A lot of Atheist and agnostics just don't get it

[Meriweather]

So the stories are just stories.

Much more than that. Most are springboards and inspiration for something greater. They are a history and accounts of God's presence in our midst told in story form. Or in songs and poetry. Or in plays.

 

[ding]

Gotta jet. Be back later.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm not at all bitter. I just don't read the various stories through the filter of belief. I read what is there and evaluate based on that. I have said repeatedly that I just don't get how anyone can read those and find comfort in them, but also that it is clear people do. You don't require my understanding.

Your situation is not at all unique. I have heard similar things from many people. Interestingly, not of the same faith. Not of the same gods. So yes, I think it says much more about the nature of humans than of any gods. But that doesn't mean you might not be right, or the Hindus.

Do you think filters of critique and unbelief are clearer than the filters of belief and in depth studies? And yes, God reaches out to people of all beliefs--and no belief. There is no reason to expect God to limit Himself.

 

[diver52]

No, it isn't.

100% wrong. You are reading these accounts with a desired outcome. How do you reconcile all the passages where the ancient Jews saw God as good and loving? You can’t.

Ok. I am going to say this one last time. If you can't understand it then there is little point in continuing. I DO NOT ACCEPT A THING JUST BECAUSE OTHERS ACCEPT IT.

I don’t accept anything just because someone said it. I test everything.

You are testing nothing which is just as wrong as blindly accepting everything.

Fine. Then I won't use the argument that all those other folks thought so. Do me the same courtesy.

There is nothing wrong with accepting knowledge on the authority of others as long as some effort is made to test the knowledge being shared.

I don’t really see you testing your beliefs. I see you confirming your biases.

This conversation began with me simply stating that the title of the thread was true for me. I really just didn't get it. I was asked why and I explained myself. Since then, there seems to be some importance in showing me the error of my ways. You all could have just said "ok" to my statement and that would have been the end of it. Now it is my fault because I am allowing my biases to prevent me from seeing that you are right.

Here's the thing, Ding. You have never asked me what my beliefs are. You have only been concerned with your own so we have only talked about your own.

 

[diver52]

I'm not at all bitter. I just don't read the various stories through the filter of belief. I read what is there and evaluate based on that. I have said repeatedly that I just don't get how anyone can read those and find comfort in them, but also that it is clear people do. You don't require my understanding.

Your situation is not at all unique. I have heard similar things from many people. Interestingly, not of the same faith. Not of the same gods. So yes, I think it says much more about the nature of humans than of any gods. But that doesn't mean you might not be right, or the Hindus.

Do you think filters of critique and unbelief are clearer than the filters of belief and in depth studies? And yes, God reaches out to people of all beliefs--and no belief. There is no reason to expect God to limit Himself.

We all have our own filters.

 

[Meriweather]

When has this ever amounted to a hill of beans? Even if sex would be the the great dividing line, among other issues like greed, pride, bearing false witness against another, how many men and women have saved themselves sexually in anticipation of their marriage ceremony?

Biblical authors didn't seem to make a hill of beans of it. Their stories come across more as an observation, and perhaps as a cautionary note to people to remain disciplined, and why Jewish law is written as it is. They did not spare accounts of themselves, or their most loved king and the problems that can arise with undisciplined sex. Since they do address issues such as greed, pride, bearing false witness, why would they avoid the issue of sex?

 

[Meriweather]

We all have our own filters.

Which is why I read through threads. I enjoy seeing through the lenses of other filters as well. I am still mystified by what lens you see the ending of the story of the Binding of Isaac. Is that where you return to the lens of, "I don't believe it happened anyway, so the conclusion doesn't matter"? Sincerely curious.

 

[Meriweather]

So when (in my earlier example) I held a gun to the head of a child, that would have been alright if I was just trying to teach the mother a life lesson.

I never did get the point of that example. I am completely mystified. What was the life lesson you were planning to teach? What was the end result? How did it change life for that family and all their descendants for the better?

 

[diver52]

We all have our own filters.

Which is why I read through threads. I enjoy seeing through the lenses of other filters as well. I am still mystified by what lens you see the ending of the story of the Binding of Isaac. Is that where you return to the lens of, "I don't believe it happened anyway, so the conclusion doesn't matter"? Sincerely curious.

To me it really doesn't matter whether it is true or not. The end result is the same and I judge based upon the story itself.

At the end of the story God comes back and says to put your blade down. However, God could just as easily begun the story just by telling Abraham that he didn't want human sacrifice and not to do it at all. Instead, God decided to put this man and his son through hell. He didn't have to do it. He didn't have to destroy Sodom. He didn't have to kill all those people in the story of Job. He didn't have to flood the world. He didn't have to harden Pharaoh's heart. He chose to. That is what I get out of those stories.

I'm fine with you coming to a different conclusion.

 

[diver52]

So when (in my earlier example) I held a gun to the head of a child, that would have been alright if I was just trying to teach the mother a life lesson.

I never did get the point of that example. I am completely mystified. What was the life lesson you were planning to teach? What was the end result? How did it change life for that family and all their descendants for the better?

I am mystified that anyone would think it would matter what the lesson was. There is no justification for it. But that is pretty much what God did with Abraham and Isaac. I suppose to make the example really true I would have to make the mother think she would have to pull the trigger.

 

[Meriweather]

To me it really doesn't matter whether it is true or not. The end result is the same and I judge based upon the story itself.

At the end of the story God comes back and says to put your blade down. However, God could just as easily begun the story just by telling Abraham that he didn't want human sacrifice and not to do it at all. Instead, God decided to put this man and his son through hell. He didn't have to do it. He didn't have to destroy Sodom. He didn't have to kill all those people in the story of Job. He didn't have to flood the world. He didn't have to harden Pharaoh's heart. He chose to. That is what I get out of those stories.

I'm fine with you coming to a different conclusion.

As I said earlier, I had reached the same personal conclusions you are offering. And I moved on to discovering the intent of the original authors and how the original audience (and today's Jews) understand the stories. Much more interesting than my own conclusions!

 

[BreezeWood]

All taken out of context by a person who desires to see it that way.

howabout you bing -

the context for the religion of the roman empire throughout history ...

View attachment 269199

disguised as the events of the 1st century.

name one century your false religion has ever not been the primary force of persecution and victimization of the innocent.

By any objective measure Christianity has been the greatest force for good in the history of mankind.

By any objective measure Christianity has been the greatest force for good in the history of mankind.

that is not an example -

.

using the depictions of christianity at various periods through history explain the good you claim they represent. that is typical throughout history to the present day - and the other desert religions using the same underlying documents. forged as your 4th century christian bible for political purposes.

 

[diver52]

To me it really doesn't matter whether it is true or not. The end result is the same and I judge based upon the story itself.

At the end of the story God comes back and says to put your blade down. However, God could just as easily begun the story just by telling Abraham that he didn't want human sacrifice and not to do it at all. Instead, God decided to put this man and his son through hell. He didn't have to do it. He didn't have to destroy Sodom. He didn't have to kill all those people in the story of Job. He didn't have to flood the world. He didn't have to harden Pharaoh's heart. He chose to. That is what I get out of those stories.

I'm fine with you coming to a different conclusion.

As I said earlier, I had reached the same personal conclusions you are offering. And I moved on to discovering the intent of the original authors and how the original audience (and today's Jews) understand the stories. Much more interesting than my own conclusions!

Ahhhh…. but I have no responsibility for the conclusions of others. Only my own.

 

[Meriweather]

But that is pretty much what God did with Abraham and Isaac.

Not even close...

And yes, if you are going to construct a story, there needs to be a point.

 

[Meriweather]

Ahhhh…. but I have no responsibility for the conclusions of others. Only my own.

And once you reach a conclusion, you see nothing beyond it, no reason to explore further? All your questions are answered? Or, perhaps you had no questions at the start? Once again, sincere questions. Trying to understand.

 

[diver52]

But that is pretty much what God did with Abraham and Isaac.

Not even close...

And yes, if you are going to construct a story, there needs to be a point.

The only difference between my example and that story (regardless how it is constructed) is a gun and a knife.

 

[Meriweather]

The only difference between my example and that story (regardless how it is constructed) is a gun and a knife.

1. What relationship did you have with the mother?
2. Why were you (not she) holding the gun?
3. What was your long-term purpose?
4. Why would she, her family, and her descendants be better for the experience?

 

[diver52]

Ahhhh…. but I have no responsibility for the conclusions of others. Only my own.

And once you reach a conclusion, you see nothing beyond it, no reason to explore further? All your questions are answered? Or, perhaps you had no questions at the start? Once again, sincere questions. Trying to understand.

Any conclusion can be wrong. To think otherwise is pure ego. But that does not mean there has been no exploration. Why would you think that?

 

[diver52]

The only difference between my example and that story (regardless how it is constructed) is a gun and a knife.

1. What relationship did you have with the mother?
2. Why were you (not she) holding the gun?
3. What was your long-term purpose?
4. Why would she, her family, and her descendants be better for the experience?

And I continue to be mystified that you would think any of that matters. A parent was threatened with the death of their child. That is all that matters. There is no justification for it, only rationalization.

 

[BreezeWood]

You do come across as very bitter towards God and the Bible. Reading a book of stories seldom causes anyone to become bitter, so I am wondering what real life events are at the root of such bitterness.

I'm not at all bitter. I just don't read the various stories through the filter of belief ... You don't require my understanding.

the pathology of a liar ... and their resultant objective. and the forgeries they preclude.