A question for the pro-abortion aka pro-choice crowd

[SW2SILVER]

It's one of those things, abortion is a personal health issue. Women leave my prostate alone, I don’t tell them what to do with their uterus. Like that.

 

[JohnA]

Regarding motivations, I observe two motivations in the anti-abortion movement, as I briefly touched on earlier. Some members of it are genuinely concerned with protecting unborn fetuses. Others use that as a smokescreen or a means to the end of returning women to sexual servitude as they were in the past, when marriage was a form of property ownership, rape of one's spouse was a non-crime, and women were expected to be the virginal property of their male relatives until marriage upon which they became the subordinate, submissive property of their husbands.

The reason why this motivates some people to the anti-abortion movement is because legal, safe, available abortion (like birth control) results in female sexual freedom. A woman is free these days to control her own sexual behavior and fertility. If her husband rapes her, that's now a crime. If she is unmarried and wants to have sex with someone, she can, without fear of pregnancy as a consequence (although she still has to watch out for STDs). To the anti-feminist wing of the anti-abortion movement, this seems like unjustifiable permissiveness and they want to restore the consequences of sinful sex to women so that fear of those consequences might keep their legs crossed more.

There's a simple test to determine whether a given member of the anti-abortion movement belongs to its truly pro-life wing or merely to its anti-feminist wing, and I invite all anti-abortion participants on this thread to take that test. It involves answering one simple question.

If you were writing a law to make abortion illegal once more, would you make an exception allowing termination of a pregnancy that resulted from rape?

You parrot the usual pro-choice talking points quite well, I'll give ya' that!

There are only three reasons that would validate abortion:


Other than those three, there is no valid reason to exterminate innocent human life.

Ya' see, what the pro-choicers are all about, like most left wingers are all about, is doing away with any personal responsibility.....Whatever they can do to make their lives easierl, without having to care about their decisions, take the personal responsibility angle out of the equation........Hence, "hey, if I get pregnant, no problem, i'll just abort the lil' bastard."

And i'll ask you a question that ALWAYS boggles the minds of the pro-choicers:

Why shouldn't the father have a choice in the abortion decision?

After all, the pro-choicers always seem to the think the father is just a tool in conception, and should only be pulled out of the box when it's time be the cash cow after birth......The woman knows the risks taken when deciding to spread her legs. She knows her womb may damn sure end up harboring an innocent human life, as does the male......It takes both to create life. Equal responsibility.....There is no life without sperm meeting egg. after all......So, tell us why the father should have no rights in the decision to kill that child.

THREE * VALID * REASONS ARE




1) Risk to a mothers life.

2) Incest related pregnancy.

3) Rape.

see you beat yourself over the head with that answer

IF a fetus is a *human life * why should it be sacrificed cus the father took part in a illegal act ( rape )

of the father pregnated a female in his own family ) (incest )

why should the FETUS (BABY ) BE SACRIFICED FOR THAT WHAT SIN ,HARM .ILLEGAL ACT
did the baby do to have it life taken???




this is where you anti abortions folks are hypocritical

plus you approve and support INVITRO INSEMINATION a procedure in which many FETUSES /EMBRYO,s are distroyed

I REST MY CASE

 

[Wicked Jester]

Regarding motivations, I observe two motivations in the anti-abortion movement, as I briefly touched on earlier. Some members of it are genuinely concerned with protecting unborn fetuses. Others use that as a smokescreen or a means to the end of returning women to sexual servitude as they were in the past, when marriage was a form of property ownership, rape of one's spouse was a non-crime, and women were expected to be the virginal property of their male relatives until marriage upon which they became the subordinate, submissive property of their husbands.

The reason why this motivates some people to the anti-abortion movement is because legal, safe, available abortion (like birth control) results in female sexual freedom. A woman is free these days to control her own sexual behavior and fertility. If her husband rapes her, that's now a crime. If she is unmarried and wants to have sex with someone, she can, without fear of pregnancy as a consequence (although she still has to watch out for STDs). To the anti-feminist wing of the anti-abortion movement, this seems like unjustifiable permissiveness and they want to restore the consequences of sinful sex to women so that fear of those consequences might keep their legs crossed more.

There's a simple test to determine whether a given member of the anti-abortion movement belongs to its truly pro-life wing or merely to its anti-feminist wing, and I invite all anti-abortion participants on this thread to take that test. It involves answering one simple question.

If you were writing a law to make abortion illegal once more, would you make an exception allowing termination of a pregnancy that resulted from rape?

You parrot the usual pro-choice talking points quite well, I'll give ya' that!

There are only three reasons that would validate abortion:


Other than those three, there is no valid reason to exterminate innocent human life.

Ya' see, what the pro-choicers are all about, like most left wingers are all about, is doing away with any personal responsibility.....Whatever they can do to make their lives easierl, without having to care about their decisions, take the personal responsibility angle out of the equation........Hence, "hey, if I get pregnant, no problem, i'll just abort the lil' bastard."

And i'll ask you a question that ALWAYS boggles the minds of the pro-choicers:

Why shouldn't the father have a choice in the abortion decision?

After all, the pro-choicers always seem to the think the father is just a tool in conception, and should only be pulled out of the box when it's time be the cash cow after birth......The woman knows the risks taken when deciding to spread her legs. She knows her womb may damn sure end up harboring an innocent human life, as does the male......It takes both to create life. Equal responsibility.....There is no life without sperm meeting egg. after all......So, tell us why the father should have no rights in the decision to kill that child.

THREE * VALID * REASONS ARE




1) Risk to a mothers life.

2) Incest related pregnancy.

3) Rape.

see you beat yourself over the head with that answer

IF a fetus is a *human life * why should it be sacrificed cus the father took part in a illegal act ( rape )

of the father pregnated a female in his own family ) (incest )

why should the FETUS (BABY ) BE SACRIFICED FOR THAT WHAT SIN ,HARM .ILLEGAL ACT
did the baby do to have it life taken???




this is where you anti abortions folks are hypocritical

plus you approve and support INVITRO INSEMINATION a procedure in which many FETUSES /EMBRYO,s are distroyed

I REST MY CASE

You never had a case, clown!

Once again, like the troofer idiots, the pro-choicers try to tell ya' what ya' think.

And it happens because they can't defend their choice to wantonely exterminate innocent human life.

Btw, get your self an education, or lay off the fucking pipe.....Your writing is like that of a 6 year old, son.

Now, genius, how about you have the balls to answer the question about a fathers rights.

You life exterminators always avoid it like the plague......And we know why!

 

[Gadawg73]

I am in the process of patenting Dawgs' Keflar Chastity Belts.
Even Houdini could not get them off. 100% guaranteed.
And only the father of the girl can keep the key. We all know how irresponsible women are and that men are not responsible ever for any pregnancy in America.

 

[Amadoos]

I say we take women's choice away and force them to give birth. Then take their baby away and give it to a good christian family.

 

[Gadawg73]

I say we take women's choice away and force them to give birth. Then take their baby away and give it to a good christian family.

I like it but I am for only giving ithe babies to Muslim families.

 

[Dragon]

LMAO!......Pure fuckin' hogwash......Ya' see, you pro-lifers just want abortion dumps.....Regardless of reason.......I can reason clearly for the three extenuating circumstances......You people can't reason for anything.......The last paragraph of your drivel doesn't even make fucking sense

Now, why are you cherry picking, like all pro-choicers do, and refusing to address the fathers rights questions?........Yeah, we know why!

If you can see reason for those exceptions, why don't you articulate it? I explained above why, if you really believe that an embryo is a person from conception and that abortion is murder, you would not make an exception for rape. Didn't understand? I'll explain it again.

The embryo is innocent of any crime. We do not punish children, capitally or otherwise, for the crimes of their parents. To kill the child of a rapist is just as much murder as to kill the child of an innocent person.

Now, I also explained why I think a lot of anti-abortion people do make an exception for rape. They don't really care about protecting the unborn. That's just a whitewash, a means to an end, an excuse to pursue their real agenda: to keep loose women from engaging in immoral behavior without consequences. The risk of pregnancy makes unmarried women keep their knees together; abortion reduces that risk; therefore abortion encourages immoral behavior and THAT is the reason you oppose it, not because it kills unborn babies.

That reason why you would make an exception for rape is logical and makes sense. (After all, it's not the woman's fault she's pregnant if she was raped.) You, on the other hand, have offered NO REASON AT ALL to make such an exception. You say you have one that we would not understand. I say, you don't know that until you try.

So let's hear it. Why make an exception for rape? Other than the reason I gave above, that is.

 

[Amadoos]

I say we take women's choice away and force them to give birth. Then take their baby away and give it to a good christian family.

I like it but I am for only giving ithe babies to Muslim families.

So they can rape them?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

My daughter...if she gets pregnant, she will be having the baby and likely either I would raise it or we'd find a loving family to raise it.

Again, a choice by your family – and another family’s choice to have an abortion equally legitimate, as guarenteed by the right to privacy.

But pregnancy is the consequence of sex, and we don't murder our way out of momentary lapses in judgment.

And yet you continue to refuse to explain how that ‘murder’ will be punished; you say you have ‘no idea’ as to the legal mechanics of prosecuting those ‘guilty of abortion,’ without the conviction of your principles to follow through with your accusation of ‘murder,’ your argument is pointless and invalid, in addition to being un-Constitutional.

You parrot the usual pro-choice talking points quite well, I'll give ya' that!

There are only three reasons that would validate abortion:

1) Risk to a mothers life.

2) Incest related pregnancy.

3) Rape.

Other than those three, there is no valid reason to exterminate innocent human life.

Ya' see, what the pro-choicers are all about, like most left wingers are all about, is doing away with any personal responsibility.....Whatever they can do to make their lives easierl, without having to care about their decisions, take the personal responsibility angle out of the equation........Hence, "hey, if I get pregnant, no problem, i'll just abort the lil' bastard."

And i'll ask you a question that ALWAYS boggles the minds of the pro-choicers:

Why shouldn't the father have a choice in the abortion decision?

After all, the pro-choicers always seem to the think the father is just a tool in conception, and should only be pulled out of the box when it's time be the cash cow after birth......The woman knows the risks taken when deciding to spread her legs. She knows her womb may damn sure end up harboring an innocent human life, as does the male......It takes both to create life. Equal responsibility.....There is no life without sperm meeting egg. after all......So, tell us why the father should have no rights in the decision to kill that child.

You make the same mistake with regard to those opposed to privacy rights: in order for your argument to be valid and consistent, you must disallow abortion in cases of rape, incest, and when the mother’s life is in danger.

Anyone who sincerely wishes to protect the unborn, and regards an embryo at conception at a person, and would make abortion illegal again for that reason, would NOT make an exception for rape or incest. To protect the life of the mother, yes, but not for those other reasons.

No, in order for those opposed to privacy rights to be consistent, the mother must be allowed to die, as that would be a ‘natural process,’ one may not ‘murder’ someone to save someone else’s life.

The post you addressed is typical pro-choice poropaganda, straight from the pro-choice handbook of talking points......It's an attempt to minimize actual human life. It's a way to justify their twisted view.....A way to feel good about their support of exterminating innocent human life. To do away with the guilt, if you will.

And you view is just as twisted if you abort a fetus to save a woman’s life or refuse to subject those involved in abortion to criminal prosecution. Those opposed to choice and privacy rights are all talk and no action, they lack the courage and conviction to follow through with the logical extrapolation of their rhetoric.

For your question: I would not pass a law against abortion. It would be wide open for abuse, and impossible to enforce effectively. I would educate people that if you have sex, there is a possibility you will make a child. If you terminate that life, it is murder. If you do not want to have a child with a particular person at a particular time, do not have sex with that person. If that person is the person you want to be in your life, for keeps, but do not want a child at that time, use protection. It is a gamble, but a fairly safe gamble. It seems pretty simple to me.

This makes no sense: if one doesn’t pass a law banning abortion then one may not call it ‘murder.’ Your argument is moot.

So let's hear it. Why make an exception for rape? Other than the reason I gave above, that is.

An explanation won’t be forthcoming, as it would expose the argument as a fallacy.

 

[Gadawg73]

I say we take women's choice away and force them to give birth. Then take their baby away and give it to a good christian family.

I like it but I am for only giving ithe babies to Muslim families.

So they can rape them?

There is an exception for rape explained very well here.

 

[BDBoop]

LMAO!......Pure fuckin' hogwash......Ya' see, you pro-lifers just want abortion dumps.....Regardless of reason.......I can reason clearly for the three extenuating circumstances......You people can't reason for anything.......The last paragraph of your drivel doesn't even make fucking sense

Now, why are you cherry picking, like all pro-choicers do, and refusing to address the fathers rights questions?........Yeah, we know why!

If you can see reason for those exceptions, why don't you articulate it? I explained above why, if you really believe that an embryo is a person from conception and that abortion is murder, you would not make an exception for rape. Didn't understand? I'll explain it again.

The embryo is innocent of any crime. We do not punish children, capitally or otherwise, for the crimes of their parents. To kill the child of a rapist is just as much murder as to kill the child of an innocent person.

Now, I also explained why I think a lot of anti-abortion people do make an exception for rape. They don't really care about protecting the unborn. That's just a whitewash, a means to an end, an excuse to pursue their real agenda: to keep loose women from engaging in immoral behavior without consequences. The risk of pregnancy makes unmarried women keep their knees together; abortion reduces that risk; therefore abortion encourages immoral behavior and THAT is the reason you oppose it, not because it kills unborn babies.

That reason why you would make an exception for rape is logical and makes sense. (After all, it's not the woman's fault she's pregnant if she was raped.) You, on the other hand, have offered NO REASON AT ALL to make such an exception. You say you have one that we would not understand. I say, you don't know that until you try.

So let's hear it. Why make an exception for rape? Other than the reason I gave above, that is.

Bolded: That's the hope, anyway. Desperate women will then resort to back alley abortions, coat hangers, and/or whatever else works. Suicide, for instance.

Probably wouldn't happen all that often on the suicide front, but I guarandamntee you that the pregnant woman will do all in her power not to remain so.

 

[BDBoop]

My daughter...if she gets pregnant, she will be having the baby and likely either I would raise it or we'd find a loving family to raise it.

I don't know who you're quoting, but does he have any idea what pregnancy does to a body? Not to mention, she would not only go through it, but then be (in all likelihood) forced to give up the one she just spent nine months bonding with?

My daughter is "out to there" right now. Her third. She's 30, so that helps. But babies suck the living daylights out of the one carrying them. She's in some form of pain, discomfort, or nausea some solid measure of the time. She's tired ALL the time. But yeah, let's just force - well, what did Obama say on the subject?

"But it should also include — it should also include other, you know, information about contraception because, look, I’ve got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old," he added.

"I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby," Obama said.

I need to do some research. America can tend to be so insular - and we are a loooong way from having all the answers.

 

[Wicked Jester]

LMAO!......Pure fuckin' hogwash......Ya' see, you pro-lifers just want abortion dumps.....Regardless of reason.......I can reason clearly for the three extenuating circumstances......You people can't reason for anything.......The last paragraph of your drivel doesn't even make fucking sense

Now, why are you cherry picking, like all pro-choicers do, and refusing to address the fathers rights questions?........Yeah, we know why!

If you can see reason for those exceptions, why don't you articulate it? I explained above why, if you really believe that an embryo is a person from conception and that abortion is murder, you would not make an exception for rape. Didn't understand? I'll explain it again.

The embryo is innocent of any crime. We do not punish children, capitally or otherwise, for the crimes of their parents. To kill the child of a rapist is just as much murder as to kill the child of an innocent person.

Now, I also explained why I think a lot of anti-abortion people do make an exception for rape. They don't really care about protecting the unborn. That's just a whitewash, a means to an end, an excuse to pursue their real agenda: to keep loose women from engaging in immoral behavior without consequences. The risk of pregnancy makes unmarried women keep their knees together; abortion reduces that risk; therefore abortion encourages immoral behavior and THAT is the reason you oppose it, not because it kills unborn babies.

That reason why you would make an exception for rape is logical and makes sense. (After all, it's not the woman's fault she's pregnant if she was raped.) You, on the other hand, have offered NO REASON AT ALL to make such an exception. You say you have one that we would not understand. I say, you don't know that until you try.

So let's hear it. Why make an exception for rape? Other than the reason I gave above, that is.

Why make an exception for rape?......Because the woman was brutally assaulted against her will.....The mindfuck of rape, and having to carry that baby for 9 months is enough for me to justify my belief.

Now, why are you refusing to address the rights of the father when it comes time to chop that innocent life into lil' pieces, summarily suck it out of the womb, and toss it away like yesterdays garbage?

Are you one of those ignorant fucks who believe the father is nothing more than a tool used for conception, and only has rights when it comes down to being the cash cow after birth?

It's laughable that you pro-choicer loons never want to address that issue.....After all, life begins at conception, and it takes two to tango. The father is just as important in creating that life as the mother. It's the fathers child also. 50/50 responsibility....Once that woman decides to spread her legs, unless she's an idiot, damn sure nows the potential to harbor life in that womb is there.

 

[Dragon]

Why make an exception for rape?......Because the woman was brutally assaulted against her will.....The mindfuck of rape, and having to carry that baby for 9 months is enough for me to justify my belief.

How so? Granted, it's hard on the rape victim to have to carry that child to term on top of being raped in the first place, and I would certainly have no problem with her terminating the pregnancy, but that's me. I don't think the embryo is a person yet. But you say you do, which means that aborting it is murder. If you have to choose between inflicting psychological trauma on a rape victim and committing murder, wouldn't you choose the lesser evil?

Now, why are you refusing to address the rights of the father

All right, I'll address those rights. The father has no say in the matter that the mother doesn't choose to grant him. That's because, until the fetus becomes a baby and is actually born, her stake in it is far greater. She's the one who has to endure the hardships and risks of pregnancy. Once it's an actual baby, I'm all for protecting the rights of both parents, as well as the responsibilities of both, but as far as the decision to abort or not, that's properly the mother's only. Unless she chooses to grant the father a say in the matter, of course.

By the way, I paid child support for my two daughters for more than twenty years. I also had full visitation rights, and plenty of input into their school and career choices (although those were ultimately neither mine nor their mother's, but theirs). Be careful what assumptions you jump to.

 

[Amadoos]

I like it but I am for only giving ithe babies to Muslim families.

So they can rape them?

There is an exception for rape explained very well here.

Muslims can rape babies?

 

[Wicked Jester]

Why make an exception for rape?......Because the woman was brutally assaulted against her will.....The mindfuck of rape, and having to carry that baby for 9 months is enough for me to justify my belief.

How so? Granted, it's hard on the rape victim to have to carry that child to term on top of being raped in the first place, and I would certainly have no problem with her terminating the pregnancy, but that's me. I don't think the embryo is a person yet. But you say you do, which means that aborting it is murder. If you have to choose between inflicting psychological trauma on a rape victim and committing murder, wouldn't you choose the lesser evil?

Now, why are you refusing to address the rights of the father

All right, I'll address those rights. The father has no say in the matter that the mother doesn't choose to grant him. That's because, until the fetus becomes a baby and is actually born, her stake in it is far greater. She's the one who has to endure the hardships and risks of pregnancy. Once it's an actual baby, I'm all for protecting the rights of both parents, as well as the responsibilities of both, but as far as the decision to abort or not, that's properly the mother's only. Unless she chooses to grant the father a say in the matter, of course.

By the way, I paid child support for my two daughters for more than twenty years. I also had full visitation rights, and plenty of input into their school and career choices (although those were ultimately neither mine nor their mother's, but theirs). Be careful what assumptions you jump to.

So, the father IS just a tool in the creation of life, even though BOTH the female and male willingly took the risk, full well knowing the possible outcome, and full well knowing the male plays an equal role in the equation of creating human life........Thanks for playin'!

Btw, I believe that embryo is human life, and wantonely exterminating it because it's a pain in the ass to the woman, or man, is fucking ridiculous......Exterminating simply because you don't want the responsibility of carrying it, or raising it, is fuckin' sick to the core.

 

[Amadoos]

People who are against abortions shouldn't have abortions. Problem solved.

 

[koshergrl]

It's one of those things, abortion is a personal health issue. Women leave my prostate alone, I don’t tell them what to do with their uterus. Like that.

Does your prostrate have and genetic coding to develop into a living breathing human being? If removed from your body at some point will it continue to develop on its own into a human being?

Why no, it won't. So strawman,l red herring, falsch dictonomy and completely ireelevant.

 

[koshergrl]

My daughter...if she gets pregnant, she will be having the baby and likely either I would raise it or we'd find a loving family to raise it.

I don't know who you're quoting, but does he have any idea what pregnancy does to a body? Not to mention, she would not only go through it, but then be (in all likelihood) forced to give up the one she just spent nine months bonding with?

My daughter is "out to there" right now. Her third. She's 30, so that helps. But babies suck the living daylights out of the one carrying them. She's in some form of pain, discomfort, or nausea some solid measure of the time. She's tired ALL the time. But yeah, let's just force - well, what did Obama say on the subject?

"But it should also include — it should also include other, you know, information about contraception because, look, I’ve got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old," he added.

"I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby," Obama said.

I need to do some research. America can tend to be so insular - and we are a loooong way from having all the answers.

Thank you for bringing that up.

It is, after all, the left's position that women are "punished" with children. It's rather biblical, actually. Are you a fundie Christian?

Yes, pregancy is risky. So is abortion. So is smoking. So is driving a car. So is caring for an elderly parent. There are things that go wtih life. and just becaue you're a miserable person who thinks your own life is more valuable than the life of others does NOT give you the right to terminate those lives. We all have to live with circumstances and people we would really rather not have to endure. Pssst...you don't get to kill them off. You get to suck it up, live with your choices, make the best of them, and muddle through as best you can since man has done since time immemoriable. Just because you're tired (snif) and have to work (double snif) and your life is not 100 percent joy 100 percent of the time, does not give you the right to eliminate your responsibilities. You don't get to kill people becuase they annoy you, because they drain you, or because you don't want to fund them.

I'm sure your daughter is cheered by your statements that you view her child as a burden and a nuisance...I'm sure that's very helpful in alleviating the stress she is feelingn right now. I can tell you right now, you want to guarantee post partum depression, the best way to do it is to tell women who otherwise would be looking forward to their birth of their children that they shouldn't have the child, that their lives will be made miserable by the addition of another child, and that everybody is bummed because they're having another child.

Way to help those mom's out! Good luck with that.

I can tell you also the best way to make sure a pregnant woman suffers from anxiety and guilt during her pregnancy...keep telling her how bummed you are that shes pregnant, and what a tragedy it is. That's sure to help the situation.

 

[koshergrl]

And for the record, I would never force my child to give up a child. Ever. I would support her implicitely in her decision to keep it, and I would provide all the support necessary to help her be a successful mother. And I wuoldn't doing that by telling her horror stories of the terrible tole pregnancy takes on a body, or threaten her with forcing her to give up her childre or have it ripped from her body, either.

thanks, I've had 4 children. The ones I had young weren't the ones who gave me difficulty, incidentally, adn that is true of most mothers. Usually, each subsequent child is a little more difficult and risky. Birth is risky. So is abortion.