Would you support subsidizing...

[Andylusion]

It depends. . . should we have a military?

You dodged a lot...

No. . . my original contention on that whole matter was, some industries should be subsidized, ONLY BASED ON NATIONAL SECURITY GROUNDS.

This is the only reason we have the AG BILL.

If you believe we should even have a government, or if that is the reason we have a government in the first place, FOR NATIONAL SECURITY, that was my original participation in the thread.

You folks are putting up straw-men. i.e. Socialism, government choosing winners and losers, etc. Stop being so hyperbolic. I just don't think the nation should be at the mercy of just in time production and just in time international supply chains for critical necessities. If you have a better solution for this problem? I am all ears.

I suggest you go back and read my very cautious and measured response to the OP.


If, indeed, we accept the premise, that the job of the government is to stabilize society, that it should find someway to mitigate against the affects of "just in time" production for goods, that we as a society deem as critical to the orderly functioning of society. THAT is all I was trying to putting forward.

". . .Natural and man-made disasters will disrupt the flow of energy, goods and services. The down-stream customers of those goods and services will, in turn, not be able to produce their product or render their service because they were counting on incoming deliveries "just in time" and so have little or no inventory to work with. The disruption to the economic system will cascade to some degree depending on the nature and severity of the original disaster.[46][47] The larger the disaster the worse the effect on just-in-time failures. Electrical power is the ultimate example of just-in-time delivery. A severe geomagnetic storm could disrupt electrical power delivery for hours to years, locally or even globally. Lack of supplies on hand to repair the electrical system would have catastrophic effects.[48]"
Just-in-time manufacturing - Wikipedia

Now, if, on the OTH, you do not believe we should be civilized, or even have a government, or that government should not have a national security role? I can respect that too.

What you are suggesting just doesn’t work. Do we have a shortage of something now? What problem are you trying to fix?

The fact that the AG BILL works, demonstrates empirically, IMO, we can do something.

From this point on? We shall just have to agree to disagree.

Now, I will agree with you, that there are many that absolutely HATE the AG BILL, on that, we can agree. Small farmers, international producers, organic farmers, poor farmers that are overseas, etc.

But, IMO, that AG BILL stabilizes prices for domestic consumers, especially the poor people in this nation.

I guess you haven't been paying attention. Most folks that work in the medical community KNOW there is a shortage of face masks. These were all produced in China. The Chinese government is determining where they will send all of the face-masks that they produce throughout the world.

Doesn't it bother you that China has got handle on this pandemic already, but they have a near monopoly on the production and control of medical supplies?

In essence. the Chinese government gets to decide where the pandemic spreads the quickest. They could also do this if we were in a military confrontation with them.

Not Enough Face Masks Are Made In America To Deal With Coronavirus
Not Enough Face Masks Are Made In America To Deal With Coronavirus

". . .The seeds of that problem, says Bowen, can be traced back 15 years. That's when many mask factories moved overseas, where masks could be made at a fraction of Bowen's costs.

Most notably, he says, Kimberly-Clark, which used to be one of the industry leaders, moved its operations.

"The surgical mask supply went from being 90% U.S.-made to being 95% foreign-made in literally one year," Bowen says.

For years, Bowen tried to get the government to pay attention to this issue. He wrote letters to Presidents Obama and Trump, warning that an epidemic could prompt China to stop exporting its supply, leaving American health care in a bind.

He wanted the U.S. government to mandate that hospitals buy more American-made products.

"If every hospital would pay just a few cents more for a mask, there wouldn't be an issue here," he says.

The coronavirus is proving Bowen right. Now, he has the administration's attention.

Last week, Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar told the House Appropriations Committee that the country needs 25 times more masks than it currently has stockpiled.. . ." (npr.org)

U.S. Dependence on Pharmaceutical Products From China

America's Monopoly Crisis Hits the Military | The American Conservative

Coronavirus Spurs U.S. Efforts to End China’s Chokehold on Drugs

China pushes all-out production of face masks in virus fight

People line up outside a drugstore in the northeastern Chinese city of Dalian, hoping to buy facemasks on Jan. 31.

Our mask shortage is because of piss poor prior planning, not "because China".

I'm not even sure that it's because of poor planning even.

The demand for masks in the US, was at a specific level prior to this year.

The manufacturing of masks is built on that level of demand.
The logistics of distributing the produced masks, is built around that level of demand.

Then in a matter of 2 months, demand went from a normal level, to an insanely high level.

What amount of "planning" did you expect, could prevent this?

Companies can't afford to buy multiple millions of dollars in machines that are going to sit around idle for... decades, because we're "planning" for a world wide pandemic to hit.

Transport companies can't have fleets of trucks on standby for decades, just waiting for the pandemic to hit, so they can swing into action and distribute masks.

And lastly, you can't just store 300 millions masks. One, that cost money to store such things. Two, masks have a shelf life.

Why Do Disposable Respirators Have a Defined Shelf Life? |

My understand is that, the filtering elements used in these masks, will naturally decay over time.

So what sort of "planning" would you have suggested here?

At the last company I worked for, the standard time to setup a supply change, was consider half a year. All things considered, to setup a supply chain from scratch, to delivering product, was 6 months.

That would mean, if the CDC had started country wide face mask distribution planning in January, by July is when we would expect the national results of dramatically increasing production, and logistics to start delivering wide spread.

Remember the manufacturers themselves would max out their production ability pretty quick.

To bring on new manufacturing production, could easily take months. Ordering new machines, having them installed, hiring people to train, and then having them run the machines, getting new transportation hired, and having them start shipping....

And then if you really want to be honest, anything that involves government, is going to take even longer to setup, than a private company.

So I'm just curious.. what planning do you think needed done?

 

[g5000]

What amount of "planning" did you expect, could prevent this?

During the era of Mutual Assured Destruction, the federal government established bomb shelters in every city and most towns. Usually under the post office.

These were stocked with food and water.

Most of that food ended up rotting, but it was still prudent to do that kind of preparation.

In the era of swine flu, SARS, MERS, and Ebola it is prudent to stock up on masks and other medical supplies.

 

[Andylusion]

What amount of "planning" did you expect, could prevent this?

During the era of Mutual Assured Destruction, the federal government established bomb shelters in every city and most towns. Usually under the post office.

These were stocked with food and water.

Most of that food ended up rotting, but it was still prudent to do that kind of preparation.

In the era of swine flu, SARS, MERS, and Ebola it is prudent to stock up on masks and other medical supplies.

Ironically, that example you gave, is almost exactly the kind of example I would have pointed to, as to why trying to prepare is pointless.

Even when most of those bomb shelters were built, they are ridiculous. A town of 2,000, with a bomb shelter built for 380? Enough water in the shelter that in a matter of 10 years, was no longer safe to drink? An air filtration system that barely functioned when new, had questionable value against any contamination, and was covered in mold in a matter of I believe I read 8 years?

And for what? By the time Hawaii had their false alarm, no one even remembered that such a place existed, or that it was stocked with anything.

How many billions of dollars in current money, was spent building such places, to have all of it be tossed in the trash? Or worse, not tossed in the trash, and now are used by urban decay explorers to make youtube videos, poking fun at the past.

Again for what?

If we had stocked up on medical supplies ten years ago, not one of those medical supplies would be good today. Would you want to be on the receiving end, getting a mask that could be more dangerous to you, than not having one at all? Mold grows on nearly anything. Even the smallest pin-hole puncture in a bag of masks can result in toxic mold growing inside the mask fibers.

You want that?

No, I don't think keeping millions of masks stored in FEMA warehouses, is a brilliant idea. Quite frankly, given how the FEMA trailers had formaldehyde problems, I don't think government being involved in this at all, is all that smart.

It's amazing how many millions of times, government screws stuff up, and we still end up with people wanting government more involved. How many times does it take, before we stop looking to government for solutions?

 

[Brain357]

The OP doesn't realize there was a reason we wanted unions to become extinct.

Stagnant wages?

 

[Andylusion]

The OP doesn't realize there was a reason we wanted unions to become extinct.

Stagnant wages?

If I agree to mow your lawn for $30, do you pay me more money every single mow? Next year if I demanded $60, would you pay it?

Why do you think that simply existing, means you should be paid more?

You want to earn more money? Great. Me too. Here's how you do that... do work that has more value.

You learn a skill or trade, or be willing to work more hours, or something that increases your value.

Having a Union may increase your pay in the short term, but in the long run, you end up destroying your own jobs. The value of your work, does not increase, because the Union or Government said so.

That's why Chrysler and GM failed, and tens of thousands lost their jobs, and Honda and Toyota did not, and tens of thousands kept their jobs.

That's why Hostess under the Union went bankrupt, and Hostess as a non-union is now profitable.

 

[Brain357]

The OP doesn't realize there was a reason we wanted unions to become extinct.

Stagnant wages?

If I agree to mow your lawn for $30, do you pay me more money every single mow? Next year if I demanded $60, would you pay it?

Why do you think that simply existing, means you should be paid more?

You want to earn more money? Great. Me too. Here's how you do that... do work that has more value.

You learn a skill or trade, or be willing to work more hours, or something that increases your value.

Having a Union may increase your pay in the short term, but in the long run, you end up destroying your own jobs. The value of your work, does not increase, because the Union or Government said so.

That's why Chrysler and GM failed, and tens of thousands lost their jobs, and Honda and Toyota did not, and tens of thousands kept their jobs.

That's why Hostess under the Union went bankrupt, and Hostess as a non-union is now profitable.

The car companies failed because the execs made bad choices. They were making cars people didn’t want. The economy was much stronger with strong unions. Now we have weak growth and growing inequality.

 

[Mac-7]

...U.S. re-industrialization?

Why or why not?

Absolutely YES

 

[Mac-7]

What amount of "planning" did you expect, could prevent this?

During the era of Mutual Assured Destruction, the federal government established bomb shelters in every city and most towns. Usually under the post office.

These were stocked with food and water.

Most of that food ended up rotting, but it was still prudent to do that kind of preparation.

In the era of swine flu, SARS, MERS, and Ebola it is prudent to stock up on masks and other medical supplies.

Ironically, that example you gave, is almost exactly the kind of example I would have pointed to, as to why trying to prepare is pointless.

Even when most of those bomb shelters were built, they are ridiculous. A town of 2,000, with a bomb shelter built for 380? Enough water in the shelter that in a matter of 10 years, was no longer safe to drink? An air filtration system that barely functioned when new, had questionable value against any contamination, and was covered in mold in a matter of I believe I read 8 years?

And for what? By the time Hawaii had their false alarm, no one even remembered that such a place existed, or that it was stocked with anything.

How many billions of dollars in current money, was spent building such places, to have all of it be tossed in the trash? Or worse, not tossed in the trash, and now are used by urban decay explorers to make youtube videos, poking fun at the past.

Again for what?

If we had stocked up on medical supplies ten years ago, not one of those medical supplies would be good today. Would you want to be on the receiving end, getting a mask that could be more dangerous to you, than not having one at all? Mold grows on nearly anything. Even the smallest pin-hole puncture in a bag of masks can result in toxic mold growing inside the mask fibers.

You want that?

No, I don't think keeping millions of masks stored in FEMA warehouses, is a brilliant idea. Quite frankly, given how the FEMA trailers had formaldehyde problems, I don't think government being involved in this at all, is all that smart.

It's amazing how many millions of times, government screws stuff up, and we still end up with people wanting government more involved. How many times does it take, before we stop looking to government for solutions?

We consume millions of masks every year

if those masks are made in America we dont have to depend on china

 

[Andylusion]

The OP doesn't realize there was a reason we wanted unions to become extinct.

Stagnant wages?

If I agree to mow your lawn for $30, do you pay me more money every single mow? Next year if I demanded $60, would you pay it?

Why do you think that simply existing, means you should be paid more?

You want to earn more money? Great. Me too. Here's how you do that... do work that has more value.

You learn a skill or trade, or be willing to work more hours, or something that increases your value.

Having a Union may increase your pay in the short term, but in the long run, you end up destroying your own jobs. The value of your work, does not increase, because the Union or Government said so.

That's why Chrysler and GM failed, and tens of thousands lost their jobs, and Honda and Toyota did not, and tens of thousands kept their jobs.

That's why Hostess under the Union went bankrupt, and Hostess as a non-union is now profitable.

The car companies failed because the execs made bad choices. They were making cars people didn’t want. The economy was much stronger with strong unions. Now we have weak growth and growing inequality.

False, by any measure. GM was still the number one car manufacturer, even during the worst part of the recession. How can you claim GM was making cars people didn't want, when GMs cars were consistently outselling all the competition?

Here is the reality. The average cost of Big auto union labor, is dramatically more expensive than the cost of labor at non-union shops. The result of that, is while they produce more cars that more people want, and dramatically out sell the competition, because the cost of labor is so high, they really don't produce much profit from it.

That lack of profit, resulted in bankruptcy.

The Unions bankrupted GM and Chrysler. Ford was only spared because Ford had already gotten concessions from the Auto Unions before the crash.

 

[Andylusion]

What amount of "planning" did you expect, could prevent this?

During the era of Mutual Assured Destruction, the federal government established bomb shelters in every city and most towns. Usually under the post office.

These were stocked with food and water.

Most of that food ended up rotting, but it was still prudent to do that kind of preparation.

In the era of swine flu, SARS, MERS, and Ebola it is prudent to stock up on masks and other medical supplies.

Ironically, that example you gave, is almost exactly the kind of example I would have pointed to, as to why trying to prepare is pointless.

Even when most of those bomb shelters were built, they are ridiculous. A town of 2,000, with a bomb shelter built for 380? Enough water in the shelter that in a matter of 10 years, was no longer safe to drink? An air filtration system that barely functioned when new, had questionable value against any contamination, and was covered in mold in a matter of I believe I read 8 years?

And for what? By the time Hawaii had their false alarm, no one even remembered that such a place existed, or that it was stocked with anything.

How many billions of dollars in current money, was spent building such places, to have all of it be tossed in the trash? Or worse, not tossed in the trash, and now are used by urban decay explorers to make youtube videos, poking fun at the past.

Again for what?

If we had stocked up on medical supplies ten years ago, not one of those medical supplies would be good today. Would you want to be on the receiving end, getting a mask that could be more dangerous to you, than not having one at all? Mold grows on nearly anything. Even the smallest pin-hole puncture in a bag of masks can result in toxic mold growing inside the mask fibers.

You want that?

No, I don't think keeping millions of masks stored in FEMA warehouses, is a brilliant idea. Quite frankly, given how the FEMA trailers had formaldehyde problems, I don't think government being involved in this at all, is all that smart.

It's amazing how many millions of times, government screws stuff up, and we still end up with people wanting government more involved. How many times does it take, before we stop looking to government for solutions?

We consume millions of masks every year

if those masks are made in America we dont have to depend on china

Not really relevant to the discussion. It doesn't matter where the masks are made. Wherever they are made, they only have enough staff and machines to produce masks to meet the typical demand of a normal year.

They don't have a half dozen multi-million dollar machines laying around, just waiting to be switched on in case of a world wide pandemic.

It takes time, months, likely half a year, to buy new machines, setup those new machines, hire staff and train them on the new machines, and then start supplying additional masks.

 

[Andylusion]

Venezuela does a lot is subsidizing, you like the results?

Venezuela's problems have nothing to do with that.

Venezuela's problems have to do with that fact that the entire globalist ruling elite has banned them from buying and selling on the world market.

It is like siege warfare. Their nation is under siege, because the global elites don't approve of who their population voted for. Only a few nations have agree to trade with them.

Plus, they do not have a very diversified economy. Their entire GDP is based on the export of one resource.

IN SHORT, you are making a false equivalency fallacy.

Do you really want to compare Venezuela with the USA and expect to be taken seriously?


Goobers, that is something that the folks you often argue with always do to you, when you are arguing for the policies you support.

So you think socialism works then?

That doesn't answer the question. Do you think government should decide how society invests its wealth?

It depends. . . should we have a military?

Try saying something relevant to the conversation.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

So you want our government to allow Apple to treat American factory workers like slaves, and have them live in company barracks with suicide nets, and pay them peanuts like they can do in China?

Seems like a strawman...not a serious question.

So here is a non-serious answer...

I'd prefer that Apple made phones here and paid a UAW wage...and protected that wage through tarriffs if necessary.

Apple? United Auto Workers? What drugs are you on?

 

[Mac-7]

What amount of "planning" did you expect, could prevent this?

During the era of Mutual Assured Destruction, the federal government established bomb shelters in every city and most towns. Usually under the post office.

These were stocked with food and water.

Most of that food ended up rotting, but it was still prudent to do that kind of preparation.

In the era of swine flu, SARS, MERS, and Ebola it is prudent to stock up on masks and other medical supplies.

Ironically, that example you gave, is almost exactly the kind of example I would have pointed to, as to why trying to prepare is pointless.

Even when most of those bomb shelters were built, they are ridiculous. A town of 2,000, with a bomb shelter built for 380? Enough water in the shelter that in a matter of 10 years, was no longer safe to drink? An air filtration system that barely functioned when new, had questionable value against any contamination, and was covered in mold in a matter of I believe I read 8 years?

And for what? By the time Hawaii had their false alarm, no one even remembered that such a place existed, or that it was stocked with anything.

How many billions of dollars in current money, was spent building such places, to have all of it be tossed in the trash? Or worse, not tossed in the trash, and now are used by urban decay explorers to make youtube videos, poking fun at the past.

Again for what?

If we had stocked up on medical supplies ten years ago, not one of those medical supplies would be good today. Would you want to be on the receiving end, getting a mask that could be more dangerous to you, than not having one at all? Mold grows on nearly anything. Even the smallest pin-hole puncture in a bag of masks can result in toxic mold growing inside the mask fibers.

You want that?

No, I don't think keeping millions of masks stored in FEMA warehouses, is a brilliant idea. Quite frankly, given how the FEMA trailers had formaldehyde problems, I don't think government being involved in this at all, is all that smart.

It's amazing how many millions of times, government screws stuff up, and we still end up with people wanting government more involved. How many times does it take, before we stop looking to government for solutions?

We consume millions of masks every year

if those masks are made in America we dont have to depend on china

Not really relevant to the discussion. It doesn't matter where the masks are made. Wherever they are made, they only have enough staff and machines to produce masks to meet the typical demand of a normal year.

They don't have a half dozen multi-million dollar machines laying around, just waiting to be switched on in case of a world wide pandemic.

It takes time, months, likely half a year, to buy new machines, setup those new machines, hire staff and train them on the new machines, and then start supplying additional masks.

It matters a great deal

if production is as inelastic as you claim and the masks are made in china which country gets the increased production when the shit hits the fan?

china of course

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

You feel the need to subsidize something? Look at our education system. It fucking sucks. That's where our biggest problem is, not China.

"Oh, no! He's going socialist!"

Our education system is the envy of the world.

 

[Brain357]

The OP doesn't realize there was a reason we wanted unions to become extinct.

Stagnant wages?

If I agree to mow your lawn for $30, do you pay me more money every single mow? Next year if I demanded $60, would you pay it?

Why do you think that simply existing, means you should be paid more?

You want to earn more money? Great. Me too. Here's how you do that... do work that has more value.

You learn a skill or trade, or be willing to work more hours, or something that increases your value.

Having a Union may increase your pay in the short term, but in the long run, you end up destroying your own jobs. The value of your work, does not increase, because the Union or Government said so.

That's why Chrysler and GM failed, and tens of thousands lost their jobs, and Honda and Toyota did not, and tens of thousands kept their jobs.

That's why Hostess under the Union went bankrupt, and Hostess as a non-union is now profitable.

The car companies failed because the execs made bad choices. They were making cars people didn’t want. The economy was much stronger with strong unions. Now we have weak growth and growing inequality.

False, by any measure. GM was still the number one car manufacturer, even during the worst part of the recession. How can you claim GM was making cars people didn't want, when GMs cars were consistently outselling all the competition?

Here is the reality. The average cost of Big auto union labor, is dramatically more expensive than the cost of labor at non-union shops. The result of that, is while they produce more cars that more people want, and dramatically out sell the competition, because the cost of labor is so high, they really don't produce much profit from it.

That lack of profit, resulted in bankruptcy.

The Unions bankrupted GM and Chrysler. Ford was only spared because Ford had already gotten concessions from the Auto Unions before the crash.

The war on unions has gotten us slow growth and growing inequality. That fight has been a loser for the country.

 

[Andylusion]

So you want our government to allow Apple to treat American factory workers like slaves, and have them live in company barracks with suicide nets, and pay them peanuts like they can do in China?

Seems like a strawman...not a serious question.

So here is a non-serious answer...

I'd prefer that Apple made phones here and paid a UAW wage...and protected that wage through tarriffs if necessary.

That isn't going to happen either way.

An Apple iPhone 11 is $1,000. People are simply not going to pay $2,000, so that some Union fat-cat can sit at his desk sleeping. Not going to happen. Ever.

The iPhone 11, would simply end up being sold in the rest of the world, while Americans would end up using either older iPhones, or Android phones.

More than half of all iPhone sales are outside the US. More than half.

Apple is not going to move operations to the US, and lose half the market. Not going to happen.

 

[Mac-7]

What amount of "planning" did you expect, could prevent this?

During the era of Mutual Assured Destruction, the federal government established bomb shelters in every city and most towns. Usually under the post office.

These were stocked with food and water.

Most of that food ended up rotting, but it was still prudent to do that kind of preparation.

In the era of swine flu, SARS, MERS, and Ebola it is prudent to stock up on masks and other medical supplies.

Ironically, that example you gave, is almost exactly the kind of example I would have pointed to, as to why trying to prepare is pointless.

Even when most of those bomb shelters were built, they are ridiculous. A town of 2,000, with a bomb shelter built for 380? Enough water in the shelter that in a matter of 10 years, was no longer safe to drink? An air filtration system that barely functioned when new, had questionable value against any contamination, and was covered in mold in a matter of I believe I read 8 years?

And for what? By the time Hawaii had their false alarm, no one even remembered that such a place existed, or that it was stocked with anything.

How many billions of dollars in current money, was spent building such places, to have all of it be tossed in the trash? Or worse, not tossed in the trash, and now are used by urban decay explorers to make youtube videos, poking fun at the past.

Again for what?

If we had stocked up on medical supplies ten years ago, not one of those medical supplies would be good today. Would you want to be on the receiving end, getting a mask that could be more dangerous to you, than not having one at all? Mold grows on nearly anything. Even the smallest pin-hole puncture in a bag of masks can result in toxic mold growing inside the mask fibers.

You want that?

No, I don't think keeping millions of masks stored in FEMA warehouses, is a brilliant idea. Quite frankly, given how the FEMA trailers had formaldehyde problems, I don't think government being involved in this at all, is all that smart.

It's amazing how many millions of times, government screws stuff up, and we still end up with people wanting government more involved. How many times does it take, before we stop looking to government for solutions?

We consume millions of masks every year

if those masks are made in America we dont have to depend on china

Not really relevant to the discussion. It doesn't matter where the masks are made. Wherever they are made, they only have enough staff and machines to produce masks to meet the typical demand of a normal year.

They don't have a half dozen multi-million dollar machines laying around, just waiting to be switched on in case of a world wide pandemic.

It takes time, months, likely half a year, to buy new machines, setup those new machines, hire staff and train them on the new machines, and then start supplying additional masks.

It takes time, months, likely half a year, to buy new machines, setup those new machines, hire staff and train them on the new machines, and then start supplying additional masks.

Think of the multiplier affect when all of that is taking place in America instead of china

lots of new jobs for Americans that will improve their lives instead of the chinese

 

[Mac-7]

So you want our government to allow Apple to treat American factory workers like slaves, and have them live in company barracks with suicide nets, and pay them peanuts like they can do in China?

Seems like a strawman...not a serious question.

So here is a non-serious answer...

I'd prefer that Apple made phones here and paid a UAW wage...and protected that wage through tarriffs if necessary.

That isn't going to happen either way.

An Apple iPhone 11 is $1,000. People are simply not going to pay $2,000, so that some Union fat-cat can sit at his desk sleeping. Not going to happen. Ever.

The iPhone 11, would simply end up being sold in the rest of the world, while Americans would end up using either older iPhones, or Android phones.

More than half of all iPhone sales are outside the US. More than half.

Apple is not going to move operations to the US, and lose half the market. Not going to happen.

So you want our government to allow Apple to treat American factory workers like slaves, and have them live in company barracks with suicide nets, and pay them peanuts like they can do in China?

Seems like a strawman...not a serious question.

So here is a non-serious answer...

I'd prefer that Apple made phones here and paid a UAW wage...and protected that wage through tarriffs if necessary.

That isn't going to happen either way.

An Apple iPhone 11 is $1,000. People are simply not going to pay $2,000, so that some Union fat-cat can sit at his desk sleeping. Not going to happen. Ever.

The iPhone 11, would simply end up being sold in the rest of the world, while Americans would end up using either older iPhones, or Android phones.

More than half of all iPhone sales are outside the US. More than half.

Apple is not going to move operations to the US, and lose half the market. Not going to happen.

So you want our government to allow Apple to treat American factory workers like slaves, and have them live in company barracks with suicide nets, and pay them peanuts like they can do in China?

Seems like a strawman...not a serious question.

So here is a non-serious answer...

I'd prefer that Apple made phones here and paid a UAW wage...and protected that wage through tarriffs if necessary.

That isn't going to happen either way.

An Apple iPhone 11 is $1,000. People are simply not going to pay $2,000, so that some Union fat-cat can sit at his desk sleeping. Not going to happen. Ever.

The iPhone 11, would simply end up being sold in the rest of the world, while Americans would end up using either older iPhones, or Android phones.

More than half of all iPhone sales are outside the US. More than half.

Apple is not going to move operations to the US, and lose half the market. Not going to happen.

Apple sells so many iphones they could make them here and in china the same way foreign autos are built in America

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

So you want our government to allow Apple to treat American factory workers like slaves, and have them live in company barracks with suicide nets, and pay them peanuts like they can do in China?

Seems like a strawman...not a serious question.

So here is a non-serious answer...

I'd prefer that Apple made phones here and paid a UAW wage...and protected that wage through tarriffs if necessary.

I am being very serious.

Labor is by far the largest operating expense of any business. That is precisely why manufacturers move overseas. It has virtually nothing to do with taxes.

Cheap labor is precisely what gives them their edge.

So no, I am not kidding.

So lets remove taxes AND the largest operating expense AND American Workers.

-Jail all employers that knowingly hire illegal aliens.

-End all Republican worker visa programs.

-Base Federal tax for corporations at 30% of revenue.

-Raise minimum wage to $23.50/hr. Based on where minimum wage should be using 1970-2020 rise in food, shelter, and transportation.

-Eliminate all business subsidies (deductions/write-offs/write-downs) except for employee expenses which are deducted dollar-for-dollar on all city, state, and Federal taxes and fees with the Feds refunding city, State, and fees.

-Companies with unlimited employees; employee expenses above the deduction are subsidized at 100% with funds usually give back to the States.

-Adjust Social Security and private/public retirement and pension payments using 1970-2020 price structure.

-Remove the FICA limit.

-Back down ALL costs, prices, fees, to January 1, 2009 levels and hold them for 15 years which will eliminate inflation.

-Recall ALL off-shore investments tax free, and disallow any further off-shore investments.

-Make inversion illegal.

My plan would reduce business costs for employees and taxes to 30%. That's a 15%-30% drop.

My plan would put BILLIONS into the economy daily.

My plan would put the $100 trillion plus currently owned by corporate America back into the economy.

My plan would end all welfare.

My plan would significantly increase social security and pension payments.

Instant depression. Good job!

 

[Andylusion]

The OP doesn't realize there was a reason we wanted unions to become extinct.

Stagnant wages?

If I agree to mow your lawn for $30, do you pay me more money every single mow? Next year if I demanded $60, would you pay it?

Why do you think that simply existing, means you should be paid more?

You want to earn more money? Great. Me too. Here's how you do that... do work that has more value.

You learn a skill or trade, or be willing to work more hours, or something that increases your value.

Having a Union may increase your pay in the short term, but in the long run, you end up destroying your own jobs. The value of your work, does not increase, because the Union or Government said so.

That's why Chrysler and GM failed, and tens of thousands lost their jobs, and Honda and Toyota did not, and tens of thousands kept their jobs.

That's why Hostess under the Union went bankrupt, and Hostess as a non-union is now profitable.

The car companies failed because the execs made bad choices. They were making cars people didn’t want. The economy was much stronger with strong unions. Now we have weak growth and growing inequality.

False, by any measure. GM was still the number one car manufacturer, even during the worst part of the recession. How can you claim GM was making cars people didn't want, when GMs cars were consistently outselling all the competition?

Here is the reality. The average cost of Big auto union labor, is dramatically more expensive than the cost of labor at non-union shops. The result of that, is while they produce more cars that more people want, and dramatically out sell the competition, because the cost of labor is so high, they really don't produce much profit from it.

That lack of profit, resulted in bankruptcy.

The Unions bankrupted GM and Chrysler. Ford was only spared because Ford had already gotten concessions from the Auto Unions before the crash.

The war on unions has gotten us slow growth and growing inequality. That fight has been a loser for the country.

Any idea that unions created 'equality' is a myth. The rich have always been rich. And the poor have always been poor. There was never a time, where the rich lived like the middle class, because of Unions.

Further, even to this day, we live in the most wealthy country in the world. Two people working minimum wage at McDonald's, places them in the top 1% of wage earners in the world.

And lastly, while you can claim that mindless BS until the end of time... you can't back that with any real empirical evidence.

Tell all the Union people at Hostess who all lost their jobs, and were replaced with non-union people, that the Unions made their lives better.

Tell all the Union people at GM and Chrysler, who all lost their jobs, and were in many cases replaced with non-union people, that Unions made their lives better.

Tell all the Steel workers that lost their jobs, and many were replaced by non-union people, that the Unions made their lives better.

We had a steel mill here in Ohio reopen, after being closed from a Union strike years ago. Now it's opening non-union.

The people who claim the Unions did anything good, typically have to go back in time about 100 years, to point to any good thing the Union did.

Today, the Unions are only there to screw over the public, and screw over the tax payers, and screw over their own members.