A lot of Atheist and agnostics just don't get it

[Meriweather]

You are saying that it was ok for God to demand a human sacrifice because that was acceptable to human society at the time.

No. That is not anything close to what I am saying. I am speaking about the human author and how he chose to construct the story so the people of his time understood it was God, Himself, who commanded them not to sacrifice their children.

1. He presents Abraham as a father who dearly loves his child, yet still puts God first.
2. Abraham is portrayed as trusting in God's ways, even when he does not understand them.
3. He is so convinced all will be well he tells his servants they will return to them.
4. Not only is Isaac spared society's decree that children be sacrificed, so are the children of all his descendants--which are countless.
5. The God of Abraham stopped child sacrifice for all those who worship him.

 

[Meriweather]

Saying God has to be given a pass on this because of the way the people acted is like saying a parent should be given a pass because their two year old can't control his emotions. You expect a child to act like a child. A parent must be held to a higher standard.

I am not saying God was given a pass.

 

[Meriweather]

I believe the next story is Sodom. Where God destroys an entire city because he's miffed they don't meet his high standards. A city which, btw, contained children who certainly can't have been too bad. In so doing we discover the one man good enough for his standards. A drunken pedophile who offered his young daughters up for gang rape rather than put his own butt on the line to protect his guests. Oh, and let us not forget the murder of those girl's mother for the heinous crime of turning to look.

Where do we find the love here?

Before we continue. Do you believe the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was solely an act of God? Have you ever considered it was a natural disaster that destroyed the two towns?

 

[diver52]

I believe the next story is Sodom. Where God destroys an entire city because he's miffed they don't meet his high standards. A city which, btw, contained children who certainly can't have been too bad. In so doing we discover the one man good enough for his standards. A drunken pedophile who offered his young daughters up for gang rape rather than put his own butt on the line to protect his guests. Oh, and let us not forget the murder of those girl's mother for the heinous crime of turning to look.

Where do we find the love here?

Before we continue. Do you believe the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was solely an act of God? Have you ever considered it was a natural disaster that destroyed the two towns?

I'm not sure these town truly existed, but assuming they did then yes... it was a natural disaster. God had nothing at all to do with it because God does not interfere in this world at all. God did not talk to Abraham or flood the world. Jesus was a great religious teacher but only a man. I thought it was clear that I do not believe in the God of the Bible. But what we are talking about is how God is portrayed in the Bible, not what I believe. We can certainly get into that if you would like, but it is not the current subject.

In the Bible, God destroyed the towns. It was not a natural disaster. It was a conscious, intentional and pre-meditated act.

 

[diver52]

You are saying that it was ok for God to demand a human sacrifice because that was acceptable to human society at the time.

No. That is not anything close to what I am saying. I am speaking about the human author and how he chose to construct the story so the people of his time understood it was God, Himself, who commanded them not to sacrifice their children.

1. He presents Abraham as a father who dearly loves his child, yet still puts God first.
2. Abraham is portrayed as trusting in God's ways, even when he does not understand them.
3. He is so convinced all will be well he tells his servants they will return to them.
4. Not only is Isaac spared society's decree that children be sacrificed, so are the children of all his descendants--which are countless.
5. The God of Abraham stopped child sacrifice for all those who worship him.

In the story, did God or did God not command Abraham to sacrifice his son?

 

[BreezeWood]

In the story, did God or did God not command Abraham to sacrifice his son?

I am speaking about the human author and how he chose to construct the story so the people of his time understood it was God, Himself, who commanded them not to sacrifice their children.

christians by their nature are pathological liars ... their book of forgeries is their chosen right of passage as well their centuries old epitaph.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

All taken out of context

Actually, I had to provide asditional cpntext to your cherry picked statement. So, as is usually case qhen you fall on your face and swing desperately, you are the one much more guilty of that of which you accuse others.

 

[ding]

Let me try explaining it like this. It is irrational to use accounts of a people who believed that God is good to prove God isn’t good.

It shows that the person who is trying to use those accounts does not understand those accounts.

What I am using are the stories which tell of God's actions and judging those actions. Of course, if we accept as a given that those stories are just stories then we have a different situation. Are we taking that as a given?

Out of context and ignoring all the verses where they sing his praise.

I could not care less about their songs. I have taken nothing out of context. My position is based entirely and solely upon the supposed actions of God.

You absolutely have taken it out of context. There’s no question about that.

I agree there is no question, just that I have not taken it out of context. I keep getting reminded of that great line from the Wizard of Oz. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."

And yet your conclusion is diametrically opposed to how the Jews of Biblical days saw God.

David leaped and danced before the Ark. Leaped and danced.

 

[ding]

All taken out of context by a person who desires to see it that way.

howabout you bing -

the context for the religion of the roman empire throughout history ...

View attachment 269199

disguised as the events of the 1st century.

name one century your false religion has ever not been the primary force of persecution and victimization of the innocent.

By any objective measure Christianity has been the greatest force for good in the history of mankind.

 

[ding]

All taken out of context

Actually, I had to provide asditional cpntext to your cherry picked statement. So, as is usually case qhen you fall on your face and swing desperately, you are the one much more guilty of that of which you accuse others.

In Jewish thought the love and fear of God are to be understood as complementing one another.

Loving and Fearing God | My Jewish Learning

 

[Meriweather]

I thought it was clear that I do not believe in the God of the Bible.

You do come across as very bitter towards God and the Bible. Reading a book of stories seldom causes anyone to become bitter, so I am wondering what real life events are at the root of such bitterness.

I will not go into my stories, because you (and some others) will only call them odd, temporary brain blips, chemistry at work, etc. but the result is that I know God loves us all and cares deeply for each one of us as we go through this journey called life and both the tragedies and silliness the journey entails.

Therefore, when I read through the stories of Old Testament at a fairly young age, I, too, was bothered by how God was being presented. Why did the ancient Jews present God this way? It was here I was introduced to the concept that the Bible is to be studied--not read. But before I could truly understand any of it, I had to understand the people, the language, the histories, and the cultures of Biblical times. That took a lot of time over several years. I also had to understand story constructs--much easier as I was always taking creative writing classes in college. The story constructs in the Bible are inspiring and very well done. I also have a decent background in science, so I also brought to the table evolution, natural disasters as compared to Acts of God.

The bottom line: Ancient rabbis, Jewish scholars, and the Hebrew language opened the door to an entirely different world--much like opening a geode that looks like a plain old rock on the outside, but the inside is awesome--and often sparkles. And, there, in the rocks of the Old Testament, is God as I came to know Him.

 

[Meriweather]

In the story, did God or did God not command Abraham to sacrifice his son?

In the story, did God command Abraham to not touch the boy and to take him down? What was the purpose of the story, the lesson being taught?

 

[Meriweather]

I'm not sure these town truly existed, but assuming they did then yes... it was a natural disaster.

Ever notice how natural disasters are the springboard of stories? They also offer an opportunity to reflect back. And in reflecting back on Sodom and Gomorrah, the main criticism was they were truly inhospitable cities, it seems, even chaotic. The people of the time were convinced that the cities were being punished due to their lack of hospitality.

Gentiles, later, came to think that God was punishing homosexuality, but this is not what the Bible tells us in a couple of places. It was their blatant inhospitable acts.

However, we should not altogether brush aside what was happening sexually. Beginning here, so many stories touch on loose sexual behaviors of all kinds, with the inherent warning that these behaviors lead to disorder and turmoil--and can later come back to haunt and destroy. The Ammonites and Moabites (the descendants of the incestual relations between Lot and his two daughters) who became enemies of the Israelites is an example.

The admonition is clear: Undisciplined sexual behavior of any kind is often a portent to the downfall of a community or society, whether one wants to look at it as cause or symptom.

 

[diver52]

What I am using are the stories which tell of God's actions and judging those actions. Of course, if we accept as a given that those stories are just stories then we have a different situation. Are we taking that as a given?

Out of context and ignoring all the verses where they sing his praise.

I could not care less about their songs. I have taken nothing out of context. My position is based entirely and solely upon the supposed actions of God.

You absolutely have taken it out of context. There’s no question about that.

I agree there is no question, just that I have not taken it out of context. I keep getting reminded of that great line from the Wizard of Oz. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."

And yet your conclusion is diametrically opposed to how the Jews of Biblical days saw God.

David leaped and danced before the Ark. Leaped and danced.

I think I said this before. I do not accept a thing just because others accept it.

 

[diver52]

In the story, did God or did God not command Abraham to sacrifice his son?

In the story, did God command Abraham to not touch the boy and to take him down? What was the purpose of the story, the lesson being taught?

Yes. You think that makes it alright?

 

[diver52]

I'm not sure these town truly existed, but assuming they did then yes... it was a natural disaster.

Ever notice how natural disasters are the springboard of stories? They also offer an opportunity to reflect back. And in reflecting back on Sodom and Gomorrah, the main criticism was they were truly inhospitable cities, it seems, even chaotic. The people of the time were convinced that the cities were being punished due to their lack of hospitality.

Gentiles, later, came to think that God was punishing homosexuality, but this is not what the Bible tells us in a couple of places. It was their blatant inhospitable acts.

However, we should not altogether brush aside what was happening sexually. Beginning here, so many stories touch on loose sexual behaviors of all kinds, with the inherent warning that these behaviors lead to disorder and turmoil--and can later come back to haunt and destroy. The Ammonites and Moabites (the descendants of the incestual relations between Lot and his two daughters) who became enemies of the Israelites is an example.

The admonition is clear: Undisciplined sexual behavior of any kind is often a portent to the downfall of a community or society, whether one wants to look at it as cause or symptom.

So the stories are just stories.

 

[ding]

Out of context and ignoring all the verses where they sing his praise.

I could not care less about their songs. I have taken nothing out of context. My position is based entirely and solely upon the supposed actions of God.

You absolutely have taken it out of context. There’s no question about that.

I agree there is no question, just that I have not taken it out of context. I keep getting reminded of that great line from the Wizard of Oz. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."

And yet your conclusion is diametrically opposed to how the Jews of Biblical days saw God.

David leaped and danced before the Ark. Leaped and danced.

I think I said this before. I do not accept a thing just because others accept it.

I’m not asking you to. I’m not trying to convince you. I’m countering your position because it is illogical to conclude that God is not good from reading the religious texts of a people who believed God was immensely good.

 

[diver52]

I thought it was clear that I do not believe in the God of the Bible.

You do come across as very bitter towards God and the Bible. Reading a book of stories seldom causes anyone to become bitter, so I am wondering what real life events are at the root of such bitterness.

I will not go into my stories, because you (and some others) will only call them odd, temporary brain blips, chemistry at work, etc. but the result is that I know God loves us all and cares deeply for each one of us as we go through this journey called life and both the tragedies and silliness the journey entails.

Therefore, when I read through the stories of Old Testament at a fairly young age, I, too, was bothered by how God was being presented. Why did the ancient Jews present God this way? It was here I was introduced to the concept that the Bible is to be studied--not read. But before I could truly understand any of it, I had to understand the people, the language, the histories, and the cultures of Biblical times. That took a lot of time over several years. I also had to understand story constructs--much easier as I was always taking creative writing classes in college. The story constructs in the Bible are inspiring and very well done. I also have a decent background in science, so I also brought to the table evolution, natural disasters as compared to Acts of God.

The bottom line: Ancient rabbis, Jewish scholars, and the Hebrew language opened the door to an entirely different world--much like opening a geode that looks like a plain old rock on the outside, but the inside is awesome--and often sparkles. And, there, in the rocks of the Old Testament, is God as I came to know Him.

I'm not at all bitter. I just don't read the various stories through the filter of belief. I read what is there and evaluate based on that. I have said repeatedly that I just don't get how anyone can read those and find comfort in them, but also that it is clear people do. You don't require my understanding.

Your situation is not at all unique. I have heard similar things from many people. Interestingly, not of the same faith. Not of the same gods. So yes, I think it says much more about the nature of humans than of any gods. But that doesn't mean you might not be right, or the Hindus.

 

[diver52]

I could not care less about their songs. I have taken nothing out of context. My position is based entirely and solely upon the supposed actions of God.

You absolutely have taken it out of context. There’s no question about that.

I agree there is no question, just that I have not taken it out of context. I keep getting reminded of that great line from the Wizard of Oz. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."

And yet your conclusion is diametrically opposed to how the Jews of Biblical days saw God.

David leaped and danced before the Ark. Leaped and danced.

I think I said this before. I do not accept a thing just because others accept it.

I’m not asking you to. I’m not trying to convince you. I’m countering your position because it is illogical to conclude that God is not good from reading the religious texts of a people who believed God was immensely good.

No, it isn't.

 

[ding]

In the story, did God or did God not command Abraham to sacrifice his son?

In the story, did God command Abraham to not touch the boy and to take him down? What was the purpose of the story, the lesson being taught?

Yes. You think that makes it alright?

How is it wrong?