A Conservative's view on waterboarding

[bigrebnc1775]

There are rules of engagement that restrain the action of the military from atrocities.
Your condemnation of water boarding and could careless about shooting an unarmed man is a bit hypocritical.

Great. Now show me how and where the ROE was violated and you'll have a point.

Even if the ROE was violated, shit happens in combat. That doesn't mean there was "mens rea".

Bin Laden didn't have to have a weapon in his hand to be considered a threat.

Your attempts to link a non sequitur isn't hypocritical. It's just laughable.

I fully agree that ROE's were not violated, for the simple fact of tactics used by Bin Laden and terrorists in general.......The very real scenario of possibly being strapped, or switched for remote detonation of explosives.

They did the right thing.

Think about it for a second it was reported that he was in his sleeping clothes do you actually think he would have had a bomb strapped to him while asleep?

 

[Robert]

Your points being training is far different then the real thing I agree

Your points about UBL being killed I disagree the Seals had taken the compound they found UBL apparently unarmed hiding behind his wife they double tapped his ass I don't have a problem with that but we all know it was purely an assassination nothing more nothing less and it was done by our CINC.

I don't have an issue with UBL death I have even less of an issue with having used "waterboarding" to gain the information to find him.

On this issue nobody has the moral High ground but then as I have said we did what we needed to do why the left continues to push that Torture is bad but shooting an Old unarmed man is good is completely beyond me.

American service men aren't assassins and this wasn't a fucking "assassination".

Pull your head out of your ass.

If it wasn't an Assassination why then didn't they throw his ass in the Second Bird alive instead of dead I would have thought as much as some screamed at the previous administration about insuring he was brought to America for trail in civilian courts he would have been quite the trophy.

 

[geauxtohell]

Here's an example of rules of engagment.
2004-12-07 04:00:00 PST Baghdad -- U.S. military prosecutors alleged Monday that American soldiers shot to death two unarmed Iraqi men in their homes, then tried to cover up their crimes by claiming that the Iraqis had reached for guns.

In chilling detail, the prosecutors and other U.S. soldiers described in a makeshift courtroom here how the two accused U.S. servicemen casually executed the Iraqis even though the civilians posed no immediate danger.

Sgt. Michael P. Williams, 25, of Memphis, Tenn., and Spc. Brent W. May, 22, of Salem, Ohio, are the second pair of soldiers from the 1st Battalion, 41st Infantry Regiment from Fort Riley, Kan., to face murder charges stemming from separate incidents in August. Williams and May could face the death penalty if convicted.


2 U.S. soldiers accused of executing 2 unarmed Iraqis - SFGate

Great. What does this have to do with Bin Laden? If you think I am going to try and excuse the actions of these two soldiers, you are wrong. This isn't a "one size fits all" argument.

 

[geauxtohell]

Great. Now show me how and where the ROE was violated and you'll have a point.

Even if the ROE was violated, shit happens in combat. That doesn't mean there was "mens rea".

Bin Laden didn't have to have a weapon in his hand to be considered a threat.

Your attempts to link a non sequitur isn't hypocritical. It's just laughable.

I fully agree that ROE's were not violated, for the simple fact of tactics used by Bin Laden and terrorists in general.......The very real scenario of possibly being strapped, or switched for remote detonation of explosives.

They did the right thing.

Think about it for a second it was reported that he was in his sleeping clothes do you actually think he would have had a bomb strapped to him while asleep?

Would you want to find out the hard way that your assumption was wrong?

Welcome to the real world.

 

[geauxtohell]

If it wasn't an Assassination why then didn't they throw his ass in the Second Bird alive instead of dead I would have thought as much as some screamed at the previous administration about insuring he was brought to America for trail in civilian courts he would have been quite the trophy.

Because real life doesn't begin to approximate what you do on your Playstation.

You should direct all tactical second guessing to the appropriate persons. I am sure a response will be forthcoming.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Great. Now show me how and where the ROE was violated and you'll have a point.

Even if the ROE was violated, shit happens in combat. That doesn't mean there was "mens rea".

Bin Laden didn't have to have a weapon in his hand to be considered a threat.

Your attempts to link a non sequitur isn't hypocritical. It's just laughable.

I fully agree that ROE's were not violated, for the simple fact of tactics used by Bin Laden and terrorists in general.......The very real scenario of possibly being strapped, or switched for remote detonation of explosives.

They did the right thing.

Exactly. The "Most Dangerous Course of Action" in my mind would be OBL trying to matyr himself by self detonation to take as many Americans as possible with him and destroy any attempt to take his body and put it on parade. I'd imagine the SEALs (and the rest of the world) didn't realize how much of a fucking coward he'd be at the end. The most likely believed he'd, as he'd insinuated in the past, try and die like a warrior and not a sniveling little bitch.

Anyone that's done CQB realizes it's a high pressure environment. The odds of an unarmed person being shot are pretty high. It's hard enough not to have a fratricide incident.

This is something that some people can't seem to get through their minds.

And you can bet that one of the main topics in Pre-mb was the fact that explosives were likely the main threat, and don't even play around. Take him out on sight.

It seems to me after looking at what we know to this point, Bin Laden was quite comfortable where he was.......Didn't really feel that there was much chance of being found. He had money and phone numbers sewn into his clothes, but as reported today, they have yet to find any evidence of an escape plan.......Which seems to show that the Paki bastards were definitely involved in hiding him. And would probably be the ones to help with his escape if tipped off.

 

[Robert]

If it wasn't an Assassination why then didn't they throw his ass in the Second Bird alive instead of dead I would have thought as much as some screamed at the previous administration about insuring he was brought to America for trail in civilian courts he would have been quite the trophy.

Because real life doesn't begin to approximate what you do on your Playstation.

You should direct all tactical second guessing to the appropriate persons. I am sure a response will be forthcoming.

RUN AWAY RUNAWAY...... Ya gotcha

 

[Wicked Jester]

Great. Now show me how and where the ROE was violated and you'll have a point.

Even if the ROE was violated, shit happens in combat. That doesn't mean there was "mens rea".

Bin Laden didn't have to have a weapon in his hand to be considered a threat.

Your attempts to link a non sequitur isn't hypocritical. It's just laughable.

I fully agree that ROE's were not violated, for the simple fact of tactics used by Bin Laden and terrorists in general.......The very real scenario of possibly being strapped, or switched for remote detonation of explosives.

They did the right thing.

Think about it for a second it was reported that he was in his sleeping clothes do you actually think he would have had a bomb strapped to him while asleep?

His sleeping clothes were standard muslim fare.......Long, baggy, dress style coverall, possibly with baggy pants.......There would be no way to know if he was strapped. Nor would there be anyway to know if he had remote access to placed explosives.

 

[LibocalypseNow]

I can't believe people are still arguing about this stuff. The "Waterboarding" issue was a Left/Democrat concocted scam. It's a non-issue really. That was all about getting their BOOOOOOSH Boogeyman out of there. Yea lets get all outraged over dunking some brutal Terrorist's head in some water. Yea lets do that. Just another political sham in the end. These same Left/Democrats are now the biggest blood-thirsty War Mongers in this country. They get all worked up over "Waterboarding" while at the same time they're bombing & killing Gaddafi's Son & Grandchildren. Or shooting an unarmed man in the face in his home and in front of his children. The Left has always been full of sheet on this. A non-issue for sure.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Do you think they informed KSM that they had several safety nets in place?



The difference is the intended purpose behind the "mind fuck". The purpose behind torture is to extract information. The purpose behind the Ranger School suckage is to train people for combat.

You would think this would be self evident.

They never informed us that they had several safety nets in place, so why inform that scumbag?.....We had no idea one of those standing over us was a physician, or of any limitations.

And, you yourself said that half of torture is mind fuck....So, all those enhanced interrogation methods I mentioned must be a form of at least "half torture", and therefore wrong, correct?

GMAFB

i thought there was an intelligence requirement for SF?

guess i was wrong

Guess you never experienced it, obviously......It's designed to replecate real life. You don't even know at what point it's going to happen. It's done when you are already disoriented.

Get a fuckin' clue.

 

[mal]

Republicans rightly argue that much credit is owed to George W. Bush, who launched an effective war on terror and pursued it with fierce resolve.

For that part also, del?...



peace...

 

[geauxtohell]

And you can bet that one of the main topics in Pre-mb was the fact that explosives were likely the main threat, and don't even play around. Take him out on sight.

I would bet they gave him about .5 seconds to get on the floor.

It seems to me after looking at what we know to this point, Bin Laden was quite comfortable where he was.......Didn't really feel that there was much chance of being found. He had money and phone numbers sewn into his clothes, but as reported today, they have yet to find any evidence of an escape plan.......Which seems to show that the Paki bastards were definitely involved in hiding him. And would probably be the ones to help with his escape if tipped off.

I agree. I think he counted on the ISI to protect him. I think he also counted on our continued stupidity in alerting Pakistan before we made a move.

No telling how many blown operations there were in the past because we did just that.

 

[geauxtohell]

If it wasn't an Assassination why then didn't they throw his ass in the Second Bird alive instead of dead I would have thought as much as some screamed at the previous administration about insuring he was brought to America for trail in civilian courts he would have been quite the trophy.

Because real life doesn't begin to approximate what you do on your Playstation.

You should direct all tactical second guessing to the appropriate persons. I am sure a response will be forthcoming.

RUN AWAY RUNAWAY...... Ya gotcha

The truth hurts, doesn't it skippy?

Again, your questions should be directed to the trigger pullers.

I am sure you would have done a much better job.

Other than that, unless the order given by Obama was to shoot on sight, then your point is really no point at all.

 

[Wicked Jester]

And you can bet that one of the main topics in Pre-mb was the fact that explosives were likely the main threat, and don't even play around. Take him out on sight.

I would bet they gave him about .5 seconds to get on the floor.

It seems to me after looking at what we know to this point, Bin Laden was quite comfortable where he was.......Didn't really feel that there was much chance of being found. He had money and phone numbers sewn into his clothes, but as reported today, they have yet to find any evidence of an escape plan.......Which seems to show that the Paki bastards were definitely involved in hiding him. And would probably be the ones to help with his escape if tipped off.

I agree. I think he counted on the ISI to protect him. I think he also counted on our continued stupidity in alerting Pakistan before we made a move.

No telling how many blown operations there were in the past because we did just that.

I'm quite sure ISI told him to just sit back and relax. Let us worry about getting you out of here if necessary. We'll know when the shit's going down, take a load off, relaaaaaaax!

Bastards!

 

[Valerie]

Great. Now show me how and where the ROE was violated and you'll have a point.

Even if the ROE was violated, shit happens in combat. That doesn't mean there was "mens rea".

Bin Laden didn't have to have a weapon in his hand to be considered a threat.

Your attempts to link a non sequitur isn't hypocritical. It's just laughable.

I fully agree that ROE's were not violated, for the simple fact of tactics used by Bin Laden and terrorists in general.......The very real scenario of possibly being strapped, or switched for remote detonation of explosives.

They did the right thing.

Think about it for a second it was reported that he was in his sleeping clothes do you actually think he would have had a bomb strapped to him while asleep?

Polly wanna cracker................?

 

[Liability]

If the President gave explicit and unambiguous direct orders to kill Osama bin Laden on sight, I have absolutely NO problem with it.

 

[Robert]

If the President gave explicit and unambiguous direct orders to kill Osama bin Laden on sight, I have absolutely NO problem with it.

I doubt anyone does.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Here's an example of rules of engagment.
2004-12-07 04:00:00 PST Baghdad -- U.S. military prosecutors alleged Monday that American soldiers shot to death two unarmed Iraqi men in their homes, then tried to cover up their crimes by claiming that the Iraqis had reached for guns.

In chilling detail, the prosecutors and other U.S. soldiers described in a makeshift courtroom here how the two accused U.S. servicemen casually executed the Iraqis even though the civilians posed no immediate danger.

Sgt. Michael P. Williams, 25, of Memphis, Tenn., and Spc. Brent W. May, 22, of Salem, Ohio, are the second pair of soldiers from the 1st Battalion, 41st Infantry Regiment from Fort Riley, Kan., to face murder charges stemming from separate incidents in August. Williams and May could face the death penalty if convicted.


2 U.S. soldiers accused of executing 2 unarmed Iraqis - SFGate

Great. What does this have to do with Bin Laden? If you think I am going to try and excuse the actions of these two soldiers, you are wrong. This isn't a "one size fits all" argument.

Williams and May could face the death penalty if convicted.

They also have a reason for an aquital.

 

[Foxfyre]

The current administration did act on intelligence that was obtained by President Bush.


In my my book, some things go way beyond politics... I think it's sad some people have such little faith in the intentions of their fellow Americans...

I wasn't talking about how the intelligence gained was used though Val. I was referring to the posts regarding water boarding for ANY reason. The point is because the Bush Administration allowed it, they are still scum despite the results re bin Laden. It still violated international law and never should have been used, yadda yadda.

However, if the enhanced interrogation had been authorized under Obama with the same results, the same people trashing Bush and waterboarding would now be looking for ways to defend it.

And most of those condemning water boarding won't discuss any remote reason to deviate from a no-waterboarding standard policy.

And perhaps I am second guessing some folks here, but it comes from long experience and observation of this kind of phenomenon over a lot of years now. It has become pretty predictable.

America is still in a situation where we are being threatened with a potential crisis situation where hundreds or thousands of innocent lives could be lost...


The author of the article is not a "lefty", del is not a "lefty", the US Military JAGS, Colin Powell, not "lefties"... This is not a matter of left/right politics, but a matter of long standing American principles, that is the entire point of the OP, so I'm not sure why you imagine lefties should come in here and speculate about hypotheticals which would justify torture...???

I wasn't referring to the article in the OP, however, when I made my observation. And yes, it was an ad hominem observation, but it is an honest observation just the same. The degree of 'terribleness' of any controversial activity is too often determined by which political party, religion, group, person etc. does it. It was based on long experience with a pronounced double standard too often applied based on ideology or political party or sociopolitical leanings.

Old Rocks negs me because he says I am advocating torture which I have not done at any time in any fashion. I have been clear that that our national policy is and should be that cruel and inhumane treatment is neither condoned nor utliized. I have been clear that I will condemn any enhanced interrogation used to find out whether or if somebody knows something useful. And I certainly will strongly consign to hell those who would do that for their amusement.

Nor have I bashed the left or liberals in this discussion but rather only observed the usual M.O. (actually from both sides) that an action is usually condoned or condemned according to who does it. At least that was my intent.

And I have observed that almost nobody is willing to even consider whether that secret agent was justified in shooting off that toe, or whether one would of necessity look the other way should enhanced interrogation be utilized in a matter in which hundreds or thousands of innocent lives were in imminent danger.

For me, intellectual honesty includes what may be necessary as well as what must be policy.

 

[bodecea]

Your points being training is far different then the real thing I agree

Your points about UBL being killed I disagree the Seals had taken the compound they found UBL apparently unarmed hiding behind his wife they double tapped his ass I don't have a problem with that but we all know it was purely an assassination nothing more nothing less and it was done by our CINC.

I don't have an issue with UBL death I have even less of an issue with having used "waterboarding" to gain the information to find him.

On this issue nobody has the moral High ground but then as I have said we did what we needed to do why the left continues to push that Torture is bad but shooting an Old unarmed man is good is completely beyond me.

American service men aren't assassins and this wasn't a fucking "assassination".

Pull your head out of your ass.

If it wasn't an Assassination why then didn't they throw his ass in the Second Bird alive instead of dead I would have thought as much as some screamed at the previous administration about insuring he was brought to America for trail in civilian courts he would have been quite the trophy.

Armchair quarterbacks are SOOOOO tough. So, tell us. Why are you second'guessing the SEALS' ROE?