A Conservative's view on waterboarding

[Liability]

If the President gave explicit and unambiguous direct orders to kill Osama bin Laden on sight, I have absolutely NO problem with it.

I doubt anyone does.

I wish that were the case. Some folks here are surprisingly "ok" with it.

But there ARE folks (like that asshat fat lard-ass piece of shit Hollyweird "director", Michael Moore) who DO object to the deliberate targeting (for assassination) of Osama bin Flyfucker.

Moore (that piece of filth) said, "We've lost something of our soul here in this country...something that separates us from other parts, other countries where we say everybody has their day in court no matter how bad of a person, no matter what piece of scum they are, they have a right to a trial...after World War II, we just didn't go in and put a bullet to the head of all the top Nazis. We put them on trial." -- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/06/michael-moore-piers-morgan-bin-laden_n_858472.html

What a fucking schmuck.

 

[Valerie]

I wasn't talking about how the intelligence gained was used though Val. I was referring to the posts regarding water boarding for ANY reason. The point is because the Bush Administration allowed it, they are still scum despite the results re bin Laden. It still violated international law and never should have been used, yadda yadda.

However, if the enhanced interrogation had been authorized under Obama with the same results, the same people trashing Bush and waterboarding would now be looking for ways to defend it.

And most of those condemning water boarding won't discuss any remote reason to deviate from a no-waterboarding standard policy.

And perhaps I am second guessing some folks here, but it comes from long experience and observation of this kind of phenomenon over a lot of years now. It has become pretty predictable.

America is still in a situation where we are being threatened with a potential crisis situation where hundreds or thousands of innocent lives could be lost...


The author of the article is not a "lefty", del is not a "lefty", the US Military JAGS, Colin Powell, not "lefties"... This is not a matter of left/right politics, but a matter of long standing American principles, that is the entire point of the OP, so I'm not sure why you imagine lefties should come in here and speculate about hypotheticals which would justify torture...???

I wasn't referring to the article in the OP, however, when I made my observation. And yes, it was an ad hominem observation, but it is an honest observation just the same.

The degree of 'terribleness' of any controversial activity is too often determined by which political party, religion, group, person etc. does it.

It was based on long experience with a pronounced double standard too often applied based on ideology or political party or sociopolitical leanings.

Old Rocks negs me because he says I am advocating torture which I have not done at any time in any fashion.

I have been clear that that our national policy is and should be that cruel and inhumane treatment is neither condoned nor utliized.

I have been clear that I will condemn any enhanced interrogation used to find out whether or if somebody knows something useful. And I certainly will strongly consign to hell those who would do that for their amusement.

Nor have I bashed the left or liberals in this discussion but rather only observed the usual M.O. (actually from both sides) that an action is usually condoned or condemned according to who does it. At least that was my intent.

And I have observed that almost nobody is willing to even consider whether that secret agent was justified in shooting off that toe,

or whether one would of necessity look the other way should enhanced interrogation be utilized in a matter in which hundreds or thousands of innocent lives were in imminent danger.

For me, intellectual honesty includes what may be necessary as well as what must be policy.

Are you saying torture may sometimes be necessary or not???







>>>

As I look at the sometimes tedious and monotonous back and forth on a thread like this, I submit two observations:

1. Just as I opined, the leftwing ideologues ignored an opportunity to actually think about the difference between policy and reality in a crisis situation.

2. And I now further opine that had waterboarding been used during the Obama Administration to obtain information useful in killing Osama bin Laden or thwarting furture mass murders via terrorist attack, the same people condemning the procedure would likely be defending it now. And I doubt that many conservatives would hold much different positions that what they now hold.

That's not the case with me. Who are you talking about exactly?

I'm saying that the leftwing will NOT even look at, much less discuss, what they would do in a crisis situation in which hundreds or thousands of innocent lives were at stake. The conservatives have at least acknowledged they would not apply the standard policy at such times. I used an illustration from a scene in "Guarding Tess" and said it would be ignored. It was.

And I think I know how it works well enough to believe that had the Annointed One been the one to use waterboarding to get useful information on the whereabout of bin Laden instead of that happening during the Bush Administraation, we probably would not have enough discussion about it to fill twenty seven pages of a thread now.

The current administration did act on intelligence that was obtained by President Bush.


In my my book, some things go way beyond politics... I think it's sad some people have such little faith in the intentions of their fellow Americans...

 

[Foxfyre]

I am saying, Valerie, that if hundreds or thousands of innocent lives are at stake and time is of the essence, I don't think we can be too picky about what they do to a terrorist to get the information necessary to stop those deaths from happening.

I think intellectual honesty requires that we at least look at that.

It's all well and good to say that honorable people stand on principle and that Christians would not violate their principles no matter what. But what about a principle of savings hundreds or thousands of innocent lives and doing whatever is necessary to do that?

It's sort of the principle involved in dropping the Atomic bomb. Is it justifiable to kill tens of thousands to save millions? That was the choice our leaders were up against at that time.

Was the secret service agent justified in shooting off that toe? It's a question everybody is determinably avoiding isn't it.

It is the situation that probably resulted in the directive to the Navy Seals to shoot on sight. Unlike the Nazi leaders in Germany, we were dealing with a person who was plotting and who was capable of causing thousands of more deaths to innocents in the USA and elsewhere. Was it necessary to shoot him? I don't know. I can't celebrate that, but I also can't find it in my heart to feel real bad about the fact they did.

Intellectual honesty requires that all this be included in the debate.

 

[Wicked Jester]

They never informed us that they had several safety nets in place,

Come one. They didn't have to. You know damn well that there are safety nets in place in a TRADOC event. People don't like to ruin their careers.

so why inform that scumbag?.....We had no idea one of those standing over us was a physician, or of any limitations.

Did you have any idea that you were carrying blanks at Ranger School?

Come on. Attempts to paint this as the same thing as SERE training is about as silly as comparing Jump School to Normandy.

And, you yourself said that half of torture is mind fuck....So, all those enhanced interrogation methods I mentioned must be a form of at least "half torture", and therefore wrong, correct?

Uh, no. As I said, the difference is in the ends. I don't recall ever being offered food or sleep at Ranger School to give up secret information.

Even if that had happened (as it did back in the day when the bad guys could capture you), there is a big damn difference in a TRADOC event and real life.

You and I know it.

Bullshit GTH......Why would we inform KSM of safety nets in place?

The whole point is to mind fuck, To mentally wear you down......The argument is whether waterboarding is torturous....The methods used in SERE and on KSM are one in the same, with the same controls in place.

Now, you yourself stated that basically any sort of forced mind fuck is "half torture".....So, going by your surmise, all those enhanced interrogations that involve mindfuck should never be used, because they are torturous and designed to wear a person down to the point of giving up info..........You can't have it both ways. Either all those tactics are torturous, or they are not.

Forget RANGER school.....We know what goes on, and the reasoning for it......We're talking about real life EC's here.........So, should all those methods that involve mind fuck be taken away, seeing as though you feel mind fuck is "half torture"?

Or is "half torture" ok?

 

[Sheldon]

If the President gave explicit and unambiguous direct orders to kill Osama bin Laden on sight, I have absolutely NO problem with it.

I doubt anyone does.

I wish that were the case. Some folks here are surprisingly "ok" with it.

But there ARE folks (like that asshat fat lard-ass piece of shit Hollyweird "director", Michael Moore) who DO object to the deliberate targeting (for assassination) of Osama bin Flyfucker.

Moore (that piece of filth) said, "We've lost something of our soul here in this country...something that separates us from other parts, other countries where we say everybody has their day in court no matter how bad of a person, no matter what piece of scum they are, they have a right to a trial...after World War II, we just didn't go in and put a bullet to the head of all the top Nazis. We put them on trial." -- Michael Moore To Piers Morgan On Bin Laden: 'We've Lost Something Of Our Soul' (VIDEO)

What a fucking schmuck.

Human Right's Watch and Amnesty international have asked some questions about the legality, and sent letters to the White House asking for more detail about what went down in Abadabadadingdong or however it's spelled.

Questions around operation against Osama bin Laden | Amnesty International

 

[Sheldon]

And you can bet that one of the main topics in Pre-mb was the fact that explosives were likely the main threat, and don't even play around. Take him out on sight.

I would bet they gave him about .5 seconds to get on the floor.

It seems to me after looking at what we know to this point, Bin Laden was quite comfortable where he was.......Didn't really feel that there was much chance of being found. He had money and phone numbers sewn into his clothes, but as reported today, they have yet to find any evidence of an escape plan.......Which seems to show that the Paki bastards were definitely involved in hiding him. And would probably be the ones to help with his escape if tipped off.

I agree. I think he counted on the ISI to protect him. I think he also counted on our continued stupidity in alerting Pakistan before we made a move.

No telling how many blown operations there were in the past because we did just that.

Yeah I've always wondered if the ISI were in contact with, if not ObL directly, at least some of the al-Qaeda higher-ups and were tipping them off on any of our planned operations they were aware of. It's sort of conspiracy theory, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case.

 

[Wicked Jester]

And you can bet that one of the main topics in Pre-mb was the fact that explosives were likely the main threat, and don't even play around. Take him out on sight.

I would bet they gave him about .5 seconds to get on the floor.

It seems to me after looking at what we know to this point, Bin Laden was quite comfortable where he was.......Didn't really feel that there was much chance of being found. He had money and phone numbers sewn into his clothes, but as reported today, they have yet to find any evidence of an escape plan.......Which seems to show that the Paki bastards were definitely involved in hiding him. And would probably be the ones to help with his escape if tipped off.

I agree. I think he counted on the ISI to protect him. I think he also counted on our continued stupidity in alerting Pakistan before we made a move.

No telling how many blown operations there were in the past because we did just that.

Yeah I've always wondered if the ISI were in contact with, if not ObL directly, at least some of the al-Qaeda higher-ups and were tipping them off on any of our planned operations they were aware of. It's sort of conspiracy theory, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case.

The whole thing just stinks........He's in a well to do neighborhood, in a giant house circled with gigantic walls and barbed wire. The area is primarily populated with retired Pakistani military officers and intelligence personnel, just down the road from a military base....And no one had a clue he was there?

LMAO!........They damn sure knew he was there.

 

[Sheldon]

I would bet they gave him about .5 seconds to get on the floor.



I agree. I think he counted on the ISI to protect him. I think he also counted on our continued stupidity in alerting Pakistan before we made a move.

No telling how many blown operations there were in the past because we did just that.

Yeah I've always wondered if the ISI were in contact with, if not ObL directly, at least some of the al-Qaeda higher-ups and were tipping them off on any of our planned operations they were aware of. It's sort of conspiracy theory, but it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case.

The whole thing just stinks........He's in a well to do neighborhood, in a giant house circled with gigantic walls and barbed wire. The area is primarily populated with retired Pakistani military officers and intelligence personnel, just down the road from a military base....And no one had a clue he was there?

LMAO!........They damn sure knew he was there.

Plus, it's to their benefit to keep al-Qaeda as elusive as they can. It means American troops stay over there longer on the hunt, which means we continue to need their access to intel and cooperation, which gives them leverage to continue and extort us for "aid" money. I think it was around $3b last time I checked?

 

[del]

They never informed us that they had several safety nets in place, so why inform that scumbag?.....We had no idea one of those standing over us was a physician, or of any limitations.

And, you yourself said that half of torture is mind fuck....So, all those enhanced interrogation methods I mentioned must be a form of at least "half torture", and therefore wrong, correct?

GMAFB

i thought there was an intelligence requirement for SF?

guess i was wrong

Guess you never experienced it, obviously......It's designed to replecate real life. You don't even know at what point it's going to happen. It's done when you are already disoriented.

Get a fuckin' clue.

nope, never went through SERE, but, with respect, i flat out don't believe you could be disoriented enough not to realize you're taking part in an exercise.

 

[del]

Republicans rightly argue that much credit is owed to George W. Bush, who launched an effective war on terror and pursued it with fierce resolve.

For that part also, del?...



peace...

did i post it, fuckwit?

why, yes, i did.

i'm sorry you're too fucking stupid to be able to do more than cheer for your *side* and whine about obama, but don't put your shit on me, db.

moron

 

[mal]

Republicans rightly argue that much credit is owed to George W. Bush, who launched an effective war on terror and pursued it with fierce resolve.

For that part also, del?...



peace...

did i post it, fuckwit?

why, yes, i did.

i'm sorry you're too fucking stupid to be able to do more than cheer for your *side* and whine about obama, but don't put your shit on me, db.

moron

It's Friday, Sally... Lighten the Fuck up.



peace...

 

[del]

For that part also, del?...



peace...

did i post it, fuckwit?

why, yes, i did.

i'm sorry you're too fucking stupid to be able to do more than cheer for your *side* and whine about obama, but don't put your shit on me, db.

moron

It's Friday, Sally... Lighten the Fuck up.



peace...

sit

 

[jillian]

I am saying, Valerie, that if hundreds or thousands of innocent lives are at stake and time is of the essence, I don't think we can be too picky about what they do to a terrorist to get the information necessary to stop those deaths from happening.

I think intellectual honesty requires that we at least look at that.

It's all well and good to say that honorable people stand on principle and that Christians would not violate their principles no matter what. But what about a principle of savings hundreds or thousands of innocent lives and doing whatever is necessary to do that?

It's sort of the principle involved in dropping the Atomic bomb. Is it justifiable to kill tens of thousands to save millions? That was the choice our leaders were up against at that time.

Was the secret service agent justified in shooting off that toe? It's a question everybody is determinably avoiding isn't it.

It is the situation that probably resulted in the directive to the Navy Seals to shoot on sight. Unlike the Nazi leaders in Germany, we were dealing with a person who was plotting and who was capable of causing thousands of more deaths to innocents in the USA and elsewhere. Was it necessary to shoot him? I don't know. I can't celebrate that, but I also can't find it in my heart to feel real bad about the fact they did.

Intellectual honesty requires that all this be included in the debate.

intellectual honesty requires that one not claim that any of the intel that helped get osama bin laden came from torture.

the only thing that indicates that is spin from cheney rummy and company saying that the program "may" have resulted in information.

perhaps listening to facts and not their spin might be helpful. john mccain made that pretty clear yesterday, i'd think.

you either are for or agin... there can't be a middle ground because like being pregnant, there's not really any such thing as being a little bit tortured.

 

[mal]

did i post it, fuckwit?

why, yes, i did.

i'm sorry you're too fucking stupid to be able to do more than cheer for your *side* and whine about obama, but don't put your shit on me, db.

moron

It's Friday, Sally... Lighten the Fuck up.



peace...

sit

You ask me, "how high?", Junior...



peace...

 

[American Cowboy]

I hope they are water boarding all of Osama's widows as we speak, if for no other reason than to get the taste of camel ass out of their mouths.

You know OBL as dipped his stick in both

 

[del]

I hope they are water boarding all of Osama's widows as we speak, if for no other reason than to get the taste of camel ass out of their mouths.

lead paint chips aren't snack food

 

[Wicked Jester]

GMAFB

i thought there was an intelligence requirement for SF?

guess i was wrong

Guess you never experienced it, obviously......It's designed to replecate real life. You don't even know at what point it's going to happen. It's done when you are already disoriented.

Get a fuckin' clue.

nope, never went through SERE, but, with respect, i flat out don't believe you could be disoriented enough not to realize you're taking part in an exercise.

Of course it's an exercise...An exercise where you have no idea who is who.....And yes, they get you in there when you are extremely disoriented.

It's scary shit, but in no way torture.....And there is no way in hell that KSM should have been made aware of anything........Strap his ass to the board and let the fun begin....After all, he was the key Al qaeda leader. The man who personally planned many attacks, too include 9/11.

 

[Wicked Jester]

I am saying, Valerie, that if hundreds or thousands of innocent lives are at stake and time is of the essence, I don't think we can be too picky about what they do to a terrorist to get the information necessary to stop those deaths from happening.

I think intellectual honesty requires that we at least look at that.

It's all well and good to say that honorable people stand on principle and that Christians would not violate their principles no matter what. But what about a principle of savings hundreds or thousands of innocent lives and doing whatever is necessary to do that?

It's sort of the principle involved in dropping the Atomic bomb. Is it justifiable to kill tens of thousands to save millions? That was the choice our leaders were up against at that time.

Was the secret service agent justified in shooting off that toe? It's a question everybody is determinably avoiding isn't it.

It is the situation that probably resulted in the directive to the Navy Seals to shoot on sight. Unlike the Nazi leaders in Germany, we were dealing with a person who was plotting and who was capable of causing thousands of more deaths to innocents in the USA and elsewhere. Was it necessary to shoot him? I don't know. I can't celebrate that, but I also can't find it in my heart to feel real bad about the fact they did.

Intellectual honesty requires that all this be included in the debate.

intellectual honesty requires that one not claim that any of the intel that helped get osama bin laden came from torture.

the only thing that indicates that is spin from cheney rummy and company saying that the program "may" have resulted in information.

perhaps listening to facts and not their spin might be helpful. john mccain made that pretty clear yesterday, i'd think.

you either are for or agin... there can't be a middle ground because like being pregnant, there's not really any such thing as being a little bit tortured.

Then you better go talk to Panetta who made us all aware that waterboarding provided intel that helped lead to Bin Laden.

Are you saying he's lying?.......'cause he has yet to come out and retract anything he said.

 

[del]

Guess you never experienced it, obviously......It's designed to replecate real life. You don't even know at what point it's going to happen. It's done when you are already disoriented.

Get a fuckin' clue.

nope, never went through SERE, but, with respect, i flat out don't believe you could be disoriented enough not to realize you're taking part in an exercise.

Of course it's an exercise...An exercise where you have no idea who is who.....And yes, they get you in there when you are extremely disoriented.

It's scary shit, but in no way torture.....And there is no way in hell that KSM should have been made aware of anything.

not knowing that there are limits, a safet net, whatever you want to call it, makes it more than a scary experience, imo.

we'll just have to disagree on this topic. thanks for your insights.

 

[Wicked Jester]

nope, never went through SERE, but, with respect, i flat out don't believe you could be disoriented enough not to realize you're taking part in an exercise.

Of course it's an exercise...An exercise where you have no idea who is who.....And yes, they get you in there when you are extremely disoriented.

It's scary shit, but in no way torture.....And there is no way in hell that KSM should have been made aware of anything.

not knowing that there are limits, a safet net, whatever you want to call it, makes it more than a scary experience, imo.

we'll just have to disagree on this topic. thanks for your insights.

Fair enough.