2/3 say ditch individual health care mandate

[The Rabbi]

Pres Obama disagrees with you.
George and Obama debate health care taxes - YouTube

I don't care about political rhetoric. I care about legal realities.

OK.
The Federal Government lacks the Constitutional authority to lay such a tax. Article I Section 9

No capitation, or other direct, tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

The only exception is the income tax, which this is not.
QED. The individual mandate is unconstitutional. Since there was no severability clause in the law the rest of the law will be found unconstitutional as well.
Obamacare is dead.

Polk has left the building.

 

[Syphon]

Smartest thing you've said yet.

Putting aside the sarcasm......there are some potentially good systems that would allow people to taylor their willingness to take risks (with their fortunes) that the market could satisfy.

My current HSA now has a balance that would probably handle a heart attack even if I didn't have insurance (average cost).

And we all get to chose....the American way.....

Most, including myself, won't go without. But it won't be forced on me.

What the market has not been allowed to do (but it is changing) is get health insurance to those who want it at prices they can afford.

Obamacare isn't necessary.

so your actually advocating for a system in which people are left to die because they are poor? great, the right finally shows their true colors.

$11,000 hospital bill from the emergency department
$11,000 hospital bill from the emergency department

Physical assessment by the emergency resident physician came quickly followed by an EKG, chest x-ray, CT scan of the chest (“they said I might have had a blood clot&#8221, and lab, specifically including cardiac enzymes. Mike said his only complaint was it took over five hours before he heard any news.
“Everything looks good,” said the resident. “Let me run all this past my attending and see if we can get you home.” Mike said by then his pain had been gone for hours and he relaxed by receiving the go.
When the resident returned, however, Mike said he knew something was wrong.
“Sorry Mike, but my attending thinks you need to stay for a chest pain evaluation, “ stated the resident with no hint of emotion. “Your first cardiac enzyme was normal, but he thinks you need another evaluation in six hours followed by a stress test, “ he continued.



hope your sitting on $11k if you have to go to the emergency room.

or you could just file bankruptcy
Medical Bills Cause Most Bankruptcies - NYTimes.com

or you could just be one of the 45,000 people who die due to lack of health insurance
Harvard study finds nearly 45,000 excess deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage | Physicians for a National Health Program

A study published online today estimates nearly 45,000 annual deaths are associated with lack of health insurance. That figure is about two and a half times higher than an estimate from the Institute of Medicine (IOM) in 2002.

but its ok, because those who cant afford health care are shit out of luck anyways.... let em all die right????

who provides you with that HSA and health insurance your company? how much is your actual out of pocket each month? non employer health insurance averages $300-400 a month for a healthy young adult.

O.K. This ranks with some of the more stupid things you've posted.

First, the right has never avoided this so there is no showing of true colors. Personal Responsibility means you get it lined up or you pay the consequences. End of discussion. Yes, I have 11K to pay for that and a lot more. But I buy insurance so I am not going to pay for it. I have a neighbor (a lib) who does not buy insurance and pretty much knows he can screw the system so he spends it on a boat.

Next, unless things have changed, most of those so called medical bankruptcies are for amounts less than 12,000. That is the cost of a good used car. But people figure that they don't have to pay it so they wiggle out of it. A 100K bill, I could understand (boy, I'll bet that insurance looks a whole lot better than the boat when that happens....what about that woman from Ohio who took family vacations and then griped when she could not afford chemo because she could not afford insurance.....???? There is a sucker born every minute). If you want to let people get out from under such small medical bills, be my guest.

Finally, I got a copy of the Harvard Study and wiped my ass with it. First, the assumptions are incredibly specious and the entire study came under fire when it came out. It is basically bogus. Second, start providing names. You figure the study was done a decade ago which means you have 500,000 people who have died since then. Surely you morons can produce some names. Whenever I challenge anyone to produce a list of 1000 names (out of 500K....can't be that hard), it does not happen. We shut this one down a long time ago, junior...try to keep up. And finally, from purely a statistical standpoint....45,000 against the number of people who likely die in this country each year almost becomes statistical noise. That you would quote the study shows you are still using fifth grade books (and BTW: you whined about my posting parts of Federalist Papers...you never posted one sorry assed piece of 10 and stood behind it so STFU....but I digress).

Yes, you populist lefties are so easy to trash.

You got creamed again Junior.

This is fun.

so youre apparently smarter than researchers at Harvard now........
best statement youve ever made..

you really think a study is gonna release personal information??? ok you release all your personal information to the public then. dumbshit

your a bigger idiot than you even realize..
hows it feel to get pwned over and over again? speaking of getting creamed.... you have a little something left on your chin....

 

[Wry Catcher]

So, let's suppose Romney is elected and with the magic of his pen repeals "Obamacare". Under which provision of the Constitution does Romney have such authority?

Next, what's next? Will Romney deregulate the health care industry? What will those with a previous condition do if they lose their job because of a chronic disease and can't afford to pay cobra premiums?

No doubt they will go to the local county/public hospital and lose everything they worked for as medical bills and interest on those bills grows and grows.

And what of preventative care? Will prevention be ignored as too costly for many Americans, and what then? Ignoring symptoms and regular check ups when early detection has a clear cost-benefit?

I don't expect any answers, callous conservatives don't really care about others, it's all about personal responsibility. Simple answer to complex issues is so simple.

 

[Jarhead]

So, let's suppose Romney is elected and with the magic of his pen repeals "Obamacare". Under which provision of the Constitution does Romney have such authority?

Next, what's next? Will Romney deregulate the health care industry? What will those with a previous condition do if they lose their job because of a chronic disease and can't afford to pay cobra premiums?

No doubt they will go to the local county/public hospital and lose everything they worked for as medical bills and interest on those bills grows and grows.

And what of preventative care? Will prevention be ignored as too costly for many Americans, and what then? Ignoring symptoms and regular check ups when early detection has a clear cost-benefit?

I don't expect any answers, callous conservatives don't really care about others, it's all about personal responsibility. Simple answer to complex issues is so simple.

why dont yoiu expand the questioning?

What if that individual DOES lose his job due to a chronic condition and cant afford to keep up with his mortgage payments?

Or cant pay to feed his family?

Or cant pay to clothe his family?

You see....you all want to make it about healthcare....but it isnt. It is about people doing what they need to do to prepare for the worst case scenario.

So lets say healthcare continues as Obama wants...

The man gets medical care....but loses his house.

Should we also have the tax payer pay his mortgage?

Clothe his family?

Sorry bud...it is not that we are callous.....it is that we are realists.

If people prepared for the worst, they will survive through the worst.

I did not buy my first house until I had 2 years worth of mortgage payements saved up.....

How did I do it on my small income at the time? My wife and I lived in a small basement studio apartment...did without a car...and I held down a night job along with my day venture....

Likewise, I did not buy anything but necessities for the first few years I LIVED in my first house...so I can save up even more.

Now, I was lucky...I did not get sick...I did not lose my company.....so with all I kept putting away, I was ablue to retire at the age of 54.

You think about what people can do FOR themselves.....but arent willing to

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

So, let's suppose Romney is elected and with the magic of his pen repeals "Obamacare". Under which provision of the Constitution does Romney have such authority?

Next, what's next? Will Romney deregulate the health care industry? What will those with a previous condition do if they lose their job because of a chronic disease and can't afford to pay cobra premiums?

No doubt they will go to the local county/public hospital and lose everything they worked for as medical bills and interest on those bills grows and grows.

And what of preventative care? Will prevention be ignored as too costly for many Americans, and what then? Ignoring symptoms and regular check ups when early detection has a clear cost-benefit?

I don't expect any answers, callous conservatives don't really care about others, it's all about personal responsibility. Simple answer to complex issues is so simple.

The same authority that allowed obama to put a morotorium on drilling........


Romney hasn't said what is next yet. Since you are making assumptions I will too. I assume he will pas some small, targeted bills, aimed at helping extend coverage at costs lower income people can afford while NOT overstepping the limits placed on the federal govt by the constitution, like the Affordable Care Act does.

I doubt it, sounds like a bunch of hyperbole from you there

People already did preventive care before obama was president, while obama is president, and will do so after obama is gone......we don't need Obamacare to have people practice preventative medicine.

 

[Syphon]

So, let's suppose Romney is elected and with the magic of his pen repeals "Obamacare". Under which provision of the Constitution does Romney have such authority?

Next, what's next? Will Romney deregulate the health care industry? What will those with a previous condition do if they lose their job because of a chronic disease and can't afford to pay cobra premiums?

No doubt they will go to the local county/public hospital and lose everything they worked for as medical bills and interest on those bills grows and grows.

And what of preventative care? Will prevention be ignored as too costly for many Americans, and what then? Ignoring symptoms and regular check ups when early detection has a clear cost-benefit?

I don't expect any answers, callous conservatives don't really care about others, it's all about personal responsibility. Simple answer to complex issues is so simple.

why dont yoiu expand the questioning?

What if that individual DOES lose his job due to a chronic condition and cant afford to keep up with his mortgage payments?

Or cant pay to feed his family?

Or cant pay to clothe his family?

You see....you all want to make it about healthcare....but it isnt. It is about people doing what they need to do to prepare for the worst case scenario.

So lets say healthcare continues as Obama wants...

The man gets medical care....but loses his house.

Should we also have the tax payer pay his mortgage?

Clothe his family?

Sorry bud...it is not that we are callous.....it is that we are realists.

If people prepared for the worst, they will survive through the worst.

I did not buy my first house until I had 2 years worth of mortgage payements saved up.....

How did I do it on my small income at the time? My wife and I lived in a small basement studio apartment...did without a car...and I held down a night job along with my day venture....

Likewise, I did not buy anything but necessities for the first few years I LIVED in my first house...so I can save up even more.

Now, I was lucky...I did not get sick...I did not lose my company.....so with all I kept putting away, I was ablue to retire at the age of 54.

You think about what people can do FOR themselves.....but arent willing to

a man can live without a house, however a man can not live with a heart or lungs.

a man can grow food, but a man cant grow a health care tree

a man can make his own clothes, but a man cant make his own antibiotics

wanna try that argument again?

 

[Syphon]

So, let's suppose Romney is elected and with the magic of his pen repeals "Obamacare". Under which provision of the Constitution does Romney have such authority?

Next, what's next? Will Romney deregulate the health care industry? What will those with a previous condition do if they lose their job because of a chronic disease and can't afford to pay cobra premiums?

No doubt they will go to the local county/public hospital and lose everything they worked for as medical bills and interest on those bills grows and grows.

And what of preventative care? Will prevention be ignored as too costly for many Americans, and what then? Ignoring symptoms and regular check ups when early detection has a clear cost-benefit?

I don't expect any answers, callous conservatives don't really care about others, it's all about personal responsibility. Simple answer to complex issues is so simple.

The same authority that allowed obama to put a morotorium on drilling........


Romney hasn't said what is next yet. Since you are making assumptions I will too. I assume he will pas some small, targeted bills, aimed at helping extend coverage at costs lower income people can afford while NOT overstepping the limits placed on the federal govt by the constitution, like the Affordable Care Act does.

I doubt it, sounds like a bunch of hyperbole from you there

People already did preventive care before obama was president, while obama is president, and will do so after obama is gone......we don't need Obamacare to have people practice preventative medicine.

have you actually looked at the GOP plan on GOP.gov? its a rehash of the health care law sans the mandate.

so what exactly is wrong with the health care law again that needs requires it to be fully repealed?

if people did proper preventative care, we wouldnt have an obesity problem in this country

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

So, let's suppose Romney is elected and with the magic of his pen repeals "Obamacare". Under which provision of the Constitution does Romney have such authority?

Next, what's next? Will Romney deregulate the health care industry? What will those with a previous condition do if they lose their job because of a chronic disease and can't afford to pay cobra premiums?

No doubt they will go to the local county/public hospital and lose everything they worked for as medical bills and interest on those bills grows and grows.

And what of preventative care? Will prevention be ignored as too costly for many Americans, and what then? Ignoring symptoms and regular check ups when early detection has a clear cost-benefit?

I don't expect any answers, callous conservatives don't really care about others, it's all about personal responsibility. Simple answer to complex issues is so simple.

The same authority that allowed obama to put a morotorium on drilling........


Romney hasn't said what is next yet. Since you are making assumptions I will too. I assume he will pas some small, targeted bills, aimed at helping extend coverage at costs lower income people can afford while NOT overstepping the limits placed on the federal govt by the constitution, like the Affordable Care Act does.

I doubt it, sounds like a bunch of hyperbole from you there

People already did preventive care before obama was president, while obama is president, and will do so after obama is gone......we don't need Obamacare to have people practice preventative medicine.

have you actually looked at the GOP plan on GOP.gov? its a rehash of the health care law sans the mandate.

so what exactly is wrong with the health care law again that needs requires it to be fully repealed?

if people did proper preventative care, we wouldnt have an obesity problem in this country

you really think Romney is Mr. GOP? You don't know romney if you think he is Mr GOP or a shill for the republican party. I do know romney a bit...he was my gov, i voted for him before....you are off base with worrying about the GOP plan under romney.

See my sig line for more details on that

 

[Jarhead]

So, let's suppose Romney is elected and with the magic of his pen repeals "Obamacare". Under which provision of the Constitution does Romney have such authority?

Next, what's next? Will Romney deregulate the health care industry? What will those with a previous condition do if they lose their job because of a chronic disease and can't afford to pay cobra premiums?

No doubt they will go to the local county/public hospital and lose everything they worked for as medical bills and interest on those bills grows and grows.

And what of preventative care? Will prevention be ignored as too costly for many Americans, and what then? Ignoring symptoms and regular check ups when early detection has a clear cost-benefit?

I don't expect any answers, callous conservatives don't really care about others, it's all about personal responsibility. Simple answer to complex issues is so simple.

why dont yoiu expand the questioning?

What if that individual DOES lose his job due to a chronic condition and cant afford to keep up with his mortgage payments?

Or cant pay to feed his family?

Or cant pay to clothe his family?

You see....you all want to make it about healthcare....but it isnt. It is about people doing what they need to do to prepare for the worst case scenario.

So lets say healthcare continues as Obama wants...

The man gets medical care....but loses his house.

Should we also have the tax payer pay his mortgage?

Clothe his family?

Sorry bud...it is not that we are callous.....it is that we are realists.

If people prepared for the worst, they will survive through the worst.

I did not buy my first house until I had 2 years worth of mortgage payements saved up.....

How did I do it on my small income at the time? My wife and I lived in a small basement studio apartment...did without a car...and I held down a night job along with my day venture....

Likewise, I did not buy anything but necessities for the first few years I LIVED in my first house...so I can save up even more.

Now, I was lucky...I did not get sick...I did not lose my company.....so with all I kept putting away, I was ablue to retire at the age of 54.

You think about what people can do FOR themselves.....but arent willing to

a man can live without a house, however a man can not live with a heart or lungs.

a man can grow food, but a man cant grow a health care tree

a man can make his own clothes, but a man cant make his own antibiotics

wanna try that argument again?

A man can purchase health insurance....thats what it is there for.
If it means he cant have 2 cars, or a 3 bedroom home, or a 3 bedroom apartment for the first few years of his adult life, so be it.

But the man can purchase health insurance.

I did....and I was bagging groceries at a local supermarket in addition to starting my own company..and my wife working....and handling my administrative work for my venture at night while I was bagging groceries....

I did without a car...livbed in a basement apartment...my TV was a black and White Zenith form the 60's....and I used every dam coupon we could find for food.

I did what I had to do.

As for your piss ass argument.....you seemed to have left out the part where the guy can buy health insurance.

 

[Syphon]

The same authority that allowed obama to put a morotorium on drilling........


Romney hasn't said what is next yet. Since you are making assumptions I will too. I assume he will pas some small, targeted bills, aimed at helping extend coverage at costs lower income people can afford while NOT overstepping the limits placed on the federal govt by the constitution, like the Affordable Care Act does.

I doubt it, sounds like a bunch of hyperbole from you there

People already did preventive care before obama was president, while obama is president, and will do so after obama is gone......we don't need Obamacare to have people practice preventative medicine.

have you actually looked at the GOP plan on GOP.gov? its a rehash of the health care law sans the mandate.

so what exactly is wrong with the health care law again that needs requires it to be fully repealed?

if people did proper preventative care, we wouldnt have an obesity problem in this country

you really think Romney is Mr. GOP? You don't know romney if you think he is Mr GOP or a shill for the republican party. I do know romney a bit...he was my gov, i voted for him before....you are off base with worrying about the GOP plan under romney.

See my sig line for more details on that

Romeny is a self professed republican. he is even letting the GOP primary pull him farther and farther to the right in order to pander to the religious right and TP voters. if Romney ran as independent, id be more inclined to agree with you, but since he is actively campaigning to represent the GOP that makes him a republican....

 

[Wry Catcher]

So, let's suppose Romney is elected and with the magic of his pen repeals "Obamacare". Under which provision of the Constitution does Romney have such authority?

Next, what's next? Will Romney deregulate the health care industry? What will those with a previous condition do if they lose their job because of a chronic disease and can't afford to pay cobra premiums?

No doubt they will go to the local county/public hospital and lose everything they worked for as medical bills and interest on those bills grows and grows.

And what of preventative care? Will prevention be ignored as too costly for many Americans, and what then? Ignoring symptoms and regular check ups when early detection has a clear cost-benefit?

I don't expect any answers, callous conservatives don't really care about others, it's all about personal responsibility. Simple answer to complex issues is so simple.

why dont yoiu expand the questioning?

What if that individual DOES lose his job due to a chronic condition and cant afford to keep up with his mortgage payments?

Or cant pay to feed his family?

Or cant pay to clothe his family?

You see....you all want to make it about healthcare....but it isnt. It is about people doing what they need to do to prepare for the worst case scenario.

So lets say healthcare continues as Obama wants...

The man gets medical care....but loses his house.

Should we also have the tax payer pay his mortgage?

Clothe his family?

Sorry bud...it is not that we are callous.....it is that we are realists.

If people prepared for the worst, they will survive through the worst.

I did not buy my first house until I had 2 years worth of mortgage payements saved up.....

How did I do it on my small income at the time? My wife and I lived in a small basement studio apartment...did without a car...and I held down a night job along with my day venture....

Likewise, I did not buy anything but necessities for the first few years I LIVED in my first house...so I can save up even more.

Now, I was lucky...I did not get sick...I did not lose my company.....so with all I kept putting away, I was ablue to retire at the age of 54.

You think about what people can do FOR themselves.....but arent willing to

Thanks for sharing your 'logic':

Slippery slope

Definition: The arguer claims that a sort of chain reaction, usually ending in some dire consequence, will take place, but there's really not enough evidence for that assumption. The arguer asserts that if we take even one step onto the "slippery slope," we will end up sliding all the way to the bottom; he or she assumes we can't stop partway down the hill.

 

[uscitizen]

2/3 say ditch individual health care mandate

Yep and go to a single payor universal system.

 

[Jarhead]

So, let's suppose Romney is elected and with the magic of his pen repeals "Obamacare". Under which provision of the Constitution does Romney have such authority?

Next, what's next? Will Romney deregulate the health care industry? What will those with a previous condition do if they lose their job because of a chronic disease and can't afford to pay cobra premiums?

No doubt they will go to the local county/public hospital and lose everything they worked for as medical bills and interest on those bills grows and grows.

And what of preventative care? Will prevention be ignored as too costly for many Americans, and what then? Ignoring symptoms and regular check ups when early detection has a clear cost-benefit?

I don't expect any answers, callous conservatives don't really care about others, it's all about personal responsibility. Simple answer to complex issues is so simple.

why dont yoiu expand the questioning?

What if that individual DOES lose his job due to a chronic condition and cant afford to keep up with his mortgage payments?

Or cant pay to feed his family?

Or cant pay to clothe his family?

You see....you all want to make it about healthcare....but it isnt. It is about people doing what they need to do to prepare for the worst case scenario.

So lets say healthcare continues as Obama wants...

The man gets medical care....but loses his house.

Should we also have the tax payer pay his mortgage?

Clothe his family?

Sorry bud...it is not that we are callous.....it is that we are realists.

If people prepared for the worst, they will survive through the worst.

I did not buy my first house until I had 2 years worth of mortgage payements saved up.....

How did I do it on my small income at the time? My wife and I lived in a small basement studio apartment...did without a car...and I held down a night job along with my day venture....

Likewise, I did not buy anything but necessities for the first few years I LIVED in my first house...so I can save up even more.

Now, I was lucky...I did not get sick...I did not lose my company.....so with all I kept putting away, I was ablue to retire at the age of 54.

You think about what people can do FOR themselves.....but arent willing to

Thanks for sharing your 'logic':

Slippery slope

Definition: The arguer claims that a sort of chain reaction, usually ending in some dire consequence, will take place, but there's really not enough evidence for that assumption. The arguer asserts that if we take even one step onto the "slippery slope," we will end up sliding all the way to the bottom; he or she assumes we can't stop partway down the hill.

no evidence?

Are you not paying attention?

Evidence...

The Affordable Healthcare law has a mandate that any American who is breathing MUST either pourchase health insurance ORT havew health insurence purchased on ones behalf. This is a first in Amereican History...a government mandate that one MUST buy something even if one does not want to.

And yes...we cried "slippery slope" and folks like you ridiculed us.

So what comes out 2 years later?

For the first timeA NEW government mandate that says a business owner MUST OFFER a service even if that business owner does not want to....This is a first in American History

Yep....no longer a slippery slope.....the first mandate opened the door and government is grabbing

 

[Syphon]

why dont yoiu expand the questioning?

What if that individual DOES lose his job due to a chronic condition and cant afford to keep up with his mortgage payments?

Or cant pay to feed his family?

Or cant pay to clothe his family?

You see....you all want to make it about healthcare....but it isnt. It is about people doing what they need to do to prepare for the worst case scenario.

So lets say healthcare continues as Obama wants...

The man gets medical care....but loses his house.

Should we also have the tax payer pay his mortgage?

Clothe his family?

Sorry bud...it is not that we are callous.....it is that we are realists.

If people prepared for the worst, they will survive through the worst.

I did not buy my first house until I had 2 years worth of mortgage payements saved up.....

How did I do it on my small income at the time? My wife and I lived in a small basement studio apartment...did without a car...and I held down a night job along with my day venture....

Likewise, I did not buy anything but necessities for the first few years I LIVED in my first house...so I can save up even more.

Now, I was lucky...I did not get sick...I did not lose my company.....so with all I kept putting away, I was ablue to retire at the age of 54.

You think about what people can do FOR themselves.....but arent willing to

a man can live without a house, however a man can not live with a heart or lungs.

a man can grow food, but a man cant grow a health care tree

a man can make his own clothes, but a man cant make his own antibiotics

wanna try that argument again?

A man can purchase health insurance....thats what it is there for.
If it means he cant have 2 cars, or a 3 bedroom home, or a 3 bedroom apartment for the first few years of his adult life, so be it.

But the man can purchase health insurance.

I did....and I was bagging groceries at a local supermarket in addition to starting my own company..and my wife working....and handling my administrative work for my venture at night while I was bagging groceries....

I did without a car...livbed in a basement apartment...my TV was a black and White Zenith form the 60's....and I used every dam coupon we could find for food.

I did what I had to do.

As for your piss ass argument.....you seemed to have left out the part where the guy can buy health insurance.

your argument assumes that everyone without health insurance has the means to do so.

how do you suggest a man making $45,000 supporting a family of 4 come up with $1000 a month to pay for insurance for his family?
Average family health insurance policy: $13,375, up 5% - USATODAY.com

lets assume hes in the 15% tax bracket for arguments sake, that means he takes home $3,187 per month.

Mortgage / Rent - $1200
Food - $1000
Utilities - $100

hmmmm without any retirement, gas, car, insurance, clothes or anything else that means he has $887 left to spend each month. you wanna take the majority of what he has left to provide for his family and put it into health insurance.

 

[deaddogseye]

Hope our politicians and the supreme court are listening:
"
Two-thirds of Americans say the U.S. Supreme Court should throw out either the individual mandate in the federal health care law or the law in its entirety, signaling the depth of public disagreement with that element of the Affordable Care Act.
This ABC News/Washington Post poll finds that Americans oppose the law overall by 52-41 percent. And 67 percent believe the high court should either ditch the law or at least the portion that requires nearly all Americans to have coverage."

The people never wanted it. This is a travesty like the abortion *law*. Nobody ever wanted it in the first place.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...ches-two-thirds-say-ditch-individual-mandate/

Which brings up the age-old question as to how susceptible the Supreme Court is to this kind of pressure....

The Supreme court isn't supposed to be susceptible to pressure from anywhere. They need to strictly adhere to the constitution and if they do that, they'll strike the health care reform down. The Obama administration is stretching the commerce clause to force people to purchase something from a third party against our will. We are protected from that. Once the individual mandate is declared unconstitutional, the rest of the bill goes away. It's an all or nothing deal.

They are not supposed to be but I think often they are. Of course this depends in part of the individuals comprising the court at a given point in time. But i think there is little question the Supreme Court (or more precisely stated, certain members of it) factors in just how much the public will tolerate in some of their more sensitive decisions.

this of course brings up the whole problem with the judiciary making law - and dont get me wrong, sometimes it is unavaoidable. It is completely undemocratic for as few a 5 out of touch unelected old priveleged people who are accountable to no one to be making these decisions -regardless of whether you happen to love or hate what they are doing at the given moment. There is a very substantial argument that this particular issue (the individual mandate) should be left to the political process because although it is couched as a constitutional issue it may well be perceived by some of them as less fundamentally so than say something involving restrictions on pure political speech for example. Certailny this will be the first issue the court considers and the answer to that will determine if they even get to the commerce clause issue.

Just remember if 5 old out of touch unelected and unacountable old geezers can give you something you really like, the next 5 can take it away and there is almost nothing you can do about it.

Is that any way to run a Democracy? The problem is what is the alternative?

 

[Syphon]

why dont yoiu expand the questioning?

What if that individual DOES lose his job due to a chronic condition and cant afford to keep up with his mortgage payments?

Or cant pay to feed his family?

Or cant pay to clothe his family?

You see....you all want to make it about healthcare....but it isnt. It is about people doing what they need to do to prepare for the worst case scenario.

So lets say healthcare continues as Obama wants...

The man gets medical care....but loses his house.

Should we also have the tax payer pay his mortgage?

Clothe his family?

Sorry bud...it is not that we are callous.....it is that we are realists.

If people prepared for the worst, they will survive through the worst.

I did not buy my first house until I had 2 years worth of mortgage payements saved up.....

How did I do it on my small income at the time? My wife and I lived in a small basement studio apartment...did without a car...and I held down a night job along with my day venture....

Likewise, I did not buy anything but necessities for the first few years I LIVED in my first house...so I can save up even more.

Now, I was lucky...I did not get sick...I did not lose my company.....so with all I kept putting away, I was ablue to retire at the age of 54.

You think about what people can do FOR themselves.....but arent willing to

Thanks for sharing your 'logic':

Slippery slope

Definition: The arguer claims that a sort of chain reaction, usually ending in some dire consequence, will take place, but there's really not enough evidence for that assumption. The arguer asserts that if we take even one step onto the "slippery slope," we will end up sliding all the way to the bottom; he or she assumes we can't stop partway down the hill.

no evidence?

Are you not paying attention?

Evidence...

The Affordable Healthcare law has a mandate that any American who is breathing MUST either pourchase health insurance ORT havew health insurence purchased on ones behalf. This is a first in Amereican History...a government mandate that one MUST buy something even if one does not want to.

And yes...we cried "slippery slope" and folks like you ridiculed us.

So what comes out 2 years later?

For the first timeA NEW government mandate that says a business owner MUST OFFER a service even if that business owner does not want to....This is a first in American History

Yep....no longer a slippery slope.....the first mandate opened the door and government is grabbing

so you really believe that people do not want health care?

can you back that statement up?

 

[Jarhead]

Thanks for sharing your 'logic':

Slippery slope

Definition: The arguer claims that a sort of chain reaction, usually ending in some dire consequence, will take place, but there's really not enough evidence for that assumption. The arguer asserts that if we take even one step onto the "slippery slope," we will end up sliding all the way to the bottom; he or she assumes we can't stop partway down the hill.

no evidence?

Are you not paying attention?

Evidence...

The Affordable Healthcare law has a mandate that any American who is breathing MUST either pourchase health insurance ORT havew health insurence purchased on ones behalf. This is a first in Amereican History...a government mandate that one MUST buy something even if one does not want to.

And yes...we cried "slippery slope" and folks like you ridiculed us.

So what comes out 2 years later?

For the first timeA NEW government mandate that says a business owner MUST OFFER a service even if that business owner does not want to....This is a first in American History

Yep....no longer a slippery slope.....the first mandate opened the door and government is grabbing

so you really believe that people do not want health care?

can you back that statement up?

Really?

Are you new to the entire healthcare debate?

If I had known this, I wouldnt have even responded to you to begin with.

How can you attempt to debate a topic you are poorly infiormed about?

 

[Wry Catcher]

So, let's suppose Romney is elected and with the magic of his pen repeals "Obamacare". Under which provision of the Constitution does Romney have such authority?

Next, what's next? Will Romney deregulate the health care industry? What will those with a previous condition do if they lose their job because of a chronic disease and can't afford to pay cobra premiums?

No doubt they will go to the local county/public hospital and lose everything they worked for as medical bills and interest on those bills grows and grows.

And what of preventative care? Will prevention be ignored as too costly for many Americans, and what then? Ignoring symptoms and regular check ups when early detection has a clear cost-benefit?

I don't expect any answers, callous conservatives don't really care about others, it's all about personal responsibility. Simple answer to complex issues is so simple.

The same authority that allowed Obama to put a morotorium on drilling........
Apples and Oranges. Do I need to explain the difference between the two?


Romney hasn't said what is next yet. Since you are making assumptions I will too. I assume he will pas some small, targeted bills, aimed at helping extend coverage at costs lower income people can afford while NOT overstepping the limits placed on the federal govt by the constitution, like the Affordable Care Act does.

You're ignoring the fact that the cost of health care increased enormously during the past three decades.

I doubt it, sounds like a bunch of hyperbole from you there

Look at the local budget of any county (parish) in the US, and see which part is the most costly.

People already did preventive care before Obama was president, while Obama is president, and will do so after Obama is gone......we don't need Obamacare to have people practice preventative medicine.

Wrong again. People who can't afford or don't buy insurance, or lose their coverage ignore symptoms and regular check ups. Then, when the inevitable happens the cost skyrockets

If Romney is elected I suspect he will do nothing about "Obamacare". Not simply because he can't, but because in his heart he knows it's the right thing to do.

 

[Jarhead]

a man can live without a house, however a man can not live with a heart or lungs.

a man can grow food, but a man cant grow a health care tree

a man can make his own clothes, but a man cant make his own antibiotics

wanna try that argument again?

A man can purchase health insurance....thats what it is there for.
If it means he cant have 2 cars, or a 3 bedroom home, or a 3 bedroom apartment for the first few years of his adult life, so be it.

But the man can purchase health insurance.

I did....and I was bagging groceries at a local supermarket in addition to starting my own company..and my wife working....and handling my administrative work for my venture at night while I was bagging groceries....

I did without a car...livbed in a basement apartment...my TV was a black and White Zenith form the 60's....and I used every dam coupon we could find for food.

I did what I had to do.

As for your piss ass argument.....you seemed to have left out the part where the guy can buy health insurance.

your argument assumes that everyone without health insurance has the means to do so.

how do you suggest a man making $45,000 supporting a family of 4 come up with $1000 a month to pay for insurance for his family?
Average family health insurance policy: $13,375, up 5% - USATODAY.com

lets assume hes in the 15% tax bracket for arguments sake, that means he takes home $3,187 per month.

Mortgage / Rent - $1200
Food - $1000
Utilities - $100

hmmmm without any retirement, gas, car, insurance, clothes or anything else that means he has $887 left to spend each month. you wanna take the majority of what he has left to provide for his family and put it into health insurance.

it seems the point I made went completely over your head.

You cite a guy with a 45K salary with 4 kids, a 1200 rent/mortgage, a car, etc.

at 25 years old, I started my own company...with no money... a service company...
My fiance at the time ands I took a small studio apartrment at a cost of 300 a month...We did not have a car...and we did not even talk about children...

I worked nights to supplement my income.....my wife worked days..and at nights she handled my administrative stuff for my new venture so I can go bag groceries.

We did not buy a TV.

Our entertainment was walks along the beach....our nights out were drinks with friends at friends homes or ours. We struggled...not to survivie....we struggled so we can have down the road.

We did not buy our first home until we had 2 years of mortgage payments saved up.
We3 did not buy a car until we had 6 months of car payments saved up.

We did not have children until we were able to afford them.

In the meantime, my healthcvare costs (insurance) was a monthly cost incorporated into my lifesatyle...it was like rent..and food...and clothes....

And when I started to make more?

We had kids.

Bought a TV

Bought a car....


It is not rocket science.

 

[Jarhead]

a man can live without a house, however a man can not live with a heart or lungs.

a man can grow food, but a man cant grow a health care tree

a man can make his own clothes, but a man cant make his own antibiotics

wanna try that argument again?

A man can purchase health insurance....thats what it is there for.
If it means he cant have 2 cars, or a 3 bedroom home, or a 3 bedroom apartment for the first few years of his adult life, so be it.

But the man can purchase health insurance.

I did....and I was bagging groceries at a local supermarket in addition to starting my own company..and my wife working....and handling my administrative work for my venture at night while I was bagging groceries....

I did without a car...livbed in a basement apartment...my TV was a black and White Zenith form the 60's....and I used every dam coupon we could find for food.

I did what I had to do.

As for your piss ass argument.....you seemed to have left out the part where the guy can buy health insurance.

your argument assumes that everyone without health insurance has the means to do so.

how do you suggest a man making $45,000 supporting a family of 4 come up with $1000 a month to pay for insurance for his family?
Average family health insurance policy: $13,375, up 5% - USATODAY.com

lets assume hes in the 15% tax bracket for arguments sake, that means he takes home $3,187 per month.

Mortgage / Rent - $1200
Food - $1000
Utilities - $100

hmmmm without any retirement, gas, car, insurance, clothes or anything else that means he has $887 left to spend each month. you wanna take the majority of what he has left to provide for his family and put it into health insurance.

Paying for health insurance IS providing for his family.

Should a man have a family if he can not afford to feed them?

The answer is no.

Should a man have a family if he can not afford to keep them healthy?

The answer is no.

It is tryuly about personal responsibility. You ridicule that statement....but that is becuase you cant get a grasp of what it means...which is evident of ther "pity" you show for a man with 4 kids, a mortgage yet making only 45K a year with no health insurance.

He was not a very respoinsible person.

You pity the irresponsible and ridicule the responsible.

I find that pathetic thinking.