A few questions for the fundies

[Fort Fun Indiana]

that someone with greater authority than you can do what you cannot

Nope, sorry, still not making sense. Any of us can kill babies , if we really want to do so.

If you saw your neighbor kill someone and you went next door, grabbed him and confined him to a room in your basement, then after a while injected him with poison that killed him, would you get in trouble?

Yet there are people who are authorized to do just that. Seize your neighbor, confine him and ultimately kill him.

Do you see it now?

Nope, still a stupid comparison. That person is being punished under rule of laws that are reason-based. No such thing can be said for a baby.

But see, thats where we diverge...you think even the tiniest, most innocent baby is an inherently evil creature that must be punished. Your beliefs are immoral and, frankly, inhuman and nauseating.

 

[hadit]

The child thinks his parents are evil when they don't let him have a lollypop.

Not a good comparison....the child would not think that, if he understood reason. And, as it turns out, sometimes children can be reasoned with. You are demanding the opposite: SUSPENSION of reason and incredulity.

A more apt comparison would be to point to a child who understands that what his parents did was evil when they murdered the neighbor's baby, and then was asked to suspend his morality, reason and incredulity because "his parents have authority to do things he does not".

Nice try.

You do grasp the concept, yes? Or do you want to quibble over semantics?

 

[hadit]

Now you're just being absurdly literal to avoid the truth of what I'm saying. You know exactly what I'm saying and you know it's true.

What I know to be true is that you can't find a proper analogy.

You're refusing to acknowledge the bottom line, which is that the Creator has authority and responsibility that you do not. You're quibbling over semantics.

You said that before, but now you're giving up trying to provide a proper explanation of why this is so? Do you know for sure that the creator doesn't have a superior? You have some bad analogies for that?

You will simply reject any explanation, as demonstrated by your deliberate refusal to acknowledge that someone with greater authority than you can do what you cannot. Until you do that, you will get nowhere.

I've already agreed that there are people with greater authority than me. But they are still answerable to me. Like Trump, if I don'y like what he does, I can vote against him and help defeat him. You haven't shown that god isn't answerable to me or possible someone above him. If I don't like what your picture of god is with the bible and all that, I'll simply not believe in that god, which in a very minority position anyways. So god IS answerable to me.

Plus whatever Fort says.

You've taken a first, very small step. Now you need to move beyond your limited thought that the God who created man is somehow accountable to His creation. You can pretend to not believe all you want, but ultimately you'll answer to Him. Then you can try to reason that He should answer to you.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You do grasp the concept, yes?

Yes, I grasp the concept:

You cannot use any rational argument, moral , ethical , or otherwise, to justify the evil and immoral behavior of your gods. So instead, you simple demand suspension of incredulity and fealty.

 

[hadit]

I know that what He created was perfect. You get punished because you are guilty as well.

So the baby that's born severely deformed and retarded is guilty of what exactly? And you call that perfect?

Do you even read what I write before erupting emotionally? What God created was perfect until we messed it up. I'll type this slowly. That means it's no longer perfect.

if what G-d created is perfect than what is done with what he created has to be what He intended.

can't have it both ways

He knew what we were going to do, yes. To say that is what He intended is to pretend to know the mind of God.

You JUST said "He knew what we were going to do, yes". So YOU know the mind of god?

Or is it that "To say that is what He intended is to pretend to know the mind of God"?

Which is it?

We know what He tells us, and He tells us He knew from the beginning what He was going to do to redeem mankind, so yes, we know that He knew we were going to fall.

 

[hadit]

that someone with greater authority than you can do what you cannot

Nope, sorry, still not making sense. Any of us can kill babies , if we really want to do so.

If you saw your neighbor kill someone and you went next door, grabbed him and confined him to a room in your basement, then after a while injected him with poison that killed him, would you get in trouble?

Yet there are people who are authorized to do just that. Seize your neighbor, confine him and ultimately kill him.

Do you see it now?

Nope, still a stupid comparison. That person is being punished under rule of laws that are reason-based. No such thing can be said for a baby.

But see, thats where we diverge...you think even the tiniest, most innocent baby is an inherently evil creature that must be punished. Your beliefs are immoral and, frankly, inhuman and nauseating.

Now you're attempting to place your thoughts on me. That is called projection, and not a worthy discussion tactic. The truth is, this world is corrupt and we're all born into it, thus we suffer from the corruption.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

that someone with greater authority than you can do what you cannot

Nope, sorry, still not making sense. Any of us can kill babies , if we really want to do so.

If you saw your neighbor kill someone and you went next door, grabbed him and confined him to a room in your basement, then after a while injected him with poison that killed him, would you get in trouble?

Yet there are people who are authorized to do just that. Seize your neighbor, confine him and ultimately kill him.

Do you see it now?

Nope, still a stupid comparison. That person is being punished under rule of laws that are reason-based. No such thing can be said for a baby.

But see, thats where we diverge...you think even the tiniest, most innocent baby is an inherently evil creature that must be punished. Your beliefs are immoral and, frankly, inhuman and nauseating.

Now you're attempting to place your thoughts on me. That is called projection, and not a worthy discussion tactic. The truth is, this world is corrupt and we're all born into it, thus we suffer from the corruption.

Which part was projection, exactly? You dispute my claim....and then confirm it in literally the next sentence. To say a baby, or an innocent child shares in the BLAME for that corruption is immoral, inhuman, and nauseating . And that IS your belief. That's disgusting. And you would agree, in any other context. But your faith warps your judgment, in this context.

 

[hadit]

You do grasp the concept, yes?

Yes, I grasp the concept:

You cannot use any rational argument, moral , ethical , or otherwise, to justify the evil and immoral behavior of your gods. So instead, you simple demand suspension of incredulity and fealty.

On the one hand you say you grasp the concept, but on the other continue to attempt to place God into your limited understanding. The only way to do that is to insist that you can understand everything He does and knows, which makes you His equal. You are not.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You do grasp the concept, yes?

Yes, I grasp the concept:

You cannot use any rational argument, moral , ethical , or otherwise, to justify the evil and immoral behavior of your gods. So instead, you simple demand suspension of incredulity and fealty.

On the one hand you say you grasp the concept, but on the other continue to attempt to place God into your limited understanding. The only way to do that is to insist that you can understand everything He does and knows, which makes you His equal. You are not.

100% incorrect. I am speaking directly to behaviors that are clearly evil and immoral. The only response you can muster is, "you just dont get it". Sorry, that's not only a terribly lazy response and not compelling in the least, it's the height of dishonesty for you to pretend that you DO understand.

 

[hadit]

You do grasp the concept, yes?

Yes, I grasp the concept:

You cannot use any rational argument, moral , ethical , or otherwise, to justify the evil and immoral behavior of your gods. So instead, you simple demand suspension of incredulity and fealty.

On the one hand you say you grasp the concept, but on the other continue to attempt to place God into your limited understanding. The only way to do that is to insist that you can understand everything He does and knows, which makes you His equal. You are not.

100% incorrect. I am speaking directly to behaviors that are clearly evil and immoral. The only response you can muster is, "you just dont get it". Sorry, that's not only a terribly lazy response and not compelling in the least, it's the height of dishonesty for you to pretend that you DO understand.

I do not understand God's motivation other than He will not forever tolerate sin and rebellion.

 

[hadit]

that someone with greater authority than you can do what you cannot

Nope, sorry, still not making sense. Any of us can kill babies , if we really want to do so.

If you saw your neighbor kill someone and you went next door, grabbed him and confined him to a room in your basement, then after a while injected him with poison that killed him, would you get in trouble?

Yet there are people who are authorized to do just that. Seize your neighbor, confine him and ultimately kill him.

Do you see it now?

Nope, still a stupid comparison. That person is being punished under rule of laws that are reason-based. No such thing can be said for a baby.

But see, thats where we diverge...you think even the tiniest, most innocent baby is an inherently evil creature that must be punished. Your beliefs are immoral and, frankly, inhuman and nauseating.

Now you're attempting to place your thoughts on me. That is called projection, and not a worthy discussion tactic. The truth is, this world is corrupt and we're all born into it, thus we suffer from the corruption.

Which part was projection, exactly? You dispute my claim....and then confirm it in literally the next sentence. To say a baby, or an innocent child shares in the BLAME for that corruption is immoral, inhuman, and nauseating . And that IS your belief. That's disgusting. And you would agree, in any other context. But your faith warps your judgment, in this context.

To ignore the consequences of sin is to make it of no importance.

 

[Taz]

You've just been arguing that the stories in the bible aren't real. That means "fictional". Or else clear up your position, you can't have it both ways.

I did not say they were not real. I said the accounts are stories. Back in that time, no newspapers, no encyclopedias, no text books, no internet. They had stories, some of which are now recorded.

My position: When I was little we used to visit Reservations in our area. The natives of that area made us welcome and shared their heritage with us. There were places on the Reservation that were entirely off limits, Holy Ground, sacred to the natives. We were taught no to stomp on another's Holy Ground.

The Bible is the Christian's Holy Ground. People should no more stomp on Christian (or Jewish) Holy Ground than they should enter a Reservation and stomp on Holy Ground of that place.

I am a Christian. The Bible is my Holy Ground. I am wondering why outsiders have the desire, or a need, to stomp all over it.

Ya, but you're saying "I did not say they were not real. I said the accounts are stories." So you think the stories are real.

As for stomping on the bible, I'm trying to understand why they would write about a murdering, raping god or orders people to kill their children... if they are trying to convey a overall message of goodness... No stomping necessary. You see stomping because I hit right to the core of the bible, and that makes you feel really uncomfortable, and it shakes up your fantasy world a little too much.

 

[Taz]

What I know to be true is that you can't find a proper analogy.

You're refusing to acknowledge the bottom line, which is that the Creator has authority and responsibility that you do not. You're quibbling over semantics.

You said that before, but now you're giving up trying to provide a proper explanation of why this is so? Do you know for sure that the creator doesn't have a superior? You have some bad analogies for that?

You will simply reject any explanation, as demonstrated by your deliberate refusal to acknowledge that someone with greater authority than you can do what you cannot. Until you do that, you will get nowhere.

I've already agreed that there are people with greater authority than me. But they are still answerable to me. Like Trump, if I don'y like what he does, I can vote against him and help defeat him. You haven't shown that god isn't answerable to me or possible someone above him. If I don't like what your picture of god is with the bible and all that, I'll simply not believe in that god, which in a very minority position anyways. So god IS answerable to me.

Plus whatever Fort says.

You've taken a first, very small step. Now you need to move beyond your limited thought that the God who created man is somehow accountable to His creation. You can pretend to not believe all you want, but ultimately you'll answer to Him. Then you can try to reason that He should answer to you.

I've already answered him, I laughed and told him that a murdering, raping god was not something that I could believe really exists, so POOF, he's gone. After this, there are no more repercussions from the god of the bible, because ultimately, it only exists if you let it exist and dominate you. And now it has no power over me.

 

[Taz]

So the baby that's born severely deformed and retarded is guilty of what exactly? And you call that perfect?

Do you even read what I write before erupting emotionally? What God created was perfect until we messed it up. I'll type this slowly. That means it's no longer perfect.

if what G-d created is perfect than what is done with what he created has to be what He intended.

can't have it both ways

He knew what we were going to do, yes. To say that is what He intended is to pretend to know the mind of God.

You JUST said "He knew what we were going to do, yes". So YOU know the mind of god?

Or is it that "To say that is what He intended is to pretend to know the mind of God"?

Which is it?

We know what He tells us, and He tells us He knew from the beginning what He was going to do to redeem mankind, so yes, we know that He knew we were going to fall.

You only know about god what you read in the bible, which is a book of fiction, especially when it comes to what an invisible superbeing might have said. It's pretty crazy stuff that a seemingly sensible adult would believe any of that nonsense without a single shred of real proof. That's what really fascinates me the most, I think.

 

[hadit]

You're refusing to acknowledge the bottom line, which is that the Creator has authority and responsibility that you do not. You're quibbling over semantics.

You said that before, but now you're giving up trying to provide a proper explanation of why this is so? Do you know for sure that the creator doesn't have a superior? You have some bad analogies for that?

You will simply reject any explanation, as demonstrated by your deliberate refusal to acknowledge that someone with greater authority than you can do what you cannot. Until you do that, you will get nowhere.

I've already agreed that there are people with greater authority than me. But they are still answerable to me. Like Trump, if I don'y like what he does, I can vote against him and help defeat him. You haven't shown that god isn't answerable to me or possible someone above him. If I don't like what your picture of god is with the bible and all that, I'll simply not believe in that god, which in a very minority position anyways. So god IS answerable to me.

Plus whatever Fort says.

You've taken a first, very small step. Now you need to move beyond your limited thought that the God who created man is somehow accountable to His creation. You can pretend to not believe all you want, but ultimately you'll answer to Him. Then you can try to reason that He should answer to you.

I've already answered him, I laughed and told him that a murdering, raping god was not something that I could believe really exists, so POOF, he's gone. After this, there are no more repercussions from the god of the bible, because ultimately, it only exists if you let it exist and dominate you. And now it has no power over me.

You'll find out.

 

[hadit]

Do you even read what I write before erupting emotionally? What God created was perfect until we messed it up. I'll type this slowly. That means it's no longer perfect.

if what G-d created is perfect than what is done with what he created has to be what He intended.

can't have it both ways

He knew what we were going to do, yes. To say that is what He intended is to pretend to know the mind of God.

You JUST said "He knew what we were going to do, yes". So YOU know the mind of god?

Or is it that "To say that is what He intended is to pretend to know the mind of God"?

Which is it?

We know what He tells us, and He tells us He knew from the beginning what He was going to do to redeem mankind, so yes, we know that He knew we were going to fall.

You only know about god what you read in the bible, which is a book of fiction, especially when it comes to what an invisible superbeing might have said. It's pretty crazy stuff that a seemingly sensible adult would believe any of that nonsense without a single shred of real proof. That's what really fascinates me the most, I think.

It fascinates me that you spent so much time and effort claiming you have power and authority over someone you claim you don't believe in.

 

[Taz]

You said that before, but now you're giving up trying to provide a proper explanation of why this is so? Do you know for sure that the creator doesn't have a superior? You have some bad analogies for that?

You will simply reject any explanation, as demonstrated by your deliberate refusal to acknowledge that someone with greater authority than you can do what you cannot. Until you do that, you will get nowhere.

I've already agreed that there are people with greater authority than me. But they are still answerable to me. Like Trump, if I don'y like what he does, I can vote against him and help defeat him. You haven't shown that god isn't answerable to me or possible someone above him. If I don't like what your picture of god is with the bible and all that, I'll simply not believe in that god, which in a very minority position anyways. So god IS answerable to me.

Plus whatever Fort says.

You've taken a first, very small step. Now you need to move beyond your limited thought that the God who created man is somehow accountable to His creation. You can pretend to not believe all you want, but ultimately you'll answer to Him. Then you can try to reason that He should answer to you.

I've already answered him, I laughed and told him that a murdering, raping god was not something that I could believe really exists, so POOF, he's gone. After this, there are no more repercussions from the god of the bible, because ultimately, it only exists if you let it exist and dominate you. And now it has no power over me.

You'll find out.

I think it's more like YOU'LL find out that it was all a myth. Anyways, we're all going to the same place when we die.

And anyways, if I get judged by god's standards, I'm good to go. We all are.

 

[Taz]

if what G-d created is perfect than what is done with what he created has to be what He intended.

can't have it both ways

He knew what we were going to do, yes. To say that is what He intended is to pretend to know the mind of God.

You JUST said "He knew what we were going to do, yes". So YOU know the mind of god?

Or is it that "To say that is what He intended is to pretend to know the mind of God"?

Which is it?

We know what He tells us, and He tells us He knew from the beginning what He was going to do to redeem mankind, so yes, we know that He knew we were going to fall.

You only know about god what you read in the bible, which is a book of fiction, especially when it comes to what an invisible superbeing might have said. It's pretty crazy stuff that a seemingly sensible adult would believe any of that nonsense without a single shred of real proof. That's what really fascinates me the most, I think.

It fascinates me that you spent so much time and effort claiming you have power and authority over someone you claim you don't believe in.

Well, that's my point, how can something I don't believe in (and for which there is no solid proof), have power over me? It can only have power over me if i believe that it can, like you. You've trapped yourself in something that deep down you know there's no real proof for, so no god is doing anything to you, you're doing it to yourself.

 

[hadit]

You will simply reject any explanation, as demonstrated by your deliberate refusal to acknowledge that someone with greater authority than you can do what you cannot. Until you do that, you will get nowhere.

I've already agreed that there are people with greater authority than me. But they are still answerable to me. Like Trump, if I don'y like what he does, I can vote against him and help defeat him. You haven't shown that god isn't answerable to me or possible someone above him. If I don't like what your picture of god is with the bible and all that, I'll simply not believe in that god, which in a very minority position anyways. So god IS answerable to me.

Plus whatever Fort says.

You've taken a first, very small step. Now you need to move beyond your limited thought that the God who created man is somehow accountable to His creation. You can pretend to not believe all you want, but ultimately you'll answer to Him. Then you can try to reason that He should answer to you.

I've already answered him, I laughed and told him that a murdering, raping god was not something that I could believe really exists, so POOF, he's gone. After this, there are no more repercussions from the god of the bible, because ultimately, it only exists if you let it exist and dominate you. And now it has no power over me.

You'll find out.

I think it's more like YOU'LL find out that it was all a myth. Anyways, we're all going to the same place when we die.

And anyways, if I get judged by god's standards, I'm good to go. We all are.

Keep believing that. It won't help, but I'm sure you'll be able to convince Him that you have authority to judge Him. Just keep denying that He exists.

 

[hadit]

He knew what we were going to do, yes. To say that is what He intended is to pretend to know the mind of God.

You JUST said "He knew what we were going to do, yes". So YOU know the mind of god?

Or is it that "To say that is what He intended is to pretend to know the mind of God"?

Which is it?

We know what He tells us, and He tells us He knew from the beginning what He was going to do to redeem mankind, so yes, we know that He knew we were going to fall.

You only know about god what you read in the bible, which is a book of fiction, especially when it comes to what an invisible superbeing might have said. It's pretty crazy stuff that a seemingly sensible adult would believe any of that nonsense without a single shred of real proof. That's what really fascinates me the most, I think.

It fascinates me that you spent so much time and effort claiming you have power and authority over someone you claim you don't believe in.

Well, that's my point, how can something I don't believe in (and for which there is no solid proof), have power over me? It can only have power over me if i believe that it can, like you. You've trapped yourself in something that deep down you know there's no real proof for, so no god is doing anything to you, you're doing it to yourself.

On the contrary, your very insistence on this tells me that you're not as certain about your belief as you let on. If you were that certain, you wouldn't be trying to argue that you have standing to hold God accountable.