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The difference is that I understand both. What is actually neural, I call neural. What is spiritual, I call spiritual. I find no need to mix the two. But then those of us who are not a fan of "God did it" are not fans of "Neurology did it" either. Each NDE event stands on its own. Some are even made up, and it usually easy to spot the ones that are. Some can be explained by neurology, we agree there. Some travel beyond both being made up and neurology and into the spiritual realm.
You don't believe in the spiritual, so your thinking ends at neurology. And that's fine. As you have pointed out, humans are limited beings. You might consider that because we are not identical, limitations vary from person to person. It is good to recognize our own limitations, and it is equally good not to foist our own limitations onto others.
That is the weakest argument yet. Different (not contradictory) causes for similar events are not only possible, but slide into probable.And people are far more alike physiologically than they are different which is why contradictory causes for similar events are unlikely.
You didn't address the people who see things it is impossible for them to see unless they are literally out of their bodies. This happens quite often.So you were brain dead?
And out of body experiences are just a result of dissociation which can be caused by a variety of reasons. I've had one myself under anesthesia Anyone can envision a room from another angle simply by extrapolation.
There is more to the universe that we cannot perceive but that does not mean there is some other realm that routinely acts on this one. We can't perceive it because our own sensory system is lacking and because of that our minds cannot fill in the blanks. In fact we may not be able to ever understand large parts of our universe because we are simply incapable of the thought processes required.
The fact that we cannot explain everything leads us to try to fill in the gaps with other explanations. Gods and spirits are examples of those explanations
I don't see a need to invent causes for things we may not yet or ever understand.That is the weakest argument yet. Different (not contradictory) causes for similar events are not only possible, but slide into probable.
How often?You didn't address the people who see things it is impossible for them to see unless they are literally out of their bodies. This happens quite often.
Often enough that they can't be ignored. You should know how science works, a single counter example disproves a theory, and a single person reporting objects on the roof of the hospital, what people were sitting in what chairs in the next room, what doctors and nurses were writing on the board in surgery, etc. disproves the theory that there is no consciousness separate from the body.How often?
Only about 10-20% of people have ever reported NDEs and some of those people were actually in no danger of dying they just thought they were going to die.
Who is ignoring them?Often enough that they can't be ignored. You should know how science works, a single counter example disproves a theory, and a single person reporting objects on the roof of the hospital, what people were sitting in what chairs in the next room, what doctors and nurses were writing on the board in surgery, etc. disproves the theory that there is no consciousness separate from the body.
They can be very reliable because they report seeing things that are true but that there is no physical way for them to see. Like I've said, objects on the roof of the hospital, the right people in the right chairs in a waiting room, etc. These are objective things that I DO think you are ignoring. Think about it, no matter what happens to a patient's brain while they are being operated on, is there ANY way for them to see people and things in another room? Is there ANY way for them to see objects outside the building?Who is ignoring them?
They happen but like I said the entire thing can be explained medically there is no need to interject mysticism.
But the fact is the phenomenon cannot be properly studied under controlled conditions as it would be considered an ethically improper study since you'd be asking volunteers to agree to having their hearts stopped for an indeterminate length of time.
So we have the recall of people who have oxygen starved brains, who are experiencing severe physical trauma of some sort and are under the influence of drugs
How reliable can these statements really be?
You had a dream. Not the same as out of body. While you were under anesthesia, what songs did your physician sing? Did you watch your own blood pressure readings during the operation? What did the Dr. tell the nurse he had for lunch? Can everyone tell the dr. what songs he sang during their operation? Can disassociation make a blind woman identify blue?So you were brain dead?
And out of body experiences are just a result of dissociation which can be caused by a variety of reasons. I've had one myself under anesthesia Anyone can envision a room from another angle simply by extrapolation.
There is more to the universe that we cannot perceive but that does not mean there is some other realm that routinely acts on this one. We can't perceive it because our own sensory system is lacking and because of that our minds cannot fill in the blanks. In fact we may not be able to ever understand large parts of our universe because we are simply incapable of the thought processes required.
The fact that we cannot explain everything leads us to try to fill in the gaps with other explanations. Gods and spirits are examples of those explanations
They can be very reliable because they report seeing things that are true but that there is no physical way for them to see. Like I've said, objects on the roof of the hospital, the right people in the right chairs in a waiting room, etc. These are objective things that I DO think you are ignoring. Think about it, no matter what happens to a patient's brain while they are being operated on, is there ANY way for them to see people and things in another room? Is there ANY way for them to see objects outside the building?
Or are you claiming medical causes for them to be able to see things that are not even in the room at the time? Because I've never seen a doctor or researcher claim that.
No it was out of bodyYou had a dream. Not the same as out of body. While you were under anesthesia, what songs did your physician sing? Did you watch your own blood pressure readings during the operation? What did the Dr. tell the nurse he had for lunch? Can everyone tell the dr. what songs he sang during their operation? Can disassociation make a blind woman identify blue?
If you are correct everyone who has ever been operated on has an out of body experience due to dissociation. It should be extremely common. It is not.
A staunch atheist had a series of heart attacks and every time his heart stopped he found himself on the way to Hell. Off you go. Every time he cried out for the Jesus he didn't believe in 20 mins earlier, he went right back in his body. 3 times. He is a preacher today.
Medical can't tell you why it happens, only that it happens. God can tell you exactly why it happens:
Romans 10: 13
for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Joel 2:32
And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved;
Acts 2:21
And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
...
Okay, you see in your brain. How good is the brain at seeing what's going on in another room? Can it see remote objects when there is no discernable brain activity? As for people who see what's going on in other rooms, what is your medical rationale for them to be able to describe who was in that room, where they were sitting and what they were saying to each other? What is your medical rationale for someone being able to describe things that are on the roof of the hospital when they've never been up there?You don't see with your eyes. You know that right?
Vision happens in the brain.
And you're the only person I know making that claim right now since you provide no evidence. But I see no mystical reason why a person may think he sees a person in another room.
Could you see what the doctors and nurses were doing from a perspective that would have been impossible, given your position on the table?No it was out of body
I was looking down on the surgery table with me on it.
So don't think you can tell me what I experienced.
And Sorry I'm not buying that last story whatsoever
He might have had a life altering event and he interpreted it in his own way but there are no gods or devils necessary for that.
Okay, you see in your brain. How good is the brain at seeing what's going on in another room? Can it see remote objects when there is no discernable brain activity? As for people who see what's going on in other rooms, what is your medical rationale for them to be able to describe who was in that room, where they were sitting and what they were saying to each other? What is your medical rationale for someone being able to describe things that are on the roof of the hospital when they've never been up there?
Do you have a non-mystical reason why people have been able to do that? Not just "think" they saw a person in there, actually describe who was in there, where they were sitting and what they were saying to each other.
I already told you I saw the room and myself from above.Could you see what the doctors and nurses were doing from a perspective that would have been impossible, given your position on the table?
The nephilim weren't wiped out.. neither were the Canaanite.Why would you dismiss the only 8 humans left on earth? God wiped out Nephilim to save humanity. Nephilim were the offspring of the "sons of God and the daughters of man". They weren't human. They were nasty and had to go. We are the offspring of the sons of man and the daughters of man.
You accuse people here of being Christians.
You never claimed importance, you emit it by your haughty attitude of superiority in knowledge and wisdom.
I enjoy your company. It gives me the opportunity to spread the good news. What your god means for evil, mine turns into good.
Out of body experiences have been known to happen without any drugs at all.Drugs like ketamine are reported to induce OBE.
And there is nothing supernatural about them.Out of body experiences have been known to happen without any drugs at all.
Then you are arguing that out of body experiences are a natural state for the human body. Does that mean you believe that consciousness can exist outside of one's body?And there is nothing supernatural about them.
I've come close to it again while meditating for long periods
A friend of mine likes to use a deprivation tank to get to that state of mind
Obviously not natural because they are usually pretty rare fleeting and short-lived.Then you are arguing that out of body experiences are a natural state for the human body. Does that mean you believe that consciousness can exist outside of one's body?
