You get what you pay for

[Mac1958]

There probably isn't a better example of how lazy, simplistic, binary partisan thinking retards progress, than health care.

Complete government control has problems, so let's toss out ALL government control.

Complete free market control has problems, so let's toss out ALL free market control.

Sad to watch. We used to be better than this.
.

 

[JoeB131]

There probably isn't a better example of how binary partisan thinking retards progress, than health care.

Complete government control has problems, so let's toss out all government control.

Complete free market control has problems, so let's toss out all free market control.

Sad to watch. We used to be better than this.

Again, rest of the world has single payer, it works just fine.

 

[Andylusion]

So now, even you are making the case for letting children die, while complaining about capitalism.

Fetuses aren't children... and there's only so much money you should spend trying to breathe life into a pile of medical waste.

See here's the difference, under may system where you pay for your own care, then you get what you are willing to pay for, or whatever charity is willing to help you with. There are plenty of charities that support medical care.

No poor child should have to rely on charity for basic health care.. The problem is, because of the greed of various profiteers, we spend twice as much per capita as other nations, and we have the worst health care metrics in the industrialized world.

Nothing even remotely “immoral” about your make believe bleeding heart story. You people have used that bullshit from the beginning of time in a pitiful attempt to justify your desire to steal and pillage what doesn’t belong to you.

When did the health of our children belong to the insurance companies? Sorry, man, we tried it your way... the insurance companies got rich and a lot of us got screwed. Single Payer. Deal with it.

So now, even you are making the case for letting children die, while complaining about capitalism.
Pretty easy to sit there, and tell other couples to let their kids die, because you decide their child isn't worth the money.

If I want to spend every single dollar I've earned in my life, to try and save my child, should I not have the right to do that?
But no, you are more interested in reducing our health care spending per capita, to match that of Europe, so you are going to leave children to die, like Europe.

No poor child should have to rely on charity for basic health care

Yeah, instead you let them die.
It is more moral for you to use charity, than it is force other people to pay for your care.
And quite frankly, charity routinely does a better job at helping people than anything government does. Have you been to the BMV? Have you been to the USPS? Maybe yours are different, but at both, it's like pulling teeth to get service. You really want health care run by the same people that have 7 registers, 3 employees working, and only 1 of the 3 is helping anyone, and there's a line out the door?

The problem is, because of the greed of various profiteers

Factually not true. I've explained the reasons we pay so much, and I can do so again. For one thing, all of the latest in medical innovation happens in the US, not in Europe. Europe is in effect, living off the medical advancements of the US.

When did the health of our children belong to the insurance companies?

Since I just listed a number of governments that let children die... You claim is misplaced.

That said, no one suggested it belonged to the insurance companies.
And it doesn't.

Work a job, and pay your bills. Because if you give your money to government, then you won't have any money to pay for medical bills AND they'll still let your kids die.

Better you have control, rather than government.

But if you still want that system, just remember this... the rich and wealthy get vastly better care than the public. This is true everywhere. In the UK, they have private hospitals only the rich can afford, and there is even a way to legally pay public hospitals to get 1st class service, while the rest of the country waits on multi-month, and sometimes even year long wait lists.

If you are fine suffering and dying while the rich get the best care.... your system is the way to achieve that.

In the US, you'll get the best care in the best time.... you'll just get an expensive bill. I can recover from a bill. I can't recover from death.

 

[Andylusion]

There probably isn't a better example of how binary partisan thinking retards progress, than health care.

Complete government control has problems, so let's toss out all government control.

Complete free market control has problems, so let's toss out all free market control.

Sad to watch. We used to be better than this.

Again, rest of the world has single payer, it works just fine.

Then why are they routinely coming to the US for care?

NI emergency care has 'fallen off a cliff'

Works just fine?

2016 junior doctor strikes in England had ‘significant impact’ on healthcare provision | BMJ Open

Works just fine?

https://www.thelocal.fr/20160926/frances-hospital-doctors-stage-week-long-strike

Works just fine?

Struggling to care: hospitals in crisis across Europe

Works just fine?

After 70 years, is the NHS at a crisis point? - CNN

Works just fine?

Need me to go on?

The dark side of Finland's famous free health care - CNN

Finland.

Swedes face problems with health care system

Sweden.

Ongoing recruitment crisis In Norwegian general practice

Norway. Shocking how this works. They pay doctors very little, so Norwegian doctors leave the country. Result is there is a country wide shortage of doctors. But if they increase pay, then all that bull crap about lower costs of health care you fawn over, goes with it.

Every single one of these systems has problems.

 

[JoeB131]

So now, even you are making the case for letting children die, while complaining about capitalism. Pretty easy to sit there, and tell other couples to let their kids die, because you decide their child isn't worth the money.

If I want to spend every single dollar I've earned in my life, to try and save my child, should I not have the right to do that?
But no, you are more interested in reducing our health care spending per capita, to match that of Europe, so you are going to leave children to die, like Europe.

I'm interested in making sure everyone gets covered.

So if you want to compare a kid like Charlie Gard, who was never, ever going to survive infancy, but still got pretty good treatment, to a Nataline Sarkisyan, who had a decent chance of recovery if Cigna hadn't denied her liver transplant AFTER taking her father's money.

Sorry, I'll take the system were everyone gets pretty good treatment to your treatment depends on your willingness to bankrupt yourself if the Insurance companies try to cheat you.

Then why are they routinely coming to the US for care?

They aren't. More Americans are going to Mexico than anyone else coming here for health care.

 

[JoeB131]

Since I just listed a number of governments that let children die... You claim is misplaced.

It's not misplaced at all...

You have a much higher chance of having a Dead Baby in the US than in any other industrialized country. We have the highest infant mortality rate in the industrialized world.

Every single one of these systems has problems.

Yes, they do.

We spend more than any other country.
We have the lowest life expectency in the industrialized world
We have the highest infant mortality rate in the industrialized world
62% of bankruptcies are linked to medical crisis.

I would take their problems over our problems any day of the week.

 

[Andylusion]

So now, even you are making the case for letting children die, while complaining about capitalism. Pretty easy to sit there, and tell other couples to let their kids die, because you decide their child isn't worth the money.

If I want to spend every single dollar I've earned in my life, to try and save my child, should I not have the right to do that?
But no, you are more interested in reducing our health care spending per capita, to match that of Europe, so you are going to leave children to die, like Europe.

I'm interested in making sure everyone gets covered.

So if you want to compare a kid like Charlie Gard, who was never, ever going to survive infancy, but still got pretty good treatment, to a Nataline Sarkisyan, who had a decent chance of recovery if Cigna hadn't denied her liver transplant AFTER taking her father's money.

Sorry, I'll take the system were everyone gets pretty good treatment to your treatment depends on your willingness to bankrupt yourself if the Insurance companies try to cheat you.

Then why are they routinely coming to the US for care?

They aren't. More Americans are going to Mexico than anyone else coming here for health care.

Again, there is a huge difference between going to another country because you find it cheaper, and going to another country because if you don't you'll die.

And they are coming to the US for care routinely. This is a documented fact, not up for debate. You have the right to be wrong, but that just makes you ignorant.

63,000 Canadians left the country for medical treatment last year: Fraser Institute

Crossing the border for health care | The NewsHouse

Canadians Come to America for Better Care

And unlike US citizens going to other countries because they can find a cheaper price... you can't attribute a single Canadian, coming to the US on finding a cheaper price.

They are often going from paying nothing, to paying a bill in the US. Why would someone be willing to pay money, for a service they theoretically get for free?

Because gov-care sucks. That's why.

 

[Andylusion]

Since I just listed a number of governments that let children die... You claim is misplaced.

It's not misplaced at all...

You have a much higher chance of having a Dead Baby in the US than in any other industrialized country. We have the highest infant mortality rate in the industrialized world.

Every single one of these systems has problems.

Yes, they do.

We spend more than any other country.
We have the lowest life expectency in the industrialized world
We have the highest infant mortality rate in the industrialized world
62% of bankruptcies are linked to medical crisis.

I would take their problems over our problems any day of the week.

Life expectancy has nothing to do with health care. If I get shot by a murderer, that isn't because our health care is bad. If I die in an accident on the way home, that isn't because health care was too much. If I hang myself, it's not because doctors were not waiting around the block, to cut the noose from around my neck.

Further, our infant mortality is not higher than Europe. It is a statistical lie.

Again, every single baby in the UK, that is born too early, is not even counted as being alive. Naturally your numbers of infant mortality will be lower, if you don't count the ones that die.

 

[JoeB131]

Again, there is a huge difference between going to another country because you find it cheaper, and going to another country because if you don't you'll die.

And they are coming to the US for care routinely. This is a documented fact, not up for debate. You have the right to be wrong, but that just makes you ignorant.

Well, except your own link says otherwise.

Since there is no readily available data on Canadians leaving the country for medical care,

The institute asked the specialists to approximate the percentage of their patients who received non-emergency treatment outside of Canada in the previous 12 months.

He noted that there is no real evidence to back up the message that Canadians are being forced into medical tourism simply due to wait times at home.

 

[JoeB131]

Life expectancy has nothing to do with health care. If I get shot by a murderer, that isn't because our health care is bad. If I die in an accident on the way home, that isn't because health care was too much. If I hang myself, it's not because doctors were not waiting around the block, to cut the noose from around my neck.

We don't have enough murders or suicides to really tweak the expectancy numbers... not that the fact that gun proliferation isn't a real problem... just not a statistically signifigant one in this context.

Further, our infant mortality is not higher than Europe. It is a statistical lie.

Again, every single baby in the UK, that is born too early, is not even counted as being alive. Naturally your numbers of infant mortality will be lower, if you don't count the ones that die.

Again, not enough to tweak the numbers... It's not just the UK, it's every industrialized nation beats us.

It's not just infants, it's child mortality rates.



We have more children up to the age of 5 dying than other industrialized nations.



We also have the highest rate of MATERNAL deaths.

 

[P@triot]

Sad to watch. We used to be better than this.

There is nothing worse than the asshat on the sidelines screaming about the performance of both teams.

Either add something of substance to the thread or shut the fuck up. Nobody cares what your views are on people.

 

[P@triot]

Fetuses aren't children... and there's only so much money you should spend trying to breathe life into a pile of medical waste.

Ladies & Gentlemen, I give you the true colors of the left. They view anyone who cannot serve the state as “a pile of medical waste” to be terminated in the name of cost/benefit analysis.

They publicly mock “Death Panels” but the very first comment out of the socialists mouth is how the government needs to decide that this life isn’t worth saving. The very definition of a “Death Panel”.

Keep in mind, when an insurance company deemed that his dumb ass was not worth the cost of a medical procedure (which wasn’t even a life-saving measure) he completely lost his shit and has spent the last 20 years pouting like an insolent child.

Which brings us back full circle to the left-wing ideology. Everything they claim to believe and support applies to everyone else only. It never applies to them. If a child needs a life-saving procedure, “fuck ‘em”. But if Joey has a ‘lil boo-boo on his knee, well holy hell everyone better get out of the way and spend whatever it takes to make his boo-boo feel better.

 

[P@triot]

The simple reality...

Socialists flaunt their compassion, argues former National Review Editor-in-Chief John O’Sullivan, because it gives them an excuse to impose their will on others “unlawfully and even murderously.”

That’s all small, insignificant little men like Joey and G-string have ever desired. Power over others.

The Totally, Utterly Irrefutable Case Against Socialism

 

[Dragonlady]

There is a reason U.S. is the best in the world.

American Health Care Costs a Lot, but Delivers Results

The USA has the highest rate of maternal death in childbirth in the first world.

The USA has the highest rate of infant mortality in the first world.

The USA is the only country in the first world with DECLINING longevity.

26,000 Americans die every year from lack of access to quality healthcare.

Americans keep telling themselves they have the BEST healthcare system in the world, but the numbers just don't support it. They have the most expensive healthcare in the world, but it is far, far from the best. There are pockets of excellence, but those places sell their healthcare to the world for profit and only the rich or the very well insured can afford the care. That's not a viable healthcare system for a nation.

 

[Mac1958]

Sad to watch. We used to be better than this.

There is nothing worse than the asshat on the sidelines screaming about the performance of both teams.

Either add something of substance to the thread or shut the fuck up. Nobody cares what your views are on people.

And yet my posts turn you people, on both ends, into drama queens.

If you don't like my posts, tough shit. Don't read them.
.

 

[JoeB131]

Ladies & Gentlemen, I give you the true colors of the left. They view anyone who cannot serve the state as “a pile of medical waste” to be terminated in the name of cost/benefit analysis.

They publicly mock “Death Panels” but the very first comment out of the socialists mouth is how the government needs to decide that this life isn’t worth saving. The very definition of a “Death Panel”.

Keep in mind, when an insurance company deemed that his dumb ass was not worth the cost of a medical procedure (which wasn’t even a life-saving measure) he completely lost his shit and has spent the last 20 years pouting like an insolent child.

The difference is I paid that insurance company a lot of money, and my doctor said that the procedure was required if I wanted to do stuff like WALK.

Which brings us back full circle to the left-wing ideology. Everything they claim to believe and support applies to everyone else only. It never applies to them. If a child needs a life-saving procedure, “fuck ‘em”. But if Joey has a ‘lil boo-boo on his knee, well holy hell everyone better get out of the way and spend whatever it takes to make his boo-boo feel better.

Except these procedures you scream about weren't "life saving". they were "Death delaying" Wow, we just spent hundreds of thousands of dollars keeping a miscarriage on life support for 11 months. This child was never going to grow up, all they were really doing was pandering to the parents inability to accept reality.

So, yeah- cost benefit analysis. Fixing Joe's knee meant that Joe keeps going to work, keeps producing an income for the next 20 years.

Keeping little Charlie Gard's corpse on life support for 20 years... well, not that he would have lasted 20 years... but exactly what's the benefit? Delaying the moment his parents have to deal with the inevitable?

The simple reality...
That’s all small, insignificant little men like Joey and G-string have ever desired. Power over others.

The Totally, Utterly Irrefutable Case Against Socialism

So when an insurance company decides that it is going to let Nataline Sarkisyan DIE rather than paying for a liver transplant that had at least a 50% chance of saving her life, AFTER taking her father's money, and then claiming her father had no standing to challenge it because their contract was with his employer, not him, how is that not cruelly having power over others?

Obviously, pointing out that the Socialized Medicine countries spend less and have better results than we do has no effect, so let's look at motives.

NHS's motive for cutting off Charlie Gard treatment was that his case had progressed so badly that he had no chance of recovery and they were only prolonging his suffering. Sorry, regardless of system, medical professionals make these calls all the time, which is why we have hospices and pallative care.

Charlie Gard case - Wikipedia

Cigna's motive in Nataline Sarkisyan's case was pure bottom line profit. It wasn't that she was untreatable, it was that Cigna realized it was easier to make a profit by denying treatment.

Death of Nataline Sarkisyan - Wikipedia

The fact is, Charlie Gard never would have gotten the level of care he got if Cigna was handling his case.

 

[Dragonlady]

Ladies & Gentlemen, I give you the true colors of the left. They view anyone who cannot serve the state as “a pile of medical waste” to be terminated in the name of cost/benefit analysis.

They publicly mock “Death Panels” but the very first comment out of the socialists mouth is how the government needs to decide that this life isn’t worth saving. The very definition of a “Death Panel”.

Keep in mind, when an insurance company deemed that his dumb ass was not worth the cost of a medical procedure (which wasn’t even a life-saving measure) he completely lost his shit and has spent the last 20 years pouting like an insolent child.

The difference is I paid that insurance company a lot of money, and my doctor said that the procedure was required if I wanted to do stuff like WALK.

Which brings us back full circle to the left-wing ideology. Everything they claim to believe and support applies to everyone else only. It never applies to them. If a child needs a life-saving procedure, “fuck ‘em”. But if Joey has a ‘lil boo-boo on his knee, well holy hell everyone better get out of the way and spend whatever it takes to make his boo-boo feel better.

Except these procedures you scream about weren't "life saving". they were "Death delaying" Wow, we just spent hundreds of thousands of dollars keeping a miscarriage on life support for 11 months. This child was never going to grow up, all they were really doing was pandering to the parents inability to accept reality.

So, yeah- cost benefit analysis. Fixing Joe's knee meant that Joe keeps going to work, keeps producing an income for the next 20 years.

Keeping little Charlie Gard's corpse on life support for 20 years... well, not that he would have lasted 20 years... but exactly what's the benefit? Delaying the moment his parents have to deal with the inevitable?

The simple reality...
That’s all small, insignificant little men like Joey and G-string have ever desired. Power over others.

The Totally, Utterly Irrefutable Case Against Socialism

So when an insurance company decides that it is going to let Nataline Sarkisyan DIE rather than paying for a liver transplant that had at least a 50% chance of saving her life, AFTER taking her father's money, and then claiming her father had no standing to challenge it because their contract was with his employer, not him, how is that not cruelly having power over others?

Obviously, pointing out that the Socialized Medicine countries spend less and have better results than we do has no effect, so let's look at motives.

NHS's motive for cutting off Charlie Gard treatment was that his case had progressed so badly that he had no chance of recovery and they were only prolonging his suffering. Sorry, regardless of system, medical professionals make these calls all the time, which is why we have hospices and pallative care.

Charlie Gard case - Wikipedia

Cigna's motive in Nataline Sarkisyan's case was pure bottom line profit. It wasn't that she was untreatable, it was that Cigna realized it was easier to make a profit by denying treatment.

Death of Nataline Sarkisyan - Wikipedia

The fact is, Charlie Gard never would have gotten the level of care he got if Cigna was handling his case.

If Charlie Gard has been born in the USA, he would have never received treatment. His parents couldn’t afford the co-pays.

 

[JoeB131]

If Charlie Gard has been born in the USA, he would have never received treatment. His parents couldn’t afford the co-pays.

Or they'd have mortgaged everything they owned. Then they'd watch him die when they couldn't pay anymore. It's only when the religious nutters hopped on board anyone cared.

 

[P@triot]

Americans keep telling themselves they have the BEST healthcare system in the world, but the numbers just don't support it.

Snowflake...people come from all over the world to the United States because we have the best healthcare in the world. And it’s not even close.

Billionaire don’t fly to Canada for your rationed healthcare, sweetie, because it’s a joke.

 

[P@triot]

Ladies & Gentlemen, I give you the true colors of the left. They view anyone who cannot serve the state as “a pile of medical waste” to be terminated in the name of cost/benefit analysis.

They publicly mock “Death Panels” but the very first comment out of the socialists mouth is how the government needs to decide that this life isn’t worth saving. The very definition of a “Death Panel”.

Keep in mind, when an insurance company deemed that his dumb ass was not worth the cost of a medical procedure (which wasn’t even a life-saving measure) he completely lost his shit and has spent the last 20 years pouting like an insolent child.

The difference is I paid that insurance company a lot of money, and my doctor said that the procedure was required if I wanted to do stuff like WALK.

And tax payers pay government a shit-ton of money. Do you realize what an asshole socialist you sound like now?

You pay an insurance company a pittance and you’re outraged at any denial. Tax payers pay government trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars and you applaud anyone denied life-saving healthcare.

You act like you walking is some big fucking deal, but scoff at literally life and death care.

Typical asshole socialist. Entire argument is completely nonsensical. Believes all of society should suffer and sacrifice for him. Believes all of his socialist rules should never apply to him. Typical asshole socialist.