"A free thinker is Satan's slave"

[koshergrl]

Yeah. Bullshit, liar.

Continue lying, it's the only way you can make your ridiculous case for state-sponsored atheism.

 

[koshergrl]

 

[koshergrl]

 

[Dr.Drock]

Lol you're absolutely adorable. Like a little kitten playing with yarn! Same level of intellect too.

I don't want any religious beliefs sponsored by gov't, yours, mine, or Scooby Doo's. If you want to build a million churches across America who spread your loving ideas of bigotry, evolution is a tool of Satan, and how everyone who disagrees with you is a disciple of Hitler, I want you to have that freedom.

However your hero Fred Phelps seems to have beat you to it.

 

[Montrovant]

Yeah. Bullshit, liar.

Continue lying, it's the only way you can make your ridiculous case for state-sponsored atheism.

So now it's trying to make a case for state-sponsored atheism? I'm sorry, but I don't recall seeing that.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Yeah. Bullshit, liar.

Continue lying, it's the only way you can make your ridiculous case for state-sponsored atheism.

So now it's trying to make a case for state-sponsored atheism? I'm sorry, but I don't recall seeing that.

One of the voices in her head said that. Sadly I guess I'm responsible for one of them. If I had more control I'd say "go grab a cookie, that'll make you happy for a little bit!"

 

[koshergrl]

And you claimed Logical had deviated from the topic, too.

This is what atheists (particularly atheists who hide themselves behind the term *free thinkers*) do...they lie when the subject matter becomes too intense and truthful.

Like pretending we have no atheist communities to compare to Christian communities. What a crock. We have immense atheist communities to compare to our Christian ones. They live in China, in Cambodia, in North Korea, in Cuba, in Russia, in Czechoslavakia, in Albania. They had brief but spectacular bursts in revolutionary France and Mexico.

But of course you will pretend those don't count.

When you propose the state shut down the free practice of religion, when you propose that religious people be barred from participating in politics, you are promoting state-sponsored atheism.

When you lie about how much more advanced imaginary atheist communities are than Christian ones, you invite the comparison...which you then say doesn't exist...

 

[Dr.Drock]

And you claimed Logical had deviated from the topic, too.

This is what atheists (particularly atheists who hide themselves behind the term *free thinkers*) do...they lie when the subject matter becomes too intense and truthful.

Like pretending we have no atheist communities to compare to Christian communities. What a crock. We have immense atheist communities to compare to our Christian ones. They live in China, in Cambodia, in North Korea, in Cuba, in Russia, in Czechoslavakia, in Albania. They had brief but spectacular bursts in revolutionary France and Mexico.

But of course you will pretend those don't count.

When you propose the state shut down the free practice of religion, when you propose that religious people be barred from participating in politics, you are promoting state-sponsored atheism.

When you lie about how much more advanced imaginary atheist communities are than Christian ones, you invite the comparison...which you then say doesn't exist...

There have been atheist communities, there have been communities of every belief and non belief, all have instances of going well and going badly.

The only person I vote for, Ron Paul, is even more fundamentalist than you are. The greatest american in the history of this country imo, MLK Jr, was even more fundamentalist than you are.

I've never said atheist communities are more advanced than christian ones, if you can support that particular lie (which you've never been able to support your ever-growing list of lies in the past) than I'll concede.

Ready...............set....................GO!

 

[Uncensored2008]

WTF are you talking about? When did this become about the founding of the country?

Whether this country has prospered beyond any civilization to date is open to argument. There have been nations that lasted longer, covered more area, etc. in the past. While this is my personal favorite, it could easily be argued that many of the great empires were more prosperous.

Not with integrity, it couldn't.

Look, I realize that there is a great rewrite of history to diminish America and the concepts of liberty, underway.

I realize that history is being fabricated so that the Cherokee had a written language and democratic government, despite there being no physical, fossil, or eye witness evidence to support this, in fact the evidence proves the opposite.

No, we take a desired result, and fabricate a new history to support it. Thus your claim of "more prosperous" nations. Also cute how you lump the USA as an Empire. Fair enough, you have a result of a diminished America and the irrelevance of liberty to support, history will be fabricated to support the result.

Also, it seems you are saying that non-Christians in this country's past did not work hard, form communities, build churches, schools, hospitals, and staff them. That's right, the history of this country is one of Christians working hard and everyone else doing nothing!

Which non-Christian communities do you most admire in 19th century America?

The more I talk with you, the more you seem to be saying that Christians are good and everyone else is bad. If that is the way you look at the world, there's really no point talking to you.

Is your fabrication of history based on your anti-Christian prejudice?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Yep perfectly possible, now if you could let me borrow a few million dollars to get this off the ground, I'd appreciate it.

Hey, Obama funded Solyndra, no reason he wouldn't funnel a few hundred million to this. Just donate to his election fund and it can all be yours.

You know it's impossible, just walk off with your invisible winner's crown and be happy with it.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Yep perfectly possible, now if you could let me borrow a few million dollars to get this off the ground, I'd appreciate it.

Hey, Obama funded Solyndra, no reason he wouldn't funnel a few hundred million to this. Just donate to his election fund and it can all be yours.

You know it's impossible, just walk off with your invisible winner's crown and be happy with it.

I dunno, Gore seems to have the scamming business mastered a little better, I'll get ahold of him first .

 

[ABikerSailor]

And you claimed Logical had deviated from the topic, too.

This is what atheists (particularly atheists who hide themselves behind the term *free thinkers*) do...they lie when the subject matter becomes too intense and truthful.

Like pretending we have no atheist communities to compare to Christian communities. What a crock. We have immense atheist communities to compare to our Christian ones. They live in China, in Cambodia, in North Korea, in Cuba, in Russia, in Czechoslavakia, in Albania. They had brief but spectacular bursts in revolutionary France and Mexico.

But of course you will pretend those don't count.

When you propose the state shut down the free practice of religion, when you propose that religious people be barred from participating in politics, you are promoting state-sponsored atheism.

When you lie about how much more advanced imaginary atheist communities are than Christian ones, you invite the comparison...which you then say doesn't exist...

Actually, during the time of Copernicus and Galileo (2 free thinkers who said that the Earth revolves around the Sun), they were persecuted for their study by the Christian community of the Church because what they said was heresey against what the Church taught, which was that the Sun revolved around the Earth.

So, exactly how tolerant was the Church then? Did they uphold the values of liberty? How about knowledge? Freedom? Because what the church did was to keep them under house arrest.

Oh yeah............during that time, a group of free thinkers formed a group called the Illuminati which was a group of scientists and astrologers who met in secret to compare notes, because if they did it in public, they'd be persecuted by the Church.

And then...........we can talk about Torquemada and the Inquisition if you like.

 

[koshergrl]

Hmmm....2 guys (were they executed?) vs. the millions killed in anti-religious regimes.

Well done, retard.

 

[koshergrl]

And how many years ago?

And did they not develop their theories under Christian rule?

 

[koshergrl]

In fact, Copernicus was educated in the church, and a good thing, too:

"Through his uncle, Lukas Watzenrode (1447-1512), who later became the bishop of Varmia (Ermland), he was elected a canon of the cathedral chapter of Frombork (Frauenburg). As part of his requirement as a canon, he matriculated in 1496 in the University of Bologna to study both canon and civil law. There, he lodged with and worked as an assistant to Domenico Maria the Ferrarese of Novara (1454-1504), professor of mathematics and astrology and also the official compiler of prognostications for the university.
After briefly returning to Frombork, Copernicus studied medicine at the University of Padua (1501-3) and then moved on to the University of Ferrara where he obtained a doctorate in Canon Law (1503). He then returned to Varmia, where he was based for the rest of his life. He acted as medical advisor and secretary to his uncle at Heilsberg, and was later heavily involved with the administrative tasks in the diocese of Frombork. "

I'm trying to figure out where, exactly, copernicus was "persecuted". In fact, the Church seems to have been responsible for his fame:

"By the 1530s, Copernicus's reputation as a skilled mathematician had even reached the ears of the Pope. A professor of mathematics at the University of Wittenberg, Georg Joachim Rheticus (1514-1574) who was on a tour of visiting distinguished scholars, visited Copernicus in 1539. Copernicus shared his ideas with him, and Rheticus published the Narratio Prima (First Report on the Books of Revolution) in 1540 at Gdansk, in which he reported Copernicus' heliostatic theory in an astrological framework: the changing fortunes of the kingdom of the world, according to Rheticus, depended on the changing eccentricity of the sun. Following the favourable reception of the Narratio Prima, Rheticus persuaded Copernicus to publish a full account. This, of course, became the De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium (On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres), published in March 1543 at Nuremberg. Copernicus died two months later. "

In this, as in all things, gaybiker, you appear to know nothing. I think the less you know, the more likely you are to opine about things.

Starry Messenger: Copernicus: Biography

 

[koshergrl]

Let's see how Galileo was "persecuted" by the church..

Though I think you have confused "persecution" with "elevation". Could happen to anyone:

Oh look, another brilliant mind who probably wouldn't have been so *brilliant* if it weren't for the *persecution* (also know as *support*) of the Church:

"Once he was old enough to be educated in a monastery, his parents sent him to the Camaldolese Monastery at Vallombrosa which is situated on a magnificent forested hillside 33 km southeast of Florence. The Camaldolese Order was independent of the Benedictine Order, splitting from it in about 1012. The Order combined the solitary life of the hermit with the strict life of the monk and soon the young Galileo found this life an attractive one. He became a novice, intending to join the Order, but this did not please his father who had already decided that his eldest son should become a medical doctor.
Vincenzo had Galileo return from Vallombrosa to Florence and give up the idea of joining the Camaldolese order. He did continue his schooling in Florence, however, in a school run by the Camaldolese monks. In 1581 Vincenzo sent Galileo back to Pisa to live again with Muzio Tedaldi and now to enrol for a medical degree at the University of Pisa."

He seems to have enjoyed a close relationship with the Pope and dedicated one of his books to him:

"Galileo was forbidden to hold Copernican views but later events made him less concerned about this decision of the Inquisition. Most importantly Maffeo Barberini, who was an admirer of Galileo, was elected as Pope Urban VIII. This happened just as Galileo's book Il saggiatore (The Assayer) was about to be published by the Accademia dei Lincei in 1623 and Galileo was quick to dedicate this work to the new Pope."

"Pope Urban VIII invited Galileo to papal audiences on six occasions and led Galileo to believe that the Catholic Church would not make an issue of the Copernican theory. Galileo, therefore, decided to publish his views believing that he could do so without serious consequences from the Church. "

Wow, some serious persecution going on there. Perhaps when you say "persecution" you really mean "favoritism"?

Omg, he was persecuted by being allowed to live at home and continue writing! Horrors!

"

Found guilty, Galileo was condemned to lifelong imprisonment, but the sentence was carried out somewhat sympathetically and it amounted to house arrest rather than a prison sentence. He was able to live first with the Archbishop of Siena, then later to return to his home in Arcetri, near Florence, but had to spend the rest of his life watched over by officers from the Inquisition. In 1634 he suffered a severe blow when his daughter Virginia, Sister Maria Celeste, died. She had been a great support to her father through his illnesses and Galileo was shattered and could not work for many months. When he did manage to restart work, he began to write Discourses and mathematical demonstrations concerning the two new sciences. After Galileo had completed work on the Discourses it was smuggled out of Italy, and taken to Leyden in Holland where it was published. It was his most rigorous mathematical work which treated problems on impetus, moments, and centres of gravity. Much of this work went back to the unpublished ideas in De Motu from around 1590 and the improvements which he had worked out during 1602-1604."

Galileo biography

 

[Montrovant]

And you claimed Logical had deviated from the topic, too.

This is what atheists (particularly atheists who hide themselves behind the term *free thinkers*) do...they lie when the subject matter becomes too intense and truthful.

Like pretending we have no atheist communities to compare to Christian communities. What a crock. We have immense atheist communities to compare to our Christian ones. They live in China, in Cambodia, in North Korea, in Cuba, in Russia, in Czechoslavakia, in Albania. They had brief but spectacular bursts in revolutionary France and Mexico.

But of course you will pretend those don't count.

When you propose the state shut down the free practice of religion, when you propose that religious people be barred from participating in politics, you are promoting state-sponsored atheism.

When you lie about how much more advanced imaginary atheist communities are than Christian ones, you invite the comparison...which you then say doesn't exist...

Is this directed at me? Because I was having a short back and forth discussion with logical, and that's the only thing I questioned the relevance of his founding of the US comment to, not the thread in general.

If this wasn't directed at me, just ignore this post!

 

[Montrovant]

WTF are you talking about? When did this become about the founding of the country?

Whether this country has prospered beyond any civilization to date is open to argument. There have been nations that lasted longer, covered more area, etc. in the past. While this is my personal favorite, it could easily be argued that many of the great empires were more prosperous.

Not with integrity, it couldn't.

Look, I realize that there is a great rewrite of history to diminish America and the concepts of liberty, underway.

I realize that history is being fabricated so that the Cherokee had a written language and democratic government, despite there being no physical, fossil, or eye witness evidence to support this, in fact the evidence proves the opposite.

No, we take a desired result, and fabricate a new history to support it. Thus your claim of "more prosperous" nations. Also cute how you lump the USA as an Empire. Fair enough, you have a result of a diminished America and the irrelevance of liberty to support, history will be fabricated to support the result.

Also, it seems you are saying that non-Christians in this country's past did not work hard, form communities, build churches, schools, hospitals, and staff them. That's right, the history of this country is one of Christians working hard and everyone else doing nothing!

Which non-Christian communities do you most admire in 19th century America?

The more I talk with you, the more you seem to be saying that Christians are good and everyone else is bad. If that is the way you look at the world, there's really no point talking to you.

Is your fabrication of history based on your anti-Christian prejudice?

The argument about what nation in history has been most prosperous is dependent upon the criteria you use. If area of land controlled or % of population are part of the nation are involved, the US is certainly not at the top of the list. If it is a matter of who controls the most wealth, I don't know how we would rank...especially considering the differences in economies over time. If personal liberty is the criteria, certainly, the US goes at the top. I don't know how it requires a lack of integrity to wonder what criteria one uses to determine what makes a nation prosperous.

I also did not lump the US as an empire, I merely stated that some of the empires of the past might be considered to have been more prosperous than the US.

Your comments about fabricated history have nothing to do with my post. I said nothing about the Cherokee, or that the US has not been a great example of nation of liberty.

I was using logical4u's own words in the quote about people working in the past. You asked about non-Christian communities in the 19th century, but skipped the part about only Christians working hard, building schools, etc. My point was simply that he seemed to be saying only Christians did any work in this country, I couldn't name any non-Christian communities to hold up as admirable.

Feel free to show the fabrications of history I've stated, rather than the ones you've created and assigned to me.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I dunno, Gore seems to have the scamming business mastered a little better, I'll get ahold of him first .

It won't work.

Al doesn't share!

 

[Uncensored2008]

The argument about what nation in history has been most prosperous is dependent upon the criteria you use. If area of land controlled or % of population are part of the nation are involved, the US is certainly not at the top of the list.

Those are not measures of prosperity. Some might argue that they are measures of success, but prosperity? Hardly.

If it is a matter of who controls the most wealth, I don't know how we would rank...especially considering the differences in economies over time. If personal liberty is the criteria, certainly, the US goes at the top. I don't know how it requires a lack of integrity to wonder what criteria one uses to determine what makes a nation prosperous.

"The measure of the prosperity of a nation is the fortunes of the least among them." - Lord Byron.

Name society in history where commoners have enjoyed more comforts and freedom for starvation or disease than the USA? You can't, as none exists.

I understand, people will not agree to transform a society which is arguably successful. The only means of ending the free republic and returning to the authoritarian norms that dominate human history is to convince the foolish masses that their personal fortunes will rise if the cede liberty to a willing ruling class. Ergo the impetus to rewrite history, casting the Americans as villains.

I also did not lump the US as an empire, I merely stated that some of the empires of the past might be considered to have been more prosperous than the US.

Successful is not a synonym of prosperous.

Your comments about fabricated history have nothing to do with my post. I said nothing about the Cherokee, or that the US has not been a great example of nation of liberty.

The claim that other nations have a more prosperous history is a fabrication.

I was using logical4u's own words in the quote about people working in the past. You asked about non-Christian communities in the 19th century, but skipped the part about only Christians working hard, building schools, etc. My point was simply that he seemed to be saying only Christians did any work in this country, I couldn't name any non-Christian communities to hold up as admirable.

Like it or not, the United States was a Christian country. Regardless of a smattering of Deists, the nation was built by Christians.

This is important, too. It is the concepts of Christian liberty which the nation is founded on. The ideas of Jesuits, Luther, Wesley, et al, that man is sovereign and answerable to his God rather than to kings or dictators are the libertine foundation that this experiment in freedom was built on. America could not have arisen without the overwhelming Christian presence of the 18th century.

Feel free to show the fabrications of history I've stated, rather than the ones you've created and assigned to me.

The fabrication of a more prosperous nation.