A question for the anti-choice crowd.

[Czernobog]

Guess what? None of those are human beings.

Neither is a fetus. .....

Is a two year old child a human?

Yeah. it is. And do you know what a two-year-old isn't? A fetus. That's why they call it a baby, or a child, not a fetus. See, no one says, "Hey, guys! Look at these pictures of my two-year-old fetus.

Seems like you've never spoken to a mother with pictures from an ultrasound.

Women with an ultrasound talk about their two-year-old fetus?!?! Damn! I feel sorry for those women! I've never known a woman who was pregnant for two years!

 

[Anathema]

Cute. "The divine". And there is "only one". You can call yourself whatever you like, it is still fanaticism. I am proof of the inaccuracy of your position. My morality is written on my heart just as strongly as yours. Yet my morality demands that I never attempt to force others to comply with my beliefs. If there is but one "divine", and He instills the only moral code in existence onto the hearts of everyone, how, then, is my moral position so fundamentally different form yours?

Sorry, your One True Wayism is just as fanatical as any Christian's, or Muslim's, and is just as dangerous, whatever you want to call yourself. Organized religion isn't the problem. It never was. The fanaticism of One-True-Wayism, in whatever guise, is. Any time someone becomes so arrogant, self-righteous, and convinced of their own moral superiority to everyone else that they feel they have to right to impose their morality on everyone, that person is dangerous, and does irreparable harm to society, if not kept in check.

You will never convince me otherwise. You can label yourself whatever you like, you are no different than the Christian extremists, or Muslim Extremists.

I never claimed NOT to be a fanatic. Nor am I here to convince you of anything. Your beliefs will be put to the test, just like mine, at the moment of our death.

True, Universal Morality was engraved in the hearts of ALL Mankind at the moment of our creation. If a family or individual chooses to ignore it, the engraving is less visible on the hearts of the next generation. Often these people try to write over the engraving, or just let it fade into illegibility as time passes. That doesn't mean the remnants aren't still there.

 

[Czernobog]

Cute. "The divine". And there is "only one". You can call yourself whatever you like, it is still fanaticism. I am proof of the inaccuracy of your position. My morality is written on my heart just as strongly as yours. Yet my morality demands that I never attempt to force others to comply with my beliefs. If there is but one "divine", and He instills the only moral code in existence onto the hearts of everyone, how, then, is my moral position so fundamentally different form yours?

Sorry, your One True Wayism is just as fanatical as any Christian's, or Muslim's, and is just as dangerous, whatever you want to call yourself. Organized religion isn't the problem. It never was. The fanaticism of One-True-Wayism, in whatever guise, is. Any time someone becomes so arrogant, self-righteous, and convinced of their own moral superiority to everyone else that they feel they have to right to impose their morality on everyone, that person is dangerous, and does irreparable harm to society, if not kept in check.

You will never convince me otherwise. You can label yourself whatever you like, you are no different than the Christian extremists, or Muslim Extremists.

I never claimed NOT to be a fanatic. Nor am I here to convince you of anything. Your beliefs will be put to the test, just like mine, at the moment of our death.

True, Universal Morality was engraved in the hearts of ALL Mankind at the moment of our creation. If a family or individual chooses to ignore it, the engraving is less visible on the hearts of the next generation. Often these people try to write over the engraving, or just let it fade into illegibility as time passes. That doesn't mean the remnants aren't still there.

And you are quite welcome to your beliefs. However we live in a country that celebrates the secular nature of its design. What you seem to want is a theocracy in which every citizen must behave in accordance with your personal beliefs. I will never support that and fortunately neither will the majority of this country.

So, we seem to have come to an impasse. Have a nice day.


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[Unkotare]

Is a two year old child a human?

........What we can - I hope - agree on, and should is that it is not proper for anyone to pass any legislation that forces another individual to behave in accordance with someone else's moral code.

That's exactly what YOU want.

No, it's not. Nothing in what I support dictates that you do anything. You think that abortion is murder? Don't have an abortion. Nothing in my position would force you to have an abortion you didn't agree with. You think homosexuality is a sin, and a perversion? Don't sleep with men, and don't marry someone of the same sex. Nothing I support would require you to engage with people of the same sex as if you were a homosexual. It is not my positions, but yours, that attempts to dictate people's personal behaviours as if they agreed with your moral positions.

Funding, enabling, condoning, and securing are all actions.

None of which you are required to do. ....

All of which. We are a republic.

 

[Unkotare]

Guess what? None of those are human beings.

Neither is a fetus. .....

Is a two year old child a human?

Yeah. it is. And do you know what a two-year-old isn't? A fetus. That's why they call it a baby, or a child, not a fetus. See, no one says, "Hey, guys! Look at these pictures of my two-year-old fetus.

Seems like you've never spoken to a mother with pictures from an ultrasound.

Women with an ultrasound talk about their two-year-old fetus?!?! Damn! I feel sorry for those women! I've never known a woman who was pregnant for two years!

Are you claiming to be stupid?

 

[Czernobog]

Neither is a fetus. .....

Is a two year old child a human?

Yeah. it is. And do you know what a two-year-old isn't? A fetus. That's why they call it a baby, or a child, not a fetus. See, no one says, "Hey, guys! Look at these pictures of my two-year-old fetus.

Seems like you've never spoken to a mother with pictures from an ultrasound.

Women with an ultrasound talk about their two-year-old fetus?!?! Damn! I feel sorry for those women! I've never known a woman who was pregnant for two years!

Are you claiming to be stupid?

No, I'm claiming you to be stupid.

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[Anathema]

And you are quite welcome to your beliefs. However we live in a country that celebrates the secular nature of its design. What you seem to want is a theocracy in which every citizen must behave in accordance with your personal beliefs. I will never support that and fortunately neither will the majority of this country.

So, we seem to have come to an impasse. Have a nice day.

I would tend to disagree with your idea of America as an entirely Secular nation; but that's a topic for another time and place.

America will fall, as all Western nations do, BECAUSE of its Secularism and lack of a common culture. A House Divided against Itself cannot Long Survive. America has survived longer than many, but her fatal wounds were incurred a century and a half ago. They're starting to fester again. The infection is setting in harder than ever before. The patient is Terminal and doesn't even know it yet.

 

[OldUSAFSniper]

I am very pro-life. I am a 60-year old rancher who lives in Oklahoma, who has been, upon occasion, politically active with certain causes, the NRA being one of them. I have three children. Two of them are adopted from state agencies / foster care and they are my life. I lost a child shortly after birth when his umbilical cord was prolapsed and it cut off his supply of oxygen. I was the one who turned off his ventilator and held him for 8 hours until his death. And then I buried him while his mother wept uncontrollably at his grave. I have since buried his mother beside him.

I am also a veteran of Vietnam and have been in combat. I have taken lives and watched as others were killed. When I came back to the states, I was a cop until I retired. I have held people in my arms on the side of a highway and watched as the light in their eyes fade. I have felt and have witnessed what I choose to believe is their soul leave their body as they pass away, some quietly. Some clawing and fighting for every breath. But it is palpable. And it is hard to explain.

I find that those who support abortion on demand as a form of birth control, are usually those who have extremely limited experience with life and are usually 'limousine liberals.' In other words, their experience with the nasty side of death is nonexistent or very limited. A child is the product of sexual intercourse, that too many people engage in as a form of recreation. It's purpose is to create children and when a child is created, we act so surprised. If you had used birth control, which can be obtained free of charge, then that would not have happened. When confronted by a child, they want the taxpayer to pay for killing that child they created by their lack of responsibility and outright stupidity. Or they want a blanket 'get out of parenthood' card, with the ability to abort the child. Another building block in the total destruction of personal responsibility. Let the government handle my problems.

I support the use of abortion in the case of incest or rape, reluctantly, but I do support it. I believe that if I had my way, abortions would be illegal, except in the case of incest or rape. And if a doctor performed one unlawfully, his license should be revoked for a time. The woman? I do not support incarceration for the women or the doctor. Is abortion murder? Indeed, I believe it is. We do not advocate the same punishment for those who kill another human being in a traffic accident, or unintentionally. There are degrees of murder. I realize that for the loony left, the concern for 'me' overrides all other considerations. Abortion kills a human. It is just that simple.

 

[Unkotare]

Is a two year old child a human?

Yeah. it is. And do you know what a two-year-old isn't? A fetus. That's why they call it a baby, or a child, not a fetus. See, no one says, "Hey, guys! Look at these pictures of my two-year-old fetus.

Seems like you've never spoken to a mother with pictures from an ultrasound.

Women with an ultrasound talk about their two-year-old fetus?!?! Damn! I feel sorry for those women! I've never known a woman who was pregnant for two years!

Are you claiming to be stupid?

No, I'm claiming you to be stupid.

You are not having the effect you intended.

 

[Czernobog]

Yeah. it is. And do you know what a two-year-old isn't? A fetus. That's why they call it a baby, or a child, not a fetus. See, no one says, "Hey, guys! Look at these pictures of my two-year-old fetus.

Seems like you've never spoken to a mother with pictures from an ultrasound.

Women with an ultrasound talk about their two-year-old fetus?!?! Damn! I feel sorry for those women! I've never known a woman who was pregnant for two years!

Are you claiming to be stupid?

No, I'm claiming you to be stupid.

You are not having the effect you intended.

Spoken as someone too stupid to know how stupid they are. I specifically reference "...my two-year-old fetus..." and you stupidly bring up women and their ultrasounds.

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[Czernobog]

........What we can - I hope - agree on, and should is that it is not proper for anyone to pass any legislation that forces another individual to behave in accordance with someone else's moral code.

That's exactly what YOU want.

No, it's not. Nothing in what I support dictates that you do anything. You think that abortion is murder? Don't have an abortion. Nothing in my position would force you to have an abortion you didn't agree with. You think homosexuality is a sin, and a perversion? Don't sleep with men, and don't marry someone of the same sex. Nothing I support would require you to engage with people of the same sex as if you were a homosexual. It is not my positions, but yours, that attempts to dictate people's personal behaviours as if they agreed with your moral positions.

Funding, enabling, condoning, and securing are all actions.

None of which you are required to do. ....

All of which. We are a republic.

Bullshit. Our being a republic has nothing to do with you condoning anything, as I said in the portion you deleted, because you want to pretend that you are required to approve of something you are not.

 

[hadit]

Yes, I do.

Really? And how do you do that, pray tell? I can't wait to hear this…

Very simple: DON'T KILL THE PERSON.

In the natural course of events that person will grow and develop until he or she is ready to tell you whether he or she wants to live.

In other words, you're complete full of shit. A fetus which is not a person - as evidenced by your own admission that it is not a person capable of opinions, or communication until they are actually born - does not have any actual opinions, and you cannot communicate with a fetus.

Thank you for playing. Have a nice day. Do feel free to pick up your parting gifts on the way out.

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"Personhood" is a legal construct that has nothing to do with biology. We should at least be able to agree on that. The bottom line with abortion is this. It destroys a living human organism. The only thing we're really arguing over is when that's acceptable.

Apparently not. I tried to point that out, and was told in no uncertain terms that personhood has nothing to do with the law, or society.

I don't think you and I are really that far apart when it comes down to it.

 

[Unkotare]

That's exactly what YOU want.

No, it's not. Nothing in what I support dictates that you do anything. You think that abortion is murder? Don't have an abortion. Nothing in my position would force you to have an abortion you didn't agree with. You think homosexuality is a sin, and a perversion? Don't sleep with men, and don't marry someone of the same sex. Nothing I support would require you to engage with people of the same sex as if you were a homosexual. It is not my positions, but yours, that attempts to dictate people's personal behaviours as if they agreed with your moral positions.

Funding, enabling, condoning, and securing are all actions.

None of which you are required to do. ....

All of which. We are a republic.

Bullshit. Our being a republic has nothing to do with you condoning anything...

You clearly don't understand what it means.

 

[Czernobog]

No, it's not. Nothing in what I support dictates that you do anything. You think that abortion is murder? Don't have an abortion. Nothing in my position would force you to have an abortion you didn't agree with. You think homosexuality is a sin, and a perversion? Don't sleep with men, and don't marry someone of the same sex. Nothing I support would require you to engage with people of the same sex as if you were a homosexual. It is not my positions, but yours, that attempts to dictate people's personal behaviours as if they agreed with your moral positions.

Funding, enabling, condoning, and securing are all actions.

None of which you are required to do. ....

All of which. We are a republic.

Bullshit. Our being a republic has nothing to do with you condoning anything...

You clearly don't understand what it means.

Well...one of us is certainly having a comprehension problem. Based on the intelligence - or lack thereof - of many of your other posts, I have a pretty good idea which one of us that is...

 

[deltex1]

Okay. Now, this is a question specifically directed towards the anti-choice activists. Let us begin with the most common premise of the anti-choice folks: A fetus is a person. Abortion is killing a person without justification. Ergo, abortion is essentially state sanctioned murder. (Now, let us be clear, I Do. NOT agree with this premise, at all. However, it is the premise of nearly every anti-choice advocate. So, to follow this position to its logical conclusion, we are going to allow this premise from the outset.)

So, we have established that a fetus is a person, and abortion is equivalent to murder. Proceeding from that premise, there are actually two people involved in the planning, and executing of said murder - the doctor, and the pregnant woman. Now, the anti-choice advocates have made no secret of their contempt for the doctors who participate in abortions, Oklahoma going so far as to pass a new law criminalizing abortions, and levying heavy penalties against the doctors who participate. However, no one, including Oklahoma, seems interested in punishing, or even acknowledging, the pregnant woman's role in this action. So. What about her? What punishment is reasonable for a woman who contracts a medical professional to murder her unborn child?

A lifetime of guilt, regret and wondering is perhaps enough. A mother who has none of those emotions will find something else to fuck up her existence.

 

[Unkotare]

Funding, enabling, condoning, and securing are all actions.

None of which you are required to do. ....

All of which. We are a republic.

Bullshit. Our being a republic has nothing to do with you condoning anything...

You clearly don't understand what it means.

Well...one of us is certainly having a comprehension problem. Based on the intelligence - or lack thereof - .....

Yes, you sure are.

 

[Czernobog]

None of which you are required to do. ....

All of which. We are a republic.

Bullshit. Our being a republic has nothing to do with you condoning anything...

You clearly don't understand what it means.

Well...one of us is certainly having a comprehension problem. Based on the intelligence - or lack thereof - .....

Yes, you sure are.

And, now you go into the ignore pile, as you are not only stupid, but feel the need to alter posts so they appear to say what you want them to say. Good bye, and do feel free to piss up a rope.

 

[Unkotare]

All of which. We are a republic.

Bullshit. Our being a republic has nothing to do with you condoning anything...

You clearly don't understand what it means.

Well...one of us is certainly having a comprehension problem. Based on the intelligence - or lack thereof - .....

Yes, you sure are.

And, now you go into the ignore pile.....

Yeah, running away does seem to be all you've got left. Too bad you can't run from the murderous reality of your morally bankrupt ideology.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Look, like I said, we are never going to agree. What we can - I hope - agree on, and should is that it is not proper for anyone to pass any legislation that forces another individual to behave in accordance with someone else's moral code.

Surely that ought to apply to any legal position which forces one human being to forfeit his very life, because another person refuses to recognize his humanity.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

No, it's not. Nothing in what I support dictates that you do anything. You think that abortion is murder? Don't have an abortion. Nothing in my position would force you to have an abortion you didn't agree with.

How much choice does the innocent victim of an abortion get?

You think homosexuality is a sin, and a perversion? Don't sleep with men, and don't marry someone of the same sex. Nothing I support would require you to engage with people of the same sex as if you were a homosexual. It is not my positions, but yours, that attempts to dictate people's personal behaviours as if they agreed with your moral positions.

If I'm a baker, or a caterer, or a photographer, or any other businessperson that is in the business of catering to weddings, would you recognize my right not to use my time and talents in support of an immoral homosexual mockery of a wedding?