A Conservative's view on waterboarding

[Robert]

Yes lets all have a good cry because some ass wipe that want's all of us dead got wet. You need a tissue princess?

Sweet. Internet tough-guyism.

Just pointing out that the training at Ranger School is designed to suck, but it's not the same as torture.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

My thoughts as Drock has pointed is that I stomp only Muslim puppies because Muslim Puppies are inherently bad. But the Babies Oh the Babies!!

My thoughts on the matter is rather simple

Yes lets all have a good cry because some ass wipe that want's all of us dead got wet

I don't have a problem with it. Or to put it succinctly Do unto them before they do unto us.

 

[geauxtohell]

My thoughts as Drock has pointed is that I stomp only Muslim puppies because Muslim Puppies are inherently bad. But the Babies Oh the Babies!!

What in the fuck are you talking about? I don't care about your conversation with another poster.

I don't have a problem with it. Or to put it succinctly Do unto them before they do unto us.

Great. We are entitled to our opinion. I've yet to see you actually address any of my points on the matter. Just moronic hyperbole.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Your U.S. Government does far worse than dunking Terrorists' heads in water. And they do it on a daily basis. For example,they recently bombed and killed Gaddafi's Son and Grandchildren. What did Gaddafi's Son and Grandchildren have to do with anything? They also just shot & killed an unarmed man in his home and in front of his children. So all this whining about dunking Terrorists' heads in water really is just political Bullshit. The Left/Democrats wanted the power back and now that they have that power back,anything goes. "Water-Boarding" was a scam controversy. The U.S. Government does far worse than that all around the World on a daily basis. And guess what? It's both Democrats & Republicans doing it.

I agree

 

[bigrebnc1775]

You bought a gross of those, didn't you?

Why?.......You need one?

No, you can have them....I'm fine without one. But I suspect it would fit beautifully and appropriately on your vehicle.

You're a hypocrite if you think water boarding is bad and shooting and unarmed man is acceptable.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Ya Numbnuts I want Muslim's killed and I get to eat the babies their bones are ground up and used as fertilizer. Hell don't cha know Id killdem all arrrrgggg.

You're a simpering asshat that doesn't have a clue as to what the hell you're talking about.

When did you stop beating your wife or did you transfer that to your daughter?......Really?

I'm an atheist, all religions (including yours and theirs) are equally stupid to me. I have morals, unnecessary violence is something I'm against, unlike yourself.

You want all muslims killed and/or tortured, you can give cute little stories, but that fact remains and it's that fact that makes you immoral.

You bastard Don't forget the puppies! I take great pride in that!

You have no morals kid morals mean standing up for what you believe in even if its not the Popular thing to do. People like you are the ones that depend on everyone else to make it right when the shit hit's the fan so you don't need to soil your hands or god forbid break a sweat.

When shit hits the fan is the exact time we should stick to our morals rather than abandoning them as you advocate.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

/\ This.

We are better than that. Or we should be if we are not.

Like shooting an unarmed man? You can't claim the moral high ground on waterboarding and think it's perfectly fine to kill an unarmed man no matter how much you hate him.

I can damn well do as I please.

Osama was a combatant killed in a raid. Whether that was right or wrong comes down to a split decision made by a shooter on the ground. The mission was not, despite your claims to the contrary, to "kill OBL". It was "kill or capture". He got killed. Oh-fucking-well.

That's far different from taking detainees who are locked up with absolutely no question about whether or not they are "in the fight" and torturing them. It's not the same ballpark, it's not even the same fucking sport.

Osama was a combatant killed in a raid. Whether that was right or wrong comes down to a split decision made by a shooter on the ground. The mission was not, despite your claims to the contrary, to "kill OBL". It was "kill or capture". He got killed. Oh-fucking-well.

There are rules of engagement that restrain the action of the military from atrocities.
Your condemnation of water boarding and could careless about shooting an unarmed man is a bit hypocritical.

 

[Wicked Jester]

And we were waterboarded at SERE........That was a far cry from torture.....Definitely uncomfortable and scary, but not torture......And you know it.

Now, you want to talk about Chinese, Japanese, and Vietnamese versions of waterboarding, that's fucking torture to the core.

Again, I never went to SERE school, so I have no personal perspective on it.

You don't find it ironic that SERE school is designed to help American servicemen and women Survive, Evade, RESIST, and Escape a ruthless mock enemy that implements the same tactics to torture U.S. soldiers that we want to argue is not actually torture.

I would also argue that most anything in TRADOC is going to be a watered down (pun intended) version of the real thing. In the back of your mind, you know that every training event has a limitation. At Ranger School they eventually have to let you eat, sleep, and get some warmth. You just have to be tough enough to stick it out until then. I would imagine at SERE school, somewhere in the back of your mind you took some comfort in knowing that this was just training.

That's a far cry from an actual real time event. Half of torture is the mind fuck.

SERE is exactly how they did it to KSM......with limitations, a doctor present, etc........The military would never get away with actually torturing its own.......And that is why federal lawyers were used to ensure that the non-torturous guidelines used by the military were used on EC's

And, you say that half of "torture" is mind fuck........Sleep deprevation is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind. Food deprevation is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind. Subjected cold is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind. Loud music for hours on end is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind.

So, I suppose we should do away with all mind fucks, known as enhanced interrogation, and just ask 'em questions....Because mind fucks must be torture.....Or, at least "half torture". .......I guess half torture, using your surmise, is A-OK.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

First, in my opinion a practice that produces intense pain, injury, maiming, and/or causes lasting ill effects to a person's body and/or mind is torture.

It should not be thrown in with practices and techniques that induce dread, fear, humiliation, or tolerable discomfort that might be deemed cruel and unusual punishment, but does not cause intense pain, injury, lasting detriment to health, etc.

I think decent people do not willingly subject people to either torture or other unacceptable treatment. They don' enjoy seeing it in the movies or on TV. It dehumanizes us and makes us no better than the most cruel of animals.

So if somebody asks me, a conservative, whether I condone torture, I can unequivocably say no, I do not. And I will personally do whatever I can to ensure that is the policy of our country.

However. . . .

If somebody has information that could prevent somebody committing an imminent 9/11 or otherwise kill or maim hundreds or thousands of innocent people, most especially if it was people I can honestly say I won't care what they do to him to get the information to save those people.

What waterboarding is, is a very uncomfortable temporary mind fuck, fully meant to soften a person. The info doesn't come from the actual act, it comes from the fact that unless you start squealing like a stuck pig, there could be more mind fucks in your near future.

Now, I experienced actual physical torture and pain, and the ultimate mind fuck of sleep deprived hallucinations during RANGER school. And that was achieved through normal training methods........Waterboarding in S.E.R.E. came nowhere near the pain and mind fuck that basic RANGER training did.......Nor, did waterboarding come anywhere near the mind fuck and sheer terror of being in numerous combat firefights and sketchy situations where the enemy is doing everything they can to turn you into a corpse.

Sleep and food deprivation at Ranger School is done to approximate combat stress. That's a far cry from torture, and you know it.

Under the definition of torture, it is torture.

 

[geauxtohell]

There are rules of engagement that restrain the action of the military from atrocities.
Your condemnation of water boarding and could careless about shooting an unarmed man is a bit hypocritical.

Great. Now show me how and where the ROE was violated and you'll have a point.

Even if the ROE was violated, shit happens in combat. That doesn't mean there was "mens rea".

Bin Laden didn't have to have a weapon in his hand to be considered a threat.

Your attempts to link a non sequitur isn't hypocritical. It's just laughable.

 

[geauxtohell]

What waterboarding is, is a very uncomfortable temporary mind fuck, fully meant to soften a person. The info doesn't come from the actual act, it comes from the fact that unless you start squealing like a stuck pig, there could be more mind fucks in your near future.

Now, I experienced actual physical torture and pain, and the ultimate mind fuck of sleep deprived hallucinations during RANGER school. And that was achieved through normal training methods........Waterboarding in S.E.R.E. came nowhere near the pain and mind fuck that basic RANGER training did.......Nor, did waterboarding come anywhere near the mind fuck and sheer terror of being in numerous combat firefights and sketchy situations where the enemy is doing everything they can to turn you into a corpse.

Sleep and food deprivation at Ranger School is done to approximate combat stress. That's a far cry from torture, and you know it.

Under the definition of torture, it is torture.

No it isn't.

"... any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."

http://www.un.org/millennium/law/iv-9.htm

Again, your attempts to link two non-related events is absurd.

I'll take it you've never been to Ranger School. There is a purpose behind food and sleep deprivation. It has nothing to do with torture.

 

[geauxtohell]

SERE is exactly how they did it to KSM......with limitations, a doctor present, etc........The military would never get away with actually torturing its own.......And that is why federal lawyers were used to ensure that the non-torturous guidelines used by the military were used on EC's

Do you think they informed KSM that they had several safety nets in place?

And, you say that half of "torture" is mind fuck........Sleep deprevation is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind. Food deprevation is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind. Subjected cold is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind. Loud music for hours on end is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind.

So, I suppose we should do away with all mind fucks, known as enhanced interrogation, and just ask 'em questions....Because mind fucks must be torture.....Or, at least "half torture". .......I guess half torture, using your surmise, is A-OK.

The difference is the intended purpose behind the "mind fuck". The purpose behind torture is to extract information. The purpose behind the Ranger School suckage is to train people for combat.

You would think this would be self evident.

 

[Robert]

My thoughts as Drock has pointed is that I stomp only Muslim puppies because Muslim Puppies are inherently bad. But the Babies Oh the Babies!!

What in the fuck are you talking about? I don't care about your conversation with another poster.

I don't have a problem with it. Or to put it succinctly Do unto them before they do unto us.

Great. We are entitled to our opinion. I've yet to see you actually address any of my points on the matter. Just moronic hyperbole.

Your points being training is far different then the real thing I agree

Your points about UBL being killed I disagree the Seals had taken the compound they found UBL apparently unarmed hiding behind his wife they double tapped his ass I don't have a problem with that but we all know it was purely an assassination nothing more nothing less and it was done by our CINC.

I don't have an issue with UBL death I have even less of an issue with having used "waterboarding" to gain the information to find him.

On this issue nobody has the moral High ground but then as I have said we did what we needed to do why the left continues to push that Torture is bad but shooting an Old unarmed man is good is completely beyond me.

 

[Wicked Jester]

There are rules of engagement that restrain the action of the military from atrocities.
Your condemnation of water boarding and could careless about shooting an unarmed man is a bit hypocritical.

Great. Now show me how and where the ROE was violated and you'll have a point.

Even if the ROE was violated, shit happens in combat. That doesn't mean there was "mens rea".

Bin Laden didn't have to have a weapon in his hand to be considered a threat.

Your attempts to link a non sequitur isn't hypocritical. It's just laughable.

I fully agree that ROE's were not violated, for the simple fact of tactics used by Bin Laden and terrorists in general.......The very real scenario of possibly being strapped, or switched for remote detonation of explosives.

They did the right thing.

 

[bodecea]

SERE is exactly how they did it to KSM......with limitations, a doctor present, etc........The military would never get away with actually torturing its own.......And that is why federal lawyers were used to ensure that the non-torturous guidelines used by the military were used on EC's

Do you think they informed KSM that they had several safety nets in place?

And, you say that half of "torture" is mind fuck........Sleep deprevation is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind. Food deprevation is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind. Subjected cold is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind. Loud music for hours on end is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind.

So, I suppose we should do away with all mind fucks, known as enhanced interrogation, and just ask 'em questions....Because mind fucks must be torture.....Or, at least "half torture". .......I guess half torture, using your surmise, is A-OK.

The difference is the intended purpose behind the "mind fuck". The purpose behind torture is to extract information. The purpose behind the Ranger School suckage is to train people for combat.

You would think this would be self evident.

You would certainly think so.....

 

[Wicked Jester]

SERE is exactly how they did it to KSM......with limitations, a doctor present, etc........The military would never get away with actually torturing its own.......And that is why federal lawyers were used to ensure that the non-torturous guidelines used by the military were used on EC's

Do you think they informed KSM that they had several safety nets in place?

And, you say that half of "torture" is mind fuck........Sleep deprevation is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind. Food deprevation is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind. Subjected cold is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind. Loud music for hours on end is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind.

So, I suppose we should do away with all mind fucks, known as enhanced interrogation, and just ask 'em questions....Because mind fucks must be torture.....Or, at least "half torture". .......I guess half torture, using your surmise, is A-OK.

The difference is the intended purpose behind the "mind fuck". The purpose behind torture is to extract information. The purpose behind the Ranger School suckage is to train people for combat.

You would think this would be self evident.

They never informed us that they had several safety nets in place, so why inform that scumbag?.....We had no idea one of those standing over us was a physician, or of any limitations.

And, you yourself said that half of torture is mind fuck....So, all those enhanced interrogation methods I mentioned must be a form of at least "half torture", and therefore wrong, correct?

 

[geauxtohell]

There are rules of engagement that restrain the action of the military from atrocities.
Your condemnation of water boarding and could careless about shooting an unarmed man is a bit hypocritical.

Great. Now show me how and where the ROE was violated and you'll have a point.

Even if the ROE was violated, shit happens in combat. That doesn't mean there was "mens rea".

Bin Laden didn't have to have a weapon in his hand to be considered a threat.

Your attempts to link a non sequitur isn't hypocritical. It's just laughable.

I fully agree that ROE's were not violated, for the simple fact of tactics used by Bin Laden and terrorists in general.......The very real scenario of possibly being strapped, or switched for remote detonation of explosives.

They did the right thing.

Exactly. The "Most Dangerous Course of Action" in my mind would be OBL trying to matyr himself by self detonation to take as many Americans as possible with him and destroy any attempt to take his body and put it on parade. I'd imagine the SEALs (and the rest of the world) didn't realize how much of a fucking coward he'd be at the end. The most likely believed he'd, as he'd insinuated in the past, try and die like a warrior and not a sniveling little bitch.

Anyone that's done CQB realizes it's a high pressure environment. The odds of an unarmed person being shot are pretty high. It's hard enough not to have a fratricide incident.

This is something that some people can't seem to get through their minds.

 

[del]

SERE is exactly how they did it to KSM......with limitations, a doctor present, etc........The military would never get away with actually torturing its own.......And that is why federal lawyers were used to ensure that the non-torturous guidelines used by the military were used on EC's

Do you think they informed KSM that they had several safety nets in place?

And, you say that half of "torture" is mind fuck........Sleep deprevation is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind. Food deprevation is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind. Subjected cold is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind. Loud music for hours on end is total mind fuck, designed to fuck the mind.

So, I suppose we should do away with all mind fucks, known as enhanced interrogation, and just ask 'em questions....Because mind fucks must be torture.....Or, at least "half torture". .......I guess half torture, using your surmise, is A-OK.

The difference is the intended purpose behind the "mind fuck". The purpose behind torture is to extract information. The purpose behind the Ranger School suckage is to train people for combat.

You would think this would be self evident.

They never informed us that they had several safety nets in place, so why inform that scumbag?.....We had no idea one of those standing over us was a physician, or of any limitations.

And, you yourself said that half of torture is mind fuck....So, all those enhanced interrogation methods I mentioned must be a form of at least "half torture", and therefore wrong, correct?

GMAFB

i thought there was an intelligence requirement for SF?

guess i was wrong

 

[geauxtohell]

Your points being training is far different then the real thing I agree

Your points about UBL being killed I disagree the Seals had taken the compound they found UBL apparently unarmed hiding behind his wife they double tapped his ass I don't have a problem with that but we all know it was purely an assassination nothing more nothing less and it was done by our CINC.

I don't have an issue with UBL death I have even less of an issue with having used "waterboarding" to gain the information to find him.

On this issue nobody has the moral High ground but then as I have said we did what we needed to do why the left continues to push that Torture is bad but shooting an Old unarmed man is good is completely beyond me.

American service men aren't assassins and this wasn't a fucking "assassination".

Pull your head out of your ass.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

There are rules of engagement that restrain the action of the military from atrocities.
Your condemnation of water boarding and could careless about shooting an unarmed man is a bit hypocritical.

Great. Now show me how and where the ROE was violated and you'll have a point.

Even if the ROE was violated, shit happens in combat. That doesn't mean there was "mens rea".

Bin Laden didn't have to have a weapon in his hand to be considered a threat.

Your attempts to link a non sequitur isn't hypocritical. It's just laughable.

Here's an example of rules of engagment.
2004-12-07 04:00:00 PST Baghdad -- U.S. military prosecutors alleged Monday that American soldiers shot to death two unarmed Iraqi men in their homes, then tried to cover up their crimes by claiming that the Iraqis had reached for guns.

In chilling detail, the prosecutors and other U.S. soldiers described in a makeshift courtroom here how the two accused U.S. servicemen casually executed the Iraqis even though the civilians posed no immediate danger.

Sgt. Michael P. Williams, 25, of Memphis, Tenn., and Spc. Brent W. May, 22, of Salem, Ohio, are the second pair of soldiers from the 1st Battalion, 41st Infantry Regiment from Fort Riley, Kan., to face murder charges stemming from separate incidents in August. Williams and May could face the death penalty if convicted.


2 U.S. soldiers accused of executing 2 unarmed Iraqis - SFGate

 

[geauxtohell]

They never informed us that they had several safety nets in place,

Come one. They didn't have to. You know damn well that there are safety nets in place in a TRADOC event. People don't like to ruin their careers.

so why inform that scumbag?.....We had no idea one of those standing over us was a physician, or of any limitations.

Did you have any idea that you were carrying blanks at Ranger School?

Come on. Attempts to paint this as the same thing as SERE training is about as silly as comparing Jump School to Normandy.

And, you yourself said that half of torture is mind fuck....So, all those enhanced interrogation methods I mentioned must be a form of at least "half torture", and therefore wrong, correct?

Uh, no. As I said, the difference is in the ends. I don't recall ever being offered food or sleep at Ranger School to give up secret information.

Even if that had happened (as it did back in the day when the bad guys could capture you), there is a big damn difference in a TRADOC event and real life.

You and I know it.