist, and people are cooking up the family dog for dinner.
Pets on the Menu as Venezuelans Starve

 

[Brain357]

Wage growth is really slow. That's a fact. Not interested in all your imaginary examples. Workers share little of the profits now.

You missed my point. Wage growth isn't supposed to be fast.

How much is the value of having the oil changed in your car? I normally have it done for $20.

Why would you think that simply because a year went by, that now I should pay a higher price as a customer, for a simple oil change?

What have you done (if you are the guy changing the oil) that makes an oil change more valuable to me the customer?

Nothing.

I did oil changes. I got paid exactly how much the job was worth. How hard do you really think it is to turn a screw, watch the oil drain, and turn the screw back. Then screw a filter off, and screw a new filter on. Then pour in 3 qts of oil.
The entire process was 10 minutes at most.

Do you really think that is worth a middle class income? If you do, do you think customers are going to pay middle class wages for an oil change?

Why would you think, that sucking air for 12 months, magically makes your labor more valuable?

It's not.

If you want to earn more money, the solution to that is not sitting on your butt, complaining on a forum, or voting for a politician that says Government will fix your life.

The solution is not waiting around for wages to grow. The solution is to get off your butt, and find something of higher value to do.

Wage growth should be, and I would say is, completely and utterly irrelevant to how wealthy people are in this country.

Wage growth could be zero, or even negative, and you can still end up filthy rich in this country, by getting off your butt, and getting a better job, that pays better. By learning a skill, or getting into a trade, or even just saving wisely like that janitor.

That is my point.

And lastly, workers never shared in the profits ever. Whether wage growth is fast or slow, doesn't matter. Workers are not sharing in the profits, unless they buy stock in the company.

That's all cute and all, but that's not helping the economy. Wage growth is slow. The economy is slow. Inequality is growing rapidly. These aren't good things. The country was stronger with a strong middle class. You seem blind to this.

Inequality is good. You know where they have equality? Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea.

Again... doesn't matter what the wage growth is. Get off your butt, and get a better job. Then your wage will grow.

Our middle class is living a life, that 99% of the planet, could only dream about.

If you think the middle class is not strong, then you are just ignorant.

Yes some is good. Too much is bad, it slows the economy. Many studies have been done on this. Africa is loaded with countries with huge inequality. Not really the best places on the planet....

Yes wage growth does matter. When wage growth is strong people spend and the economy grows.

The middle class is shrinking. People are working more and more and getting less.

It is not strong. Earlier generations worked 40 hours for good pay and often only needed one income. They retired relatively young with a good pension and healthcare. Things are much worse.

Africa is a collection of countries with varying policies. Saying "Africa" as if that makes any valid statement about anything, is ridiculous. That's like saying "the northern hemisphere has huge inequality and not really the best places on the planet".... well yeah.

Index of Economic Freedom

Only a few countries, roughly 4 total, are even moderately capitalist.

There is no indication that "too much inequality" slows the economy. All the countries with large inequality, have the largest growth, with some of the highest standards of living.

Again, Denmark is a perfect example. The myth of equality in Denmark is ridiculous. The poor in Denmark, are poor. The rich in Denmark are filthy rich. I was reading about the girl who is part of the dynasty family that owns Legos. They are filthy stinking rich. They own yachts, and private resorts. This girl, age 30, that was born into the Lego Dynasty, she has a private horse farm, because she enjoys going to pony shows, and wining awards. So she has her own farm, with her private staff to raise horses.

The rich Lego Dynasty in Denmark, are just as filthy rich, as the Walton family in the US. You know what the difference is? You don't know how rich the Lego people are in Denmark, because they don't make that information public.

So because you don't know, you believe in a myth that inequality is lower elsewhere. Nah, it isn't.

Inequality is only lower, when everyone is equally poor.

If you see a country with high levels of inequality, it's likely capitalist, and has some of the highest standards of living in the world.

You see low levels of inequality, it's likely socialist, and people are cooking up the family dog for dinner.
Pets on the Menu as Venezuelans Starve

Yes countries in Africa are loaded with too much inequality. Here is a list of the most unequal countries:
These are the most unequal countries in the world – including South Africa
Not places I would want to live.

The Scandinavian countries are good examples with less inequality. I'd take them over the countries on the most list any day.

And yes there are studies of the effects of inequality:
Inequality hurts economic growth, finds OECD research - OECD

Too much inequality is bad, and that's where we are.

You seem to speak in fantasy rather than actual studies and facts.

 

[Andylusion]

You missed my point. Wage growth isn't supposed to be fast.

How much is the value of having the oil changed in your car? I normally have it done for $20.

Why would you think that simply because a year went by, that now I should pay a higher price as a customer, for a simple oil change?

What have you done (if you are the guy changing the oil) that makes an oil change more valuable to me the customer?

Nothing.

I did oil changes. I got paid exactly how much the job was worth. How hard do you really think it is to turn a screw, watch the oil drain, and turn the screw back. Then screw a filter off, and screw a new filter on. Then pour in 3 qts of oil.
The entire process was 10 minutes at most.

Do you really think that is worth a middle class income? If you do, do you think customers are going to pay middle class wages for an oil change?

Why would you think, that sucking air for 12 months, magically makes your labor more valuable?

It's not.

If you want to earn more money, the solution to that is not sitting on your butt, complaining on a forum, or voting for a politician that says Government will fix your life.

The solution is not waiting around for wages to grow. The solution is to get off your butt, and find something of higher value to do.

Wage growth should be, and I would say is, completely and utterly irrelevant to how wealthy people are in this country.

Wage growth could be zero, or even negative, and you can still end up filthy rich in this country, by getting off your butt, and getting a better job, that pays better. By learning a skill, or getting into a trade, or even just saving wisely like that janitor.

That is my point.

And lastly, workers never shared in the profits ever. Whether wage growth is fast or slow, doesn't matter. Workers are not sharing in the profits, unless they buy stock in the company.

That's all cute and all, but that's not helping the economy. Wage growth is slow. The economy is slow. Inequality is growing rapidly. These aren't good things. The country was stronger with a strong middle class. You seem blind to this.

Inequality is good. You know where they have equality? Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea.

Again... doesn't matter what the wage growth is. Get off your butt, and get a better job. Then your wage will grow.

Our middle class is living a life, that 99% of the planet, could only dream about.

If you think the middle class is not strong, then you are just ignorant.

Yes some is good. Too much is bad, it slows the economy. Many studies have been done on this. Africa is loaded with countries with huge inequality. Not really the best places on the planet....

Yes wage growth does matter. When wage growth is strong people spend and the economy grows.

The middle class is shrinking. People are working more and more and getting less.

It is not strong. Earlier generations worked 40 hours for good pay and often only needed one income. They retired relatively young with a good pension and healthcare. Things are much worse.

Africa is a collection of countries with varying policies. Saying "Africa" as if that makes any valid statement about anything, is ridiculous. That's like saying "the northern hemisphere has huge inequality and not really the best places on the planet".... well yeah.

Index of Economic Freedom

Only a few countries, roughly 4 total, are even moderately capitalist.

There is no indication that "too much inequality" slows the economy. All the countries with large inequality, have the largest growth, with some of the highest standards of living.

Again, Denmark is a perfect example. The myth of equality in Denmark is ridiculous. The poor in Denmark, are poor. The rich in Denmark are filthy rich. I was reading about the girl who is part of the dynasty family that owns Legos. They are filthy stinking rich. They own yachts, and private resorts. This girl, age 30, that was born into the Lego Dynasty, she has a private horse farm, because she enjoys going to pony shows, and wining awards. So she has her own farm, with her private staff to raise horses.

The rich Lego Dynasty in Denmark, are just as filthy rich, as the Walton family in the US. You know what the difference is? You don't know how rich the Lego people are in Denmark, because they don't make that information public.

So because you don't know, you believe in a myth that inequality is lower elsewhere. Nah, it isn't.

Inequality is only lower, when everyone is equally poor.

If you see a country with high levels of inequality, it's likely capitalist, and has some of the highest standards of living in the world.

You see low levels of inequality, it's likely socialist, and people are cooking up the family dog for dinner.
Pets on the Menu as Venezuelans Starve

Yes countries in Africa are loaded with too much inequality. Here is a list of the most unequal countries:
These are the most unequal countries in the world – including South Africa
Not places I would want to live.

The Scandinavian countries are good examples with less inequality. I'd take them over the countries on the most list any day.

And yes there are studies of the effects of inequality:
Inequality hurts economic growth, finds OECD research - OECD

Too much inequality is bad, and that's where we are.

You seem to speak in fantasy rather than actual studies and facts.

Somehow I doubt that information is even remotely accurate.

They have Venezuela on there, and truthfully the vast majority of people with wealth, have left the country. We know this for a fact. Almost half a million are in Spain already. Not to mention all the business owners that are now in Florida, and the millions on millions spread across Columbia, Ecuador and so on.

So logically I would expect that the inequality would go down, rather than up, given the fact that millions of the wealthy have fled the country.

But perhaps their is another element going on that I don't know about.

If however, the information is accurate somehow, than that simply proves there is no positive or negative to inequality. There is still zero evidence that equality results are good.

In fact, in looking at the data more closely, the more ridiculous it looks.

Algeria has a 27. Mali is 33. Liberia is 35.

France is 32. The US is 41.

Really? So Algeria is better than the US and France? Mali and Liberia and a number of other nations in Africa are right on par with Europe?

Garbage garbage garbage.

Gini Index Definition

All you did was prove to me conclusively, that the GINI is a useless index.

Turkey and the U.S. both had income Gini coefficients around 0.39-0.40 in 2016, according to the OECD, though Turkey's GDP per person was less than half the U.S.'s (in 2010 dollar terms).
​

So Turkey and the US are on equal terms according to the GINI coefficient.
Case closed. Class dismissed. The prosecution rests, your honor.

By your logic, there are about a dozen countries in Africa, and elsewhere like Iraq, Azerbaijan, Slovakia, and so on, that are all much better places to live, because they are more equal.

And at the same time, the most wealthy places to live in Africa, South Africa (63) and Nigeria (43), have some of the highest inequality.

So the two places in Africa that have standard of living closest to the US, have higher inequality than the US.

Heck the Ukraine and Belarus, both have 25. Are you kidding me? Ukraine and Belarus are better than western Europe and the US, because they are more equal?

... are we done here? Because I think that was as close to an intellectual self-own, as we can get. Destroyed your own position with your own data set.

Now I'm all for poor people earning more. The way you do that, is the same way anyone earns more. You work hard, get a better job, learn new skills, and work your way up. The solution isn't take more money from the people who create jobs, so that there are fewer jobs.

 

[Mac-7]

It matters a great deal

if production is as inelastic as you claim and the masks are made in china which country gets the increased production when the shit hits the fan?

china of course

But that would be true here as well.

Remember the outbreak hit China first. So mask demand spiked there to start with. If the production was here in the US, those masks would be loaded on a boat, and heading for China right now.

By the time the demand hit the US, all existing stock would already be on the ocean waters between here and China.

It's a global market. That's how it is.

If the production was here in the US, those masks would be loaded on a boat, and heading for China right now.

That’ll be the day when china buys anything from the US if they can make it there

no masks would be on their way to china

and we have not even touched on the issue of Made In China drugs that are vital for the health of US citizens

Sure they would.

Look, most massive international suppliers, only have one manufacturing plant. They don't need to plants, to make the same thing. That doesn't even make sense in most cases.

You pointed out that Auto companies have manufacturing plants inside, and outside the country. True. But they don't have two plants, making identical products.

The simply don't. They would never have two different plants, making the exact same product. Even when you see two Ford plants for example that are both making a Ford Fiesta.... they are not making the same Fiesta. Some plants are making commercial version, with van style panels. Others are making ones for motor sports. Others are making a version the fits the requirements and regulations of a specific country or group of countries. (right-hand steering, instead of left-hand steering for example).

A face mask is not going to have any of those requirements.

There is no reason to build a second manufacturing plant inside the US, just for facemasks.

If they moved the plant to the US, then they would be supplying China from the US, as well as the rest of the world.

And yes, China buys stuff from the US all the time. China is constantly buying products from the US.

United States Exports By Country

China is our third largest customer of US goods.

This has been well documented for years. I don't know why you would even think to argue otherwise.

According to your reference china buys $120 bil from us and we buy about $600 bil from them

that is not healthy for America

Why?

let's say that you make more money than me. Let us even say that you make 5 times what I do. You make $150K, and I make barely $30K.

Which of us, can buy more from the to the other person?

Well..... obviously...... you can buy 5 times as much in value from me, than I can from you.

This is because you are more wealthy than I am.

We, the US, make much more money than China does. The idea that the Chinese should be able to buy as much from us, as we do from them, when our average wage is up near $50K, and their average wage is down near $11K, is ridiculous.

Why is evidence that we are clearly more wealthy, and more productive, and more prosperous than China.... somehow evidence that this is not healthy?

And here's the irony... is that most of that trade imbalance, is coming back to us. Think about it.... part of that $600B to $120B, is iPhones right? Well who is collecting the profits from that? Apple... which is a US company, and 2 Million jobs across the US.

We, the US, make much more money than China does.

That is changing fast as Americans lose good jobs that can support a family and the chinese get the jobs instead

on the surface and in the short run your model works

but over time America loses its wealth advantage to china

 

[Mac-7]

You missed my point. Wage growth isn't supposed to be fast.

How much is the value of having the oil changed in your car? I normally have it done for $20.

Why would you think that simply because a year went by, that now I should pay a higher price as a customer, for a simple oil change?

What have you done (if you are the guy changing the oil) that makes an oil change more valuable to me the customer?

Nothing.

I did oil changes. I got paid exactly how much the job was worth. How hard do you really think it is to turn a screw, watch the oil drain, and turn the screw back. Then screw a filter off, and screw a new filter on. Then pour in 3 qts of oil.
The entire process was 10 minutes at most.

Do you really think that is worth a middle class income? If you do, do you think customers are going to pay middle class wages for an oil change?

Why would you think, that sucking air for 12 months, magically makes your labor more valuable?

It's not.

If you want to earn more money, the solution to that is not sitting on your butt, complaining on a forum, or voting for a politician that says Government will fix your life.

The solution is not waiting around for wages to grow. The solution is to get off your butt, and find something of higher value to do.

Wage growth should be, and I would say is, completely and utterly irrelevant to how wealthy people are in this country.

Wage growth could be zero, or even negative, and you can still end up filthy rich in this country, by getting off your butt, and getting a better job, that pays better. By learning a skill, or getting into a trade, or even just saving wisely like that janitor.

That is my point.

And lastly, workers never shared in the profits ever. Whether wage growth is fast or slow, doesn't matter. Workers are not sharing in the profits, unless they buy stock in the company.

That's all cute and all, but that's not helping the economy. Wage growth is slow. The economy is slow. Inequality is growing rapidly. These aren't good things. The country was stronger with a strong middle class. You seem blind to this.

Inequality is good. You know where they have equality? Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea.

Again... doesn't matter what the wage growth is. Get off your butt, and get a better job. Then your wage will grow.

Our middle class is living a life, that 99% of the planet, could only dream about.

If you think the middle class is not strong, then you are just ignorant.

Yes some is good. Too much is bad, it slows the economy. Many studies have been done on this. Africa is loaded with countries with huge inequality. Not really the best places on the planet....

Yes wage growth does matter. When wage growth is strong people spend and the economy grows.

The middle class is shrinking. People are working more and more and getting less.

It is not strong. Earlier generations worked 40 hours for good pay and often only needed one income. They retired relatively young with a good pension and healthcare. Things are much worse.

Africa is a collection of countries with varying policies. Saying "Africa" as if that makes any valid statement about anything, is ridiculous. That's like saying "the northern hemisphere has huge inequality and not really the best places on the planet".... well yeah.

Index of Economic Freedom

Only a few countries, roughly 4 total, are even moderately capitalist.

There is no indication that "too much inequality" slows the economy. All the countries with large inequality, have the largest growth, with some of the highest standards of living.

Again, Denmark is a perfect example. The myth of equality in Denmark is ridiculous. The poor in Denmark, are poor. The rich in Denmark are filthy rich. I was reading about the girl who is part of the dynasty family that owns Legos. They are filthy stinking rich. They own yachts, and private resorts. This girl, age 30, that was born into the Lego Dynasty, she has a private horse farm, because she enjoys going to pony shows, and wining awards. So she has her own farm, with her private staff to raise horses.

The rich Lego Dynasty in Denmark, are just as filthy rich, as the Walton family in the US. You know what the difference is? You don't know how rich the Lego people are in Denmark, because they don't make that information public.

So because you don't know, you believe in a myth that inequality is lower elsewhere. Nah, it isn't.

Inequality is only lower, when everyone is equally poor.

If you see a country with high levels of inequality, it's likely capitalist, and has some of the highest standards of living in the world.

You see low levels of inequality, it's likely socialist, and people are cooking up the family dog for dinner.
Pets on the Menu as Venezuelans Starve

Yes countries in Africa are loaded with too much inequality. Here is a list of the most unequal countries:
These are the most unequal countries in the world – including South Africa
Not places I would want to live.

The Scandinavian countries are good examples with less inequality. I'd take them over the countries on the most list any day.

And yes there are studies of the effects of inequality:
Inequality hurts economic growth, finds OECD research - OECD

Too much inequality is bad, and that's where we are.

You seem to speak in fantasy rather than actual studies and facts.

The scandivinavian countries are not great powers

they depend on the tolerance of the great powers such as russia, the US and china to exist

by themselves they are helpless

if the US did did not maintain a powerful and expensive military to protect them their little version of paradise would eventually be overrun

 

[Mac-7]

It matters a great deal

if production is as inelastic as you claim and the masks are made in china which country gets the increased production when the shit hits the fan?

china of course

But that would be true here as well.

Remember the outbreak hit China first. So mask demand spiked there to start with. If the production was here in the US, those masks would be loaded on a boat, and heading for China right now.

By the time the demand hit the US, all existing stock would already be on the ocean waters between here and China.

It's a global market. That's how it is.

If the production was here in the US, those masks would be loaded on a boat, and heading for China right now.

That’ll be the day when china buys anything from the US if they can make it there

no masks would be on their way to china

and we have not even touched on the issue of Made In China drugs that are vital for the health of US citizens

Sure they would.

Look, most massive international suppliers, only have one manufacturing plant. They don't need to plants, to make the same thing. That doesn't even make sense in most cases.

You pointed out that Auto companies have manufacturing plants inside, and outside the country. True. But they don't have two plants, making identical products.

The simply don't. They would never have two different plants, making the exact same product. Even when you see two Ford plants for example that are both making a Ford Fiesta.... they are not making the same Fiesta. Some plants are making commercial version, with van style panels. Others are making ones for motor sports. Others are making a version the fits the requirements and regulations of a specific country or group of countries. (right-hand steering, instead of left-hand steering for example).

A face mask is not going to have any of those requirements.

There is no reason to build a second manufacturing plant inside the US, just for facemasks.

If they moved the plant to the US, then they would be supplying China from the US, as well as the rest of the world.

And yes, China buys stuff from the US all the time. China is constantly buying products from the US.

United States Exports By Country

China is our third largest customer of US goods.

This has been well documented for years. I don't know why you would even think to argue otherwise.

Apple sells so many iphones they could make them here and in china the same way foreign autos are built in America

That is technically true. The problem is, building them here, would double the price. No matter how good the iPhone is relative to android phones, at some price level, everyone will just go Android.

Let us even suggest that you eliminate all other phones, so the iPhone is the only option, and you can only buy from a Union shop in the US.

The iPhone would end up a luxury item, and everyone would simply make do without. Since the sales would be so small, Apple would simply not make them domestically, and the rich elites would just pay the tariff.

Either way, you are not going to Union US employees building iPhones. The math doesn't work. It will never happen.

You people seem to think that if we force people to buy domestically, that people will just cough up the money and pay the price. No they won't.

I'm not sure why this is a hard concept. If government mandated that oil changes cost $100... would you still pay someone to do your oil change? No, you'd do yourself. Or have a backyard mechanic do it for you.

You would never just cough up the $100... because I have no choice.

Just like fast food joints. If you jack up the minimum wage, and people have to pay $15 for a cheap burger, because the minimum wage is high.... people are not going to keep going to McDonald's for a cheap burger that costs $15. They will just find other ways to eat, and all those highly paid burger flippers will be unemployed.

At the very very very best possible outcome of your plan......

Apple makes an automated facilities that employs 3 guys to press the start button, and the iPhones are built by automation.

And you still won't have thousands of Union employees making iPhones. So no matter which way you go with this, there will never be union employees making iPhones by hand in the US. It will never happen. Never.

I think only a few people at Apple know how much more it would cost

and they arent saying

there would be higher wages, healthcare and government mandated regulation costs over china

but double the price?

who knows?

there is however a huge ripple affect that will help many Americans instead of the chinese

Higher prices do not help Americans.

If the price of everything goes up, because of a lack of trade... the standard of living must by necessity go down.

Protectionist anti-trade policies will help a very small select few Americans, at the expense of the entire rest of society.

If you doubt that.... why do we enact protectionism against other countries as punishment?

By your logic, putting in sanctions against Russia, should have resulted in Russia having an economic boom. Instead, the standard of living declined, as trade dried up, and Russians found the economy tanking.

Protectionism, never works to the benefit of those who engage in it.

It does when more Americans have better jobs and we are more secure

if china were japan and this was 1941 we would lose the war

Umm.... Americans do have way way better jobs than the Chinese, by a vast margin. And we are far more secure than the Chinese workers are.

Honestly, we have better jobs than most of Europe, and are more secure than they are.

Yes I agree

but it wont stay that way much longer with our stupid and suicidal trade policies with china

 

[Mac-7]

It matters a great deal

if production is as inelastic as you claim and the masks are made in china which country gets the increased production when the shit hits the fan?

china of course

But that would be true here as well.

Remember the outbreak hit China first. So mask demand spiked there to start with. If the production was here in the US, those masks would be loaded on a boat, and heading for China right now.

By the time the demand hit the US, all existing stock would already be on the ocean waters between here and China.

It's a global market. That's how it is.

If the production was here in the US, those masks would be loaded on a boat, and heading for China right now.

That’ll be the day when china buys anything from the US if they can make it there

no masks would be on their way to china

and we have not even touched on the issue of Made In China drugs that are vital for the health of US citizens

Sure they would.

Look, most massive international suppliers, only have one manufacturing plant. They don't need to plants, to make the same thing. That doesn't even make sense in most cases.

You pointed out that Auto companies have manufacturing plants inside, and outside the country. True. But they don't have two plants, making identical products.

The simply don't. They would never have two different plants, making the exact same product. Even when you see two Ford plants for example that are both making a Ford Fiesta.... they are not making the same Fiesta. Some plants are making commercial version, with van style panels. Others are making ones for motor sports. Others are making a version the fits the requirements and regulations of a specific country or group of countries. (right-hand steering, instead of left-hand steering for example).

A face mask is not going to have any of those requirements.

There is no reason to build a second manufacturing plant inside the US, just for facemasks.

If they moved the plant to the US, then they would be supplying China from the US, as well as the rest of the world.

And yes, China buys stuff from the US all the time. China is constantly buying products from the US.

United States Exports By Country

China is our third largest customer of US goods.

This has been well documented for years. I don't know why you would even think to argue otherwise.

Apple sells so many iphones they could make them here and in china the same way foreign autos are built in America

That is technically true. The problem is, building them here, would double the price. No matter how good the iPhone is relative to android phones, at some price level, everyone will just go Android.

Let us even suggest that you eliminate all other phones, so the iPhone is the only option, and you can only buy from a Union shop in the US.

The iPhone would end up a luxury item, and everyone would simply make do without. Since the sales would be so small, Apple would simply not make them domestically, and the rich elites would just pay the tariff.

Either way, you are not going to Union US employees building iPhones. The math doesn't work. It will never happen.

You people seem to think that if we force people to buy domestically, that people will just cough up the money and pay the price. No they won't.

I'm not sure why this is a hard concept. If government mandated that oil changes cost $100... would you still pay someone to do your oil change? No, you'd do yourself. Or have a backyard mechanic do it for you.

You would never just cough up the $100... because I have no choice.

Just like fast food joints. If you jack up the minimum wage, and people have to pay $15 for a cheap burger, because the minimum wage is high.... people are not going to keep going to McDonald's for a cheap burger that costs $15. They will just find other ways to eat, and all those highly paid burger flippers will be unemployed.

At the very very very best possible outcome of your plan......

Apple makes an automated facilities that employs 3 guys to press the start button, and the iPhones are built by automation.

And you still won't have thousands of Union employees making iPhones. So no matter which way you go with this, there will never be union employees making iPhones by hand in the US. It will never happen. Never.

I think only a few people at Apple know how much more it would cost

and they arent saying

there would be higher wages, healthcare and government mandated regulation costs over china

but double the price?

who knows?

there is however a huge ripple affect that will help many Americans instead of the chinese

Higher prices do not help Americans.

If the price of everything goes up, because of a lack of trade... the standard of living must by necessity go down.

Protectionist anti-trade policies will help a very small select few Americans, at the expense of the entire rest of society.

If you doubt that.... why do we enact protectionism against other countries as punishment?

By your logic, putting in sanctions against Russia, should have resulted in Russia having an economic boom. Instead, the standard of living declined, as trade dried up, and Russians found the economy tanking.

Protectionism, never works to the benefit of those who engage in it.

It does when more Americans have better jobs and we are more secure

if china were japan and this was 1941 we would lose the war

That's not what happens. Trump did his steel tariffs and now we have massive layoffs. The rest of his tariffs slowed manufacturing.

Old steel plants are closing but modern ones are taking their place

the new plants do produce steel with fewer workers however which explains the continued jobl loss

but no matter how efficient new plants are without tariff protection china can still undercut our price

 

[Mac-7]

It matters a great deal

if production is as inelastic as you claim and the masks are made in china which country gets the increased production when the shit hits the fan?

china of course

But that would be true here as well.

Remember the outbreak hit China first. So mask demand spiked there to start with. If the production was here in the US, those masks would be loaded on a boat, and heading for China right now.

By the time the demand hit the US, all existing stock would already be on the ocean waters between here and China.

It's a global market. That's how it is.

If the production was here in the US, those masks would be loaded on a boat, and heading for China right now.

That’ll be the day when china buys anything from the US if they can make it there

no masks would be on their way to china

and we have not even touched on the issue of Made In China drugs that are vital for the health of US citizens

Sure they would.

Look, most massive international suppliers, only have one manufacturing plant. They don't need to plants, to make the same thing. That doesn't even make sense in most cases.

You pointed out that Auto companies have manufacturing plants inside, and outside the country. True. But they don't have two plants, making identical products.

The simply don't. They would never have two different plants, making the exact same product. Even when you see two Ford plants for example that are both making a Ford Fiesta.... they are not making the same Fiesta. Some plants are making commercial version, with van style panels. Others are making ones for motor sports. Others are making a version the fits the requirements and regulations of a specific country or group of countries. (right-hand steering, instead of left-hand steering for example).

A face mask is not going to have any of those requirements.

There is no reason to build a second manufacturing plant inside the US, just for facemasks.

If they moved the plant to the US, then they would be supplying China from the US, as well as the rest of the world.

And yes, China buys stuff from the US all the time. China is constantly buying products from the US.

United States Exports By Country

China is our third largest customer of US goods.

This has been well documented for years. I don't know why you would even think to argue otherwise.

According to your reference china buys $120 bil from us and we buy about $600 bil from them

that is not healthy for America

Why? They send us $600 billion in actual product and for that we only send them $120 billion in product. Sounds like a good trade to me.

Ask the millions of Americans who struggle to stay in the middle class thanks to the trade imbalance how good it is

your cheap iPhone costs the nation more than you realize

 

[Brain357]

But that would be true here as well.

Remember the outbreak hit China first. So mask demand spiked there to start with. If the production was here in the US, those masks would be loaded on a boat, and heading for China right now.

By the time the demand hit the US, all existing stock would already be on the ocean waters between here and China.

It's a global market. That's how it is.

If the production was here in the US, those masks would be loaded on a boat, and heading for China right now.

That’ll be the day when china buys anything from the US if they can make it there

no masks would be on their way to china

and we have not even touched on the issue of Made In China drugs that are vital for the health of US citizens

Sure they would.

Look, most massive international suppliers, only have one manufacturing plant. They don't need to plants, to make the same thing. That doesn't even make sense in most cases.

You pointed out that Auto companies have manufacturing plants inside, and outside the country. True. But they don't have two plants, making identical products.

The simply don't. They would never have two different plants, making the exact same product. Even when you see two Ford plants for example that are both making a Ford Fiesta.... they are not making the same Fiesta. Some plants are making commercial version, with van style panels. Others are making ones for motor sports. Others are making a version the fits the requirements and regulations of a specific country or group of countries. (right-hand steering, instead of left-hand steering for example).

A face mask is not going to have any of those requirements.

There is no reason to build a second manufacturing plant inside the US, just for facemasks.

If they moved the plant to the US, then they would be supplying China from the US, as well as the rest of the world.

And yes, China buys stuff from the US all the time. China is constantly buying products from the US.

United States Exports By Country

China is our third largest customer of US goods.

This has been well documented for years. I don't know why you would even think to argue otherwise.

According to your reference china buys $120 bil from us and we buy about $600 bil from them

that is not healthy for America

Why? They send us $600 billion in actual product and for that we only send them $120 billion in product. Sounds like a good trade to me.

Ask the millions of Americans who struggle to stay in the middle class thanks to the trade imbalance how good it is

your cheap iPhone costs the nation more than you realize

It’s not a trade issue. We have low unemployment and lots and lots of wealth.

 

[Brain357]

That's all cute and all, but that's not helping the economy. Wage growth is slow. The economy is slow. Inequality is growing rapidly. These aren't good things. The country was stronger with a strong middle class. You seem blind to this.

Inequality is good. You know where they have equality? Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea.

Again... doesn't matter what the wage growth is. Get off your butt, and get a better job. Then your wage will grow.

Our middle class is living a life, that 99% of the planet, could only dream about.

If you think the middle class is not strong, then you are just ignorant.

Yes some is good. Too much is bad, it slows the economy. Many studies have been done on this. Africa is loaded with countries with huge inequality. Not really the best places on the planet....

Yes wage growth does matter. When wage growth is strong people spend and the economy grows.

The middle class is shrinking. People are working more and more and getting less.

It is not strong. Earlier generations worked 40 hours for good pay and often only needed one income. They retired relatively young with a good pension and healthcare. Things are much worse.

Africa is a collection of countries with varying policies. Saying "Africa" as if that makes any valid statement about anything, is ridiculous. That's like saying "the northern hemisphere has huge inequality and not really the best places on the planet".... well yeah.

Index of Economic Freedom

Only a few countries, roughly 4 total, are even moderately capitalist.

There is no indication that "too much inequality" slows the economy. All the countries with large inequality, have the largest growth, with some of the highest standards of living.

Again, Denmark is a perfect example. The myth of equality in Denmark is ridiculous. The poor in Denmark, are poor. The rich in Denmark are filthy rich. I was reading about the girl who is part of the dynasty family that owns Legos. They are filthy stinking rich. They own yachts, and private resorts. This girl, age 30, that was born into the Lego Dynasty, she has a private horse farm, because she enjoys going to pony shows, and wining awards. So she has her own farm, with her private staff to raise horses.

The rich Lego Dynasty in Denmark, are just as filthy rich, as the Walton family in the US. You know what the difference is? You don't know how rich the Lego people are in Denmark, because they don't make that information public.

So because you don't know, you believe in a myth that inequality is lower elsewhere. Nah, it isn't.

Inequality is only lower, when everyone is equally poor.

If you see a country with high levels of inequality, it's likely capitalist, and has some of the highest standards of living in the world.

You see low levels of inequality, it's likely socialist, and people are cooking up the family dog for dinner.
Pets on the Menu as Venezuelans Starve

Yes countries in Africa are loaded with too much inequality. Here is a list of the most unequal countries:
These are the most unequal countries in the world – including South Africa
Not places I would want to live.

The Scandinavian countries are good examples with less inequality. I'd take them over the countries on the most list any day.

And yes there are studies of the effects of inequality:
Inequality hurts economic growth, finds OECD research - OECD

Too much inequality is bad, and that's where we are.

You seem to speak in fantasy rather than actual studies and facts.

Somehow I doubt that information is even remotely accurate.

They have Venezuela on there, and truthfully the vast majority of people with wealth, have left the country. We know this for a fact. Almost half a million are in Spain already. Not to mention all the business owners that are now in Florida, and the millions on millions spread across Columbia, Ecuador and so on.

So logically I would expect that the inequality would go down, rather than up, given the fact that millions of the wealthy have fled the country.

But perhaps their is another element going on that I don't know about.

If however, the information is accurate somehow, than that simply proves there is no positive or negative to inequality. There is still zero evidence that equality results are good.

In fact, in looking at the data more closely, the more ridiculous it looks.

Algeria has a 27. Mali is 33. Liberia is 35.

France is 32. The US is 41.

Really? So Algeria is better than the US and France? Mali and Liberia and a number of other nations in Africa are right on par with Europe?

Garbage garbage garbage.

Gini Index Definition

All you did was prove to me conclusively, that the GINI is a useless index.

Turkey and the U.S. both had income Gini coefficients around 0.39-0.40 in 2016, according to the OECD, though Turkey's GDP per person was less than half the U.S.'s (in 2010 dollar terms).
​

So Turkey and the US are on equal terms according to the GINI coefficient.
Case closed. Class dismissed. The prosecution rests, your honor.

By your logic, there are about a dozen countries in Africa, and elsewhere like Iraq, Azerbaijan, Slovakia, and so on, that are all much better places to live, because they are more equal.

And at the same time, the most wealthy places to live in Africa, South Africa (63) and Nigeria (43), have some of the highest inequality.

So the two places in Africa that have standard of living closest to the US, have higher inequality than the US.

Heck the Ukraine and Belarus, both have 25. Are you kidding me? Ukraine and Belarus are better than western Europe and the US, because they are more equal?

... are we done here? Because I think that was as close to an intellectual self-own, as we can get. Destroyed your own position with your own data set.

Now I'm all for poor people earning more. The way you do that, is the same way anyone earns more. You work hard, get a better job, learn new skills, and work your way up. The solution isn't take more money from the people who create jobs, so that there are fewer jobs.

You seem to be making the mistake of thinking it is the only factor. That's pretty silly. There are many factors of course, but it's clear that too much inequality slows an economy. And some of the worst countries in the world have the most inequality. That's what's happening to us. Trump unloaded the entire republican economic growth playbook and couldn't hit 3%. The workers are getting hosed here. More power to workers is how we grow the economy.

 

[Mac-7]

If the production was here in the US, those masks would be loaded on a boat, and heading for China right now.

That’ll be the day when china buys anything from the US if they can make it there

no masks would be on their way to china

and we have not even touched on the issue of Made In China drugs that are vital for the health of US citizens

Sure they would.

Look, most massive international suppliers, only have one manufacturing plant. They don't need to plants, to make the same thing. That doesn't even make sense in most cases.

You pointed out that Auto companies have manufacturing plants inside, and outside the country. True. But they don't have two plants, making identical products.

The simply don't. They would never have two different plants, making the exact same product. Even when you see two Ford plants for example that are both making a Ford Fiesta.... they are not making the same Fiesta. Some plants are making commercial version, with van style panels. Others are making ones for motor sports. Others are making a version the fits the requirements and regulations of a specific country or group of countries. (right-hand steering, instead of left-hand steering for example).

A face mask is not going to have any of those requirements.

There is no reason to build a second manufacturing plant inside the US, just for facemasks.

If they moved the plant to the US, then they would be supplying China from the US, as well as the rest of the world.

And yes, China buys stuff from the US all the time. China is constantly buying products from the US.

United States Exports By Country

China is our third largest customer of US goods.

This has been well documented for years. I don't know why you would even think to argue otherwise.

According to your reference china buys $120 bil from us and we buy about $600 bil from them

that is not healthy for America

Why? They send us $600 billion in actual product and for that we only send them $120 billion in product. Sounds like a good trade to me.

Ask the millions of Americans who struggle to stay in the middle class thanks to the trade imbalance how good it is

your cheap iPhone costs the nation more than you realize

It’s not a trade issue. We have low unemployment and lots and lots of wealth.

Low unemployment but low wages in many dead end jobs

we can do better

 

[Brain357]

Sure they would.

Look, most massive international suppliers, only have one manufacturing plant. They don't need to plants, to make the same thing. That doesn't even make sense in most cases.

You pointed out that Auto companies have manufacturing plants inside, and outside the country. True. But they don't have two plants, making identical products.

The simply don't. They would never have two different plants, making the exact same product. Even when you see two Ford plants for example that are both making a Ford Fiesta.... they are not making the same Fiesta. Some plants are making commercial version, with van style panels. Others are making ones for motor sports. Others are making a version the fits the requirements and regulations of a specific country or group of countries. (right-hand steering, instead of left-hand steering for example).

A face mask is not going to have any of those requirements.

There is no reason to build a second manufacturing plant inside the US, just for facemasks.

If they moved the plant to the US, then they would be supplying China from the US, as well as the rest of the world.

And yes, China buys stuff from the US all the time. China is constantly buying products from the US.

United States Exports By Country

China is our third largest customer of US goods.

This has been well documented for years. I don't know why you would even think to argue otherwise.

According to your reference china buys $120 bil from us and we buy about $600 bil from them

that is not healthy for America

Why? They send us $600 billion in actual product and for that we only send them $120 billion in product. Sounds like a good trade to me.

Ask the millions of Americans who struggle to stay in the middle class thanks to the trade imbalance how good it is

your cheap iPhone costs the nation more than you realize

It’s not a trade issue. We have low unemployment and lots and lots of wealth.

Low unemployment but low wages in many dead end jobs

we can do better

Yes we can. We have plenty of jobs and lots of wealth. It’s not a trade issue that our workers aren’t being paid well. The wealth to do it is here.

 

[Mac-7]

The

According to your reference china buys $120 bil from us and we buy about $600 bil from them

that is not healthy for America

Why? They send us $600 billion in actual product and for that we only send them $120 billion in product. Sounds like a good trade to me.

Ask the millions of Americans who struggle to stay in the middle class thanks to the trade imbalance how good it is

your cheap iPhone costs the nation more than you realize

It’s not a trade issue. We have low unemployment and lots and lots of wealth.

Low unemployment but low wages in many dead end jobs

we can do better

Yes we can. We have plenty of jobs and lots of wealth. It’s not a trade issue that our workers aren’t being paid well. The wealth to do it is here.

wrong

this is all about trade with dirt poor countries that drive down wages for Americans

 

[Brain357]

The

Why? They send us $600 billion in actual product and for that we only send them $120 billion in product. Sounds like a good trade to me.

Ask the millions of Americans who struggle to stay in the middle class thanks to the trade imbalance how good it is

your cheap iPhone costs the nation more than you realize

It’s not a trade issue. We have low unemployment and lots and lots of wealth.

Low unemployment but low wages in many dead end jobs

we can do better

Yes we can. We have plenty of jobs and lots of wealth. It’s not a trade issue that our workers aren’t being paid well. The wealth to do it is here.

wrong

this is all about trade with dirt poor countries that drive down wages for Americans

We have low unemployment and tons of wealth. There is no reason our wages shouldn’t be higher. The wealth is here to pay them.

 

[Mac-7]

The

Ask the millions of Americans who struggle to stay in the middle class thanks to the trade imbalance how good it is

your cheap iPhone costs the nation more than you realize

It’s not a trade issue. We have low unemployment and lots and lots of wealth.

Low unemployment but low wages in many dead end jobs

we can do better

Yes we can. We have plenty of jobs and lots of wealth. It’s not a trade issue that our workers aren’t being paid well. The wealth to do it is here.

wrong

this is all about trade with dirt poor countries that drive down wages for Americans

We have low unemployment and tons of wealth. There is no reason our wages shouldn’t be higher. The wealth is here to pay them.

I think you mean pinheads in washington who never ran a lemonade stand telling businessmen how much to pay their employees

thats a recipe for diaster

 

[Brain357]

The

It’s not a trade issue. We have low unemployment and lots and lots of wealth.

Low unemployment but low wages in many dead end jobs

we can do better

Yes we can. We have plenty of jobs and lots of wealth. It’s not a trade issue that our workers aren’t being paid well. The wealth to do it is here.

wrong

this is all about trade with dirt poor countries that drive down wages for Americans

We have low unemployment and tons of wealth. There is no reason our wages shouldn’t be higher. The wealth is here to pay them.

I think you mean pinheads in washington who never ran a lemonade stand telling businessmen how much to pay their employees

thats a recipe for diaster

I don’t mean anything. I’m giving you the facts. Unemployment has been super low and we have more than enough wealth. Workers not getting paid is obviously an internal problem. If unemployment was really high you might have a point. Under these circumstances it’s obviously an internal problem.