A Conservative's view on waterboarding

[bigrebnc1775]

Yes, we've been reading your mea culpas over his death for a week now.

Are you calling the men and women of the FBI liars?

i'm pretty sure she's calling you a quisling

own it

YOU'RE DISMISSED.
Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden’s Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”

Surprised by the ease in which this FBI spokesman made such an astonishing statement, I asked, “How this was possible?” Tomb continued, “Bin Laden has not been formally charged in connection to 9/11.” I asked, “How does that work?” Tomb continued, “The FBI gathers evidence. Once evidence is gathered, it is turned over to the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice than decides whether it has enough evidence to present to a federal grand jury. In the case of the 1998 United States Embassies being bombed, Bin Laden has been formally indicted and charged by a grand jury. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connected Bin Laden to 9/11.”

FBI says, it has “No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11”

 

[del]

"the nickname of the al-Qaeda courier who ultimately led us to bin Laden — as well as a description of him as an important member of al-Qaeda, came from a detainee held in
another country, who we believe was not tortured."

He believes no "torture" was used, but he can't guarantee it.

CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News that waterboarding and other harsh interrogation techniques yielded some of the information that helped the U.S. find and kill Osama bin Laden.

Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.

CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid - World news - Death of bin Laden - msnbc.com

YOU CAN ALSO LISTEN TO HIM SAY IT WHEN ASKED THREE DIFFERENT WAY STARTING AT 8:00 INTO THE VIDEO.

Lets just give these liberal fools who live in complete denial the exact question from Williams, and the exact answer from Panetta who clearly confirmed that info that got the ball rolling was obtained through waterboarding.

Williams: Turned around the other way, are you denying that waterboarding was, IN PART, among the tactics used to EXTRACT THE INTELLIGENCE THAT LED TO THIS SUCCESSFUL MISSION?

Panetta: NO!, I think some of the detainees clearly were, you know, they used these enhanced interrogation teqniques against some of these detainees. But im also saying that, you know, the debate about whether---whether WE WOULD HAVE gotten the SAME INFORMATION through other approaches I think is always gonna be an open question.

So, waterboarding was used, it worked, and should always be a tool in the box that can be pulled to help protect american lives.......Anybody who thinks otherwise is a fucking idiot.

thanks, muhammed

good to know where you stand

 

[del]

Are you calling the men and women of the FBI liars?

i'm pretty sure she's calling you a quisling

own it

YOU'RE DISMISSED.
Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden’s Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”

Surprised by the ease in which this FBI spokesman made such an astonishing statement, I asked, “How this was possible?” Tomb continued, “Bin Laden has not been formally charged in connection to 9/11.” I asked, “How does that work?” Tomb continued, “The FBI gathers evidence. Once evidence is gathered, it is turned over to the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice than decides whether it has enough evidence to present to a federal grand jury. In the case of the 1998 United States Embassies being bombed, Bin Laden has been formally indicted and charged by a grand jury. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connected Bin Laden to 9/11.”

FBI says, it has “No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11”

look, i'm sure you're good at sculpting chess pieces out of your own feces, but the adults are trying to talk.

run along

 

[Valerie]

I have posted that link at least 2 dozen times where the CIA chief said some of the information was given because of waterboarding.

And others have posted contrary info. We do not know for sure...and will probably never know for sure. But what the heck....let's sell our souls anyways.

Can't beat a link that has a video with the actual words coming out of his mouth saying it, especially when he was asked three different ways

You've heard of rendition..............?

What is rendition?

Developed in the mid-1990s during the Clinton administration, the CIA's rendition program allowed the agency to capture high-value targets anywhere in the world and bring them to a third country for interrogation. Critics argue that rendition is "outsourcing torture"; suspects are believed to have been taken to countries including Egypt, Morocco, Syria and Jordan, which have all been accused by the U.S. State Department and human rights organizations of torture.

Michael Scheuer was one of the architects of the rendition program. He told FRONTLINE that it is a legal process: "First, we had to identify a person who was worth incarcerating," he explains. "Second, that person had to be in a country that was willing to help us arrest him. Third, that person had to be wanted in a third country in a legal process. Either a warrant had to be issued for him, or he had been tried in absentia. … It wasn't just reaching out and grabbing someone. Lord knows there are hundreds of Al Qaeda people we would have liked to take off the street, but we couldn't do it because we couldn't make them fit into the mold of acceptable operations."

One suspect believed to have been rendered is Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi, who ran Al Qaeda's Khalden training camp in Afghanistan and who was captured in Pakistan in late 2001. Al-Libi was the subject of a bitter dispute between the FBI, which wanted to interrogate him using its practiced methods designed to elicit information that would hold up in court, and the CIA, which wanted to get as much information out of him as quickly as possible. The battle reached the White House and the CIA was ultimately awarded custody of the suspect. Al-Libi was reportedly taken to Egypt.

Frequently Asked Questions | The Torture Question | FRONTLINE | PBS

9th Circuit throws out CIA torture lawsuit for national security reasons
The decision by a divided appeals court says the risk of state secrets being exposed outweighs the alleged victims' right to seek damages from a Boeing subsidiary they say aided in the renditions.

Cia Torture | 9th Circuit throws out CIA torture lawsuit for national security reasons - Los Angeles Times

 

[bigrebnc1775]

i'm pretty sure she's calling you a quisling

own it

YOU'RE DISMISSED.
Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden’s Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”

Surprised by the ease in which this FBI spokesman made such an astonishing statement, I asked, “How this was possible?” Tomb continued, “Bin Laden has not been formally charged in connection to 9/11.” I asked, “How does that work?” Tomb continued, “The FBI gathers evidence. Once evidence is gathered, it is turned over to the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice than decides whether it has enough evidence to present to a federal grand jury. In the case of the 1998 United States Embassies being bombed, Bin Laden has been formally indicted and charged by a grand jury. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connected Bin Laden to 9/11.”

FBI says, it has “No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11”

look, i'm sure you're good at sculpting chess pieces out of your own feces, but the adults are trying to talk.

run along

Can't take the heat get out of the Kitchen. The FBI said move along.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.

CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid - World news - Death of bin Laden - msnbc.com

YOU CAN ALSO LISTEN TO HIM SAY IT WHEN ASKED THREE DIFFERENT WAY STARTING AT 8:00 INTO THE VIDEO.

Lets just give these liberal fools who live in complete denial the exact question from Williams, and the exact answer from Panetta who clearly confirmed that info that got the ball rolling was obtained through waterboarding.

Williams: Turned around the other way, are you denying that waterboarding was, IN PART, among the tactics used to EXTRACT THE INTELLIGENCE THAT LED TO THIS SUCCESSFUL MISSION?

Panetta: NO!, I think some of the detainees clearly were, you know, they used these enhanced interrogation teqniques against some of these detainees. But im also saying that, you know, the debate about whether---whether WE WOULD HAVE gotten the SAME INFORMATION through other approaches I think is always gonna be an open question.

So, waterboarding was used, it worked, and should always be a tool in the box that can be pulled to help protect american lives.......Anybody who thinks otherwise is a fucking idiot.

thanks, muhammed

good to know where you stand

Yeah, I stand on the side of protecting my fellow americans.

I'm not sure whose side you stand on anymore.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

And others have posted contrary info. We do not know for sure...and will probably never know for sure. But what the heck....let's sell our souls anyways.

Can't beat a link that has a video with the actual words coming out of his mouth saying it, especially when he was asked three different ways

You've heard of rendition..............?

What is rendition?

Developed in the mid-1990s during the Clinton administration, the CIA's rendition program allowed the agency to capture high-value targets anywhere in the world and bring them to a third country for interrogation. Critics argue that rendition is "outsourcing torture"; suspects are believed to have been taken to countries including Egypt, Morocco, Syria and Jordan, which have all been accused by the U.S. State Department and human rights organizations of torture.

Michael Scheuer was one of the architects of the rendition program. He told FRONTLINE that it is a legal process: "First, we had to identify a person who was worth incarcerating," he explains. "Second, that person had to be in a country that was willing to help us arrest him. Third, that person had to be wanted in a third country in a legal process. Either a warrant had to be issued for him, or he had been tried in absentia. … It wasn't just reaching out and grabbing someone. Lord knows there are hundreds of Al Qaeda people we would have liked to take off the street, but we couldn't do it because we couldn't make them fit into the mold of acceptable operations."

One suspect believed to have been rendered is Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi, who ran Al Qaeda's Khalden training camp in Afghanistan and who was captured in Pakistan in late 2001. Al-Libi was the subject of a bitter dispute between the FBI, which wanted to interrogate him using its practiced methods designed to elicit information that would hold up in court, and the CIA, which wanted to get as much information out of him as quickly as possible. The battle reached the White House and the CIA was ultimately awarded custody of the suspect. Al-Libi was reportedly taken to Egypt.

Frequently Asked Questions | The Torture Question | FRONTLINE | PBS

9th Circuit throws out CIA torture lawsuit for national security reasons
The decision by a divided appeals court says the risk of state secrets being exposed outweighs the alleged victims' right to seek damages from a Boeing subsidiary they say aided in the renditions.

Cia Torture | 9th Circuit throws out CIA torture lawsuit for national security reasons - Los Angeles Times

So is Obamush going to be charged?
CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid
Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.

CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid - World news - Death of bin Laden - msnbc.com

 

[bodecea]

Remember that waterboarding works....Our guys in WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam sang like birds when waterboarded. The Japanese, North Koreans, and North Vietnamese got excellent intell from our guys that way.



....but it's NOT torture.

 

[bodecea]

Lets just give these liberal fools who live in complete denial the exact question from Williams, and the exact answer from Panetta who clearly confirmed that info that got the ball rolling was obtained through waterboarding.

Williams: Turned around the other way, are you denying that waterboarding was, IN PART, among the tactics used to EXTRACT THE INTELLIGENCE THAT LED TO THIS SUCCESSFUL MISSION?

Panetta: NO!, I think some of the detainees clearly were, you know, they used these enhanced interrogation teqniques against some of these detainees. But im also saying that, you know, the debate about whether---whether WE WOULD HAVE gotten the SAME INFORMATION through other approaches I think is always gonna be an open question.

So, waterboarding was used, it worked, and should always be a tool in the box that can be pulled to help protect american lives.......Anybody who thinks otherwise is a fucking idiot.

thanks, muhammed

good to know where you stand

Yeah, I stand on the side of protecting my fellow americans.

I'm not sure whose side you stand on anymore.

Like you stand on the side of the Police when they beat confessions out of suspects too.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Remember that waterboarding works....Our guys in WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam sang like birds when waterboarded. The Japanese, North Koreans, and North Vietnamese got excellent intell from our guys that way.



....but it's NOT torture.

You were a pilot, correct?

 

[Wicked Jester]

thanks, muhammed

good to know where you stand

Yeah, I stand on the side of protecting my fellow americans.

I'm not sure whose side you stand on anymore.

Like you stand on the side of the Police when they beat confessions out of suspects too.

What the fuck is your drunken ass babbling about now?

You were a pilot correct?

 

[Valerie]

Can't beat a link that has a video with the actual words coming out of his mouth saying it, especially when he was asked three different ways

You've heard of rendition..............?

9th Circuit throws out CIA torture lawsuit for national security reasons
The decision by a divided appeals court says the risk of state secrets being exposed outweighs the alleged victims' right to seek damages from a Boeing subsidiary they say aided in the renditions.

Cia Torture | 9th Circuit throws out CIA torture lawsuit for national security reasons - Los Angeles Times

So is Obamush going to be charged?
CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid
Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.

CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid - World news - Death of bin Laden - msnbc.com

Of course he said they used the info.....ALL INFO available to track OBL down. Still can not prove he would not have been tracked down without the torture info... And STILL does not change the stance of the OP that the end does not justify the means...


Torture is unreliable, since people will often say anything — invent desperate fictions or diversions — to stop the pain or fear. That doesn’t mean waterboarding will never yield valuable information. Feeding a detainee into an industrial shredder, as Saddam Hussein’s torturers sometimes did, might yield valuable information too. But some techniques are forbidden not because they never work, not because they aren’t deserved, but because our very right to call ourselves decent human beings depends in part on our not doing them.

 

[Cal]

First issue with that post: KSM wasn't waterboarded 183 times. The actual number was about 3.

Source?

Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times - FoxNews.com

So basically he was waterboarded 183 times in 5 sessions.. .. so much different!

 

[Valerie]

The question of whether torture led, in one way or another, to bin Laden, according to intelligence and administration sources, is not clearly provable.


Here's what we do know, at least according to current administration officials: They argue that torture played almost no role in getting to bin Laden. In fact, two of the most high-value detainees -- KSM and bin Laden chief operations man Abu Faraj al-Libi -- actually lied about the important courier when asked about him.

They were dismissive about his importance, and didn't identify him beyond the nickname the CIA already knew. The key here: The CIA already knew that the courier had been a KSM protégé.

"It was their lies that alerted us," said one senior administration official with knowledge of the operation. All in all, Mohammed had been waterboarded 183 times -- and he still lied. "The help that KSM provided was inadvertent," this source said. "He didn't know what we knew."

Indeed. The CIA knew he had something to protect. The next obvious question: How did the CIA get the info on the courier's importance? How did they know Mohammed and al-Libi were lying? Apparently from a less valued al Qaeda operative, who let it be known that the courier was actually a KSM protégé and close to al-Libi, too. Was he waterboarded? We do not know for sure, although one senior administration source said he was not waterboarded. But what other methods were used? How exactly was he treated?

Debate rages about role of torture - CNN.com

 

[bigrebnc1775]

You've heard of rendition..............?

So is Obamush going to be charged?
CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid
Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.

CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid - World news - Death of bin Laden - msnbc.com

Of course he said they used the info.....ALL INFO available to track OBL down. Still can not prove he would not have been tracked down without the torture info... And STILL does not change the stance of the OP that the end does not justify the means...


Torture is unreliable, since people will often say anything — invent desperate fictions or diversions — to stop the pain or fear. That doesn’t mean waterboarding will never yield valuable information. Feeding a detainee into an industrial shredder, as Saddam Hussein’s torturers sometimes did, might yield valuable information too. But some techniques are forbidden not because they never work, not because they aren’t deserved, but because our very right to call ourselves decent human beings depends in part on our not doing them.

CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.

 

[Valerie]

So is Obamush going to be charged?
CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid
Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.

CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid - World news - Death of bin Laden - msnbc.com

Of course he said they used the info.....ALL INFO available to track OBL down. Still can not prove he would not have been tracked down without the torture info... And STILL does not change the stance of the OP that the end does not justify the means...


Torture is unreliable, since people will often say anything — invent desperate fictions or diversions — to stop the pain or fear. That doesn’t mean waterboarding will never yield valuable information. Feeding a detainee into an industrial shredder, as Saddam Hussein’s torturers sometimes did, might yield valuable information too. But some techniques are forbidden not because they never work, not because they aren’t deserved, but because our very right to call ourselves decent human beings depends in part on our not doing them.

CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid Intelligence garnered from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him, CIA Chief Leon Panetta told NBC News on Tuesday.

The current CIA director, Leon Panetta, is much less definitive on the subject. He told NBC News, "I think some of the detainees clearly were, you know, they used these enhanced interrogation techniques against some of these detainees. But I'm also saying that, you know, the debate about whether we would have gotten the same information through other approaches I think is always going to be an open question."

 

[del]

Yeah, I stand on the side of protecting my fellow americans.

I'm not sure whose side you stand on anymore.

Like you stand on the side of the Police when they beat confessions out of suspects too.

What the fuck is your drunken ass babbling about now?

You were a pilot correct?

you're repeating yourself. cookie.

 

[The Rabbi]

Remember that waterboarding works....Our guys in WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam sang like birds when waterboarded. The Japanese, North Koreans, and North Vietnamese got excellent intell from our guys that way.



....but it's NOT torture.

he Hanoi Hilton was one site used by the North Vietnamese Army to house, torture and interrogate captured servicemen, mostly American pilots shot down during bombing raids.[12] Although North Vietnam was a signatory of the Third Geneva Convention of 1949,[12] which demanded "decent and humane treatment" of prisoners of war, severe torture methods were employed, such as rope bindings, irons, beatings, and prolonged solitary confinement.[12][7][13]

Gee i dont see waterboarding listed there.
Fuckwad.

 

[del]

Remember that waterboarding works....Our guys in WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam sang like birds when waterboarded. The Japanese, North Koreans, and North Vietnamese got excellent intell from our guys that way.



....but it's NOT torture.

he Hanoi Hilton was one site used by the North Vietnamese Army to house, torture and interrogate captured servicemen, mostly American pilots shot down during bombing raids.[12] Although North Vietnam was a signatory of the Third Geneva Convention of 1949,[12] which demanded "decent and humane treatment" of prisoners of war, severe torture methods were employed, such as rope bindings, irons, beatings, and prolonged solitary confinement.[12][7][13]

Gee i dont see waterboarding listed there.
Fuckwad.

i doubt you see much more than your duodenum, ace.

 

[The Rabbi]

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Del makes more and more good points with every post!