A bit more of your merciful god.

[Meriweather]

Do you really think I am that dimwitted?

Again, not the point. The point is that I can and do have relationships with people who are severely limited. So do many, many others. Relationships are not limited to equity. That has been my point from the beginning.

As far as your statement: Do you really think I am so dimwitted that it even crosses my mind that you are dimwitted at all, let alone "that dimwitted"?

 

[Meriweather]

I don't see wanting proof as a limitation it is in fact a very liberating thing to have.

Proof is limited to that which is physical. So, yes, wanting proof is limiting oneself to a physical world. However, I do agree that in the physical realm, proofs are liberating by the fact they can redirect us into facts.

 

[Blues Man]

Again, not the point. The point is that I can and do have relationships with people who are severely limited. So do many, many others. Relationships are not limited to equity. That has been my point from the beginning.

As far as your statement: Do you really think I am so dimwitted that it even crosses my mind that you are dimwitted at all, let alone "that dimwitted"?

And you bring more to those relationships than does a person who is severely mentally handicapped. Physical limitations can be more easily overcome because there isn't necessarily an intellectual impairment.

None of this means you can't love and care about a person. It's all about the contributions to the relationship. When one party has an immense advantage over the other the relationship is lopsided and I don't know about you but I don't find those relationships as fulfilling as one where both participants can contribute equally.

 

[Blues Man]

Proof is limited to that which is physical. So, yes, wanting proof is limiting oneself to a physical world. However, I do agree that in the physical realm, proofs are liberating by the fact they can redirect us into facts.

OK so now we're back to whether there is actually some other world out there that is purely spiritual

Back to dualism.

I do not adhere to concept separate disparate realities, or the body /spirit separation.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't know about you but I don't find those relationships as fulfilling as one where both participants can contribute equally.

We are different, but again it may be because you have not worked closely with people with disabilities. They have brought as much to my life as any other, and I sincerely hope I have brought a little into their lives. I am not their everything; they are not mine. Yet some moments are as meaningful as moments with my best friend and with my closest family. I am a better person due to the great contributions people with disabilities have made to my life.

You are selling yourself much too short if you hold the belief you would have nothing to contribute to God.

 

[Meriweather]

And you bring more to those relationships than does a person who is severely mentally handicapped.

I do not see it that way. I bring my experience with me, and they bring their experiences with them. It is incorrect to value my experiences as having greater value than their experiences, my personhood over their own. So many are the most beautiful of people. Some are more courageous than the average person.

 

[Meriweather]

I do not adhere to concept separate disparate realities, or the body /spirit separation.

Speaking of disparate, so are our positions on how we perceive reality. Kind of interesting that I see reality encompassing all/both. Body/spirit separation is no more than nail clipping or hair shedding is to the body.

 

[Blues Man]

We are different, but again it may be because you have not worked closely with people with disabilities. They have brought as much to my life as any other, and I sincerely hope I have brought a little into their lives. I am not their everything; they are not mine. Yet some moments are as meaningful as moments with my best friend and with my closest family. I am a better person due to the great contributions people with disabilities have made to my life.

You are selling yourself much too short if you hold the belief you would have nothing to contribute to God.

Not how I see it.

Humans have great potential but there is a limit to that potential. There are things that our brains are incapable of processing which puts a limit on our understanding.

This isn't pessimism it's physics. Our brains are made up of the same stuff as every other animal brain we just happen to have more of that stuff therefore more neural connectivity. This is the reason my dogs will never understand prime numbers and it is also the reason that there are other concepts that are necessary for describing things we can't understand which we cannot process.

And if I want to believe that a god made me and everything about me and knows everything there is to know about me and knows everything I ever will do or know and say in the future and is what is there I can offer that will improve that god's existence?

There sure as hell ain't much is there?

 

[Blues Man]

Speaking of disparate, so are our positions on how we perceive reality. Kind of interesting that I see reality encompassing all/both. Body/spirit separation is no more than nail clipping or hair shedding is to the body.

And yet you speak of the spirit as if it something separate from the body. When the body dies the spirit lives on. The soul is everlasting etc

If the spirit and body are inseparable there can be no soul that endures after the dissolution of the body into its constituent atoms because all those atoms working in concert is what defines both the body and the spirit. This especially applies to neurons since we cannot manufacture replacements for those cells.

So if the mind is an artifact of the function of the brain and the spirit is the mind or a function of the mind then both mind and spirit are a function of the body, specifically our neural tissue. When that neural tissue is no longer capable of its function the mind and spirit cease to exist.

 

[Meriweather]

what is there I can offer that will improve that god's existence?

Are you saying your physical brain is too limited to provide you with this knowledge? Simply because you do not know something doesn't mean that knowledge does not exist.

 

[Meriweather]

And yet you speak of the spirit as if it something separate from the body. When the body dies the spirit lives on. The soul is everlasting etc

If the spirit and body are inseparable there can be no soul that endures after the dissolution of the body into its constituent atoms because all those atoms working in concert is what defines both the body and the spirit. This especially applies to neurons since we cannot manufacture replacements for those cells.

So if the mind is an artifact of the function of the brain and the spirit is the mind or a function of the mind then both mind and spirit are a function of the body, specifically our neural tissue. When that neural tissue is no longer capable of its function the mind and spirit cease to exist.

Before his own near death experience, one neurosurgeon agreed with all you say, but not afterwards.

Spiritual beings with a physical body and all its neurology. For a time.

 

[Blues Man]

Before his own near death experience, one neurosurgeon agreed with all you say, but not afterwards.

Spiritual beings with a physical body and all its neurology. For a time.

Ah the old light and tunnel thing.

Near death experiences are a result of our neural cells being deprived of oxygen. The fact that so may NDEs have very similar effects is more a testament to the similarity of our bodies than it is some spirit world guiding the sensations.

So now you change your position that the spiritual part of our being is the same as hair and fingernails? Or is it only part of our bodies part of the time and the rest of the time it's something that exists separately?

Near-Death Experiences Explained by Science

Near-death experiences seem mystical, but science can explain some of these phenomena.

www.livescience.com

Altogether, scientific evidence suggests that all features of the near-death experience have some basis in normal brain function gone awry. Moreover, the very knowledge of the lore regarding near-death episodes might play a crucial role in experiencing them—a self-fulfilling prophecy

 

[Meriweather]

Ah the old light and tunnel thing.

If that is what you think he/all experience, no further discussion warranted.

 

[The Irish Ram]

REally?

So you think your god will offer a long time atheist who would never acknowledge any god the same gift of salvation as it would a devout and pious follower?

You bet.
“If a man has 100 sheep, but 1 of the sheep gets lost, he will leave the other 99 sheep on the hill. He will go to look for the lost sheep.

You are every bit as important to Him as the rest of us...

 

[The Irish Ram]

Ah the old light and tunnel thing.

Near death experiences are a result of our neural cells being deprived of oxygen. The fact that so may NDEs have very similar effects is more a testament to the similarity of our bodies than it is some spirit world guiding the sensations.

So now you change your position that the spiritual part of our being is the same as hair and fingernails? Or is it only part of our bodies part of the time and the rest of the time it's something that exists separately?

Near-Death Experiences Explained by Science

Near-death experiences seem mystical, but science can explain some of these phenomena.

www.livescience.com

Altogether, scientific evidence suggests that all features of the near-death experience have some basis in normal brain function gone awry. Moreover, the very knowledge of the lore regarding near-death episodes might play a crucial role in experiencing them—a self-fulfilling prophecy

That is incorrect. Near death experiences also happen to people with 0 brain activity. Scientific evidence can "suggest a possibility", which you took the liberty of changing into a medical fact in your second sentence. But, it is not. It is a guess.

The soul is eternal. That's what God says unequivocally. He doesn't suggest it.
“Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

Science changes. Jesus does not:
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and forever.

 

[The Irish Ram]

And If I don;t believe there is an eternal soul?

BTW I don't

Your belief in an eternal soul isn't necessary for our eternal souls to exist. Your belief does however determine where your eternal soul with spend eternity...

 

[Blues Man]

If that is what you think he/all experience, no further discussion warranted.

Everything that is expereinced in an NDE can be medically explained there is no need for mysticism

 

[Blues Man]

You bet.
“If a man has 100 sheep, but 1 of the sheep gets lost, he will leave the other 99 sheep on the hill. He will go to look for the lost sheep.

You are every bit as important to Him as the rest of us...

I'm not lost

And no shepherd will risk 99 sheep for the safety of one

 

[Blues Man]

That is incorrect. Near death experiences also happen to people with 0 brain activity. Scientific evidence can "suggest a possibility", which you took the liberty of changing into a medical fact in your second sentence. But, it is not. It is a guess.

The soul is eternal. That's what God says unequivocally. He doesn't suggest it.
“Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

Science changes. Jesus does not:
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and forever.

And how do you know this?

HAve you ever talked to a person with zero brain activity and they told you?

And no one has ever heard any god say the soul was eternal. What you have is a man telling you what he thinks a god said.

 

[Blues Man]

Your belief in an eternal soul isn't necessary for our eternal souls to exist. Your belief does however determine where your eternal soul with spend eternity...

Your belief that there is a soul does not mean souls exist.