Abortion, expanded

[Anguille]

Abortion bans devalue the value of female life.
.

Do elaborate and demonstrate. What about the unborn female life?

It forces women to become incubators against their will. Banning abortion means creating a situation in which a woman can be enslaved.
Fetuses and embryos do not have the capacity to survive outside the womb. They hare "handicapped' in that way. Forcing one human being to carry another is slavery.

Pregnancy should always be a choice, otherwise the act of giving birth to another human being is denigrated and perverted into something inhuman and immoral.

 

[Anguille]

An innocent being is a being who has done no wrong. They are entitled to protection because it is the job of the strong to protect them so they aren't killed or exploited.

Are women innocent beings? Are they entitled to protection so they aren't exploited?

I have yet to meet an innocent woman!!!

Yet, they are entitled to protections just as even a criminal is entitled to certain protections.

Immie

LOL!! But there are some who believe women are not innocent. Particularly if they are not virgins.

 

[Anguille]

Can we all agree that, for the purposes of this discussion, 'rape' shall refer specifically to forcible rape or other sexual assault or abuse against the victim's will?

Good luck getting anyone to agree to anything.

 

[Anguille]

Abortion is for people who aren't limited by an intellectual straight-jacket of random morality. It's just another human, there are 6 billion+ already and we're heading for 9 billion+ by mid-century. You folks have your heads screwed on wrong, save every last person but who cares how many other species go extinct? Time to get of the human ego trip of being such superior beings. We're a real danger to all the other species out there.

"Random morality" Thank you, that is exactly the phrase that describes how this idea that if abortion is killing babies, killing some is OK, appears to me.

 

[Newby]

Abortion constitutionally devalues the value of human life no matter how it's applied under whatever circumstances. It should never have become an expressed right because it challenges a human being's right of procreation, but only if it is desires, which actually undermines the integrity of procreation and the inherent rights of that child.

Anne Marie

Abortion bans devalue the value of female life.

The rest of your post in incoherent.

What do you call aborting a female baby then?

 

[Immanuel]

So you are saying that there are certain cases where it would be okay to terminate a pregnancy or deprive a child of it's life, as you put it? What sort of cases would you imagine that to be acceptable for you? Is the immediate threat to the life of the mother the only exception? Are there any others?

I suppose that would depend on your definition of "okay".

To me it is never "okay" to take a human life. If it were me (and I am male so maybe this is easier for me to say than if I were a woman) I would never make the decision to take the life of the unborn child within me under any circumstance... I suppose if I am honest about that though, if my life were in danger I might "chicken out" and fight for my own life.

But, as I have attempted to state, a child who is a rape victim may be an exception to that rule depending on the circumstances.

One other exception that I can think of would be the imminent death of the fetus anyway as in the case of the genetic case where the brain does not form. I didn't want to look up the name of the condition but I think it is Hydrocephilitis or something like that.

Okay to deprive human life? No... but reality speaks that there are certain conditions that must be allowed for.

Allie didn't give answer my part of the question to you concerning innocent beings who are especially more innocent. Do you consider adults to be innocent? Would an 11 year old child possibly be be innocent?

I don't think I said anything about anyone being "more innocent" so I am not certain what you are asking.

As for an 11 year old being innocent, they would be innocent of beginning the life of the unborn child. The 11 year old mother-to-be did not make the decision to have sex and risk bringing another child into the world, it was forced upon her. Whereas in the vast majority of abortions the mother is a "co-conspirator" in the starting of the life.

No problem about not being around earlier. No one really has any obligation to post. I appreciate that you answer my questions sincerely and without trying to derail the conversation with inflammatory language. I truly want to know how anti-abortionists can reconcile the "killing of the baby" of a rape victim with their belief that all fetuses and/or embryos have a right to life. The making exceptions thing has always seemed hypocritical to me, but maybe that's because no one has been able to explain it properly.

I can't "reconcile" the killing of a baby even for the cases described above, but neither do I believe that I am God and have the right to make those kinds of decisions for other people. I do, however, believe that I have the right to speak my mind and defend the life of the unborn.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Pregnancy should always be a choice, otherwise the act of giving birth to another human being is denigrated and perverted into something inhuman and immoral.

That is the point, pregnancy is a choice and this also relates to your question about reconciling rape cases. The difference between your point of view and mine is when is that choice made. I believe the choice is made at the point of having sex. You believe that choice can be made up until a certain progression of the life of the child.

Immie

PS In that statement I'm not stating that either one of us is right or wrong.

 

[Immanuel]

Are women innocent beings? Are they entitled to protection so they aren't exploited?

I have yet to meet an innocent woman!!!

Yet, they are entitled to protections just as even a criminal is entitled to certain protections.

Immie

LOL!! But there are some who believe women are not innocent. Particularly if they are not virgins.

Didn't I just say, "I have yet to meet an innocent woman"? I would be one of those who believe such.

Immie

 

[Newby]

why wouldn't the child to be of a raped woman still be a separate human beings life to save?

This is something no anti-abortionist who allows exceptions has ever been able to explain to me.

I don't see why that is such a difficult question to answer. It is a separate human being, and it is not at fault for what happened to it's mother. The mother isn't forced into servitude and has the option to give the child up for adoption w/o ever even having seen him/her. Life is not fair in many various ways, I don't think carrying a child for nine months so that it may live is necessarily fair, but it beats murdering the baby. Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[Immanuel]

why wouldn't the child to be of a raped woman still be a separate human beings life to save?

This is something no anti-abortionist who allows exceptions has ever been able to explain to me.

I don't see why that is such a difficult question to answer. It is a separate human being, and it is not at fault for what happened to it's mother. The mother isn't forced into servitude and has the option to give the child up for adoption w/o ever even having seen him/her. Life is not fair in many various ways, I don't think carrying a child for nine months so that it may live is necessarily fair, but it beats murdering the baby. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Looks like you missed part of the discussion.

Anguille's question is, "how can a person who is pro-life reconcile the exception in case of rape?". Her question was not if it was right or wrong, but rather how can someone like me, reconcile the rape exception.

Immie

 

[Anguille]

So you are saying that there are certain cases where it would be okay to terminate a pregnancy or deprive a child of it's life, as you put it? What sort of cases would you imagine that to be acceptable for you? Is the immediate threat to the life of the mother the only exception? Are there any others?

I suppose that would depend on your definition of "okay".

To me it is never "okay" to take a human life. If it were me (and I am male so maybe this is easier for me to say than if I were a woman) I would never make the decision to take the life of the unborn child within me under any circumstance... I suppose if I am honest about that though, if my life were in danger I might "chicken out" and fight for my own life.

But, as I have attempted to state, a child who is a rape victim may be an exception to that rule depending on the circumstances.

Why would a child who is a rape victim have the right to take the life of another "child"?

One other exception that I can think of would be the imminent death of the fetus anyway as in the case of the genetic case where the brain does not form. I didn't want to look up the name of the condition but I think it is Hydrocephilitis or something like that.

Okay to deprive human life? No... but reality speaks that there are certain conditions that must be allowed for.[/quote}I somewhat agree with that. I on the contrary, do think it's ok to take human life in certain situations and not only in cases of abortion. Reality speaks, that is true, It's reality that fetuses and embryos are formed inside a woman's body and are therefore dependent on whether or not she wants to keep them there. It's reality that men cannnot bear children. Someday in the future it maybe possible to create embryos in a test tube and grow them from fetus to fully formed human without ever having to make use of a woman's body. Till then, they will be incubated and born at the discretion of the person whose body they inhabit.

Allie didn't give answer my part of the question to you concerning innocent beings who are especially more innocent. Do you consider adults to be innocent? Would an 11 year old child possibly be be innocent?

I don't think I said anything about anyone being "more innocent" so I am not certain what you are asking.

And as a side note: a person may even be deprived of the right to life, but no constitutional right trumps the right to life especially the right to life of an innocent being.

I think I must have misunderstood what you said above and thought you meant some people were more innocent than others.

As for an 11 year old being innocent, they would be innocent of beginning the life of the unborn child. The 11 year old mother-to-be did not make the decision to have sex and risk bringing another child into the world, it was forced upon her. Whereas in the vast majority of abortions the mother is a "co-conspirator" in the starting of the life.

I hardly think the vast majority of women and men are "conspiring" to become pregnant when they have sex. I think they are conspiring to enjoy themselves. Something some people think is deserving of punishment in the form of a forced birth.

No problem about not being around earlier. No one really has any obligation to post. I appreciate that you answer my questions sincerely and without trying to derail the conversation with inflammatory language. I truly want to know how anti-abortionists can reconcile the "killing of the baby" of a rape victim with their belief that all fetuses and/or embryos have a right to life. The making exceptions thing has always seemed hypocritical to me, but maybe that's because no one has been able to explain it properly.

I can't "reconcile" the killing of a baby even for the cases described above, but neither do I believe that I am God and have the right to make those kinds of decisions for other people. I do, however, believe that I have the right to speak my mind and defend the life of the unborn.

Immie

I would never presume to make the choice for another person. I am glad to hear you speak your mind, since you do so so intelligently, humorously and thoughtfully. I speak mine in defense of women, our society and the environment and also in defense of those unfortunate creatures that result when people force women to become breed cows.

 

[Grigorio]

Abortion is homicide?

Noun

S: (n) homicide (the killing of a human being by another human being)

Like I said, you're being trapped by an intellectual straight-jacket of random morality, your religion.

How about addressing my points instead of firing your 'standard ammunition' at the wrong target? That you have no intelligent response, but instead raw assumptions about my beliefs and then seek to attack them, reveals the total lack of meaningful thought on your part.

If you can prove that the bible or other religious books actually is the words of god, and that god really exists to have dictated these books, then maybe I'll agree with you.

What I have said in no way rests upon the validity of any religious text. Now, why don't you answer my question: do you extend this logic to all instances of homicide? What about rape and theft? -or do you only apply it when and where it suits your purposes or serves your personal agenda or backs the position you wish to be correct?

Otherwise, saving humans while eating all other species is hypocritical.

Do feel free to attempt to demonstrate any hypocrisy in avoiding cannibalism while consuming the flesh of other animals. I trust tyou will have a hard time of it.

It forces women to become incubators against their will.

Do you care to demonstrate how telling a woman she may not kill another human is devaluing said woman's life?

Banning abortion means creating a situation in which a woman can be enslaved.

Are you always this disingenuous?

Fetuses and embryos do not have the capacity to survive outside the womb.

Nor can you survive underwater, nor can you survive on your own for several years after birth.m I'm still waiting for you to show how the woman's life is devalued.

They hare "handicapped' in that way.

Are you arguing that we should kill the handicapped, lest they be a drain and all members of society be enslaved and forced to support them in some way?

Forcing one human being to carry another is slavery.

You might have a very dull point if we were keeping women in cages and forcibly breeding them, but we are not- at leasr not to my knowledge. What we are discussing is the killing of a human being for the convenience of another. Do try to stay on topic and maintain some sense of rationality, if you can.

Pregnancy should always be a choice

Whether to engage in sex should be a choice. Whether to end another human life because you find it to be an inconvenience is not and should never be- for it devalues all human life.

 

[Anguille]

I have yet to meet an innocent woman!!!

Yet, they are entitled to protections just as even a criminal is entitled to certain protections.

Immie

LOL!! But there are some who believe women are not innocent. Particularly if they are not virgins.

Didn't I just say, "I have yet to meet an innocent woman"? I would be one of those who believe such.

Immie

I got your joke. My point is that some really do think women are guilty of something just by being women. I hope that's not what you meant?

 

[BrokenAngel]

why wouldn't the child to be of a raped woman still be a separate human beings life to save?

This is something no anti-abortionist who allows exceptions has ever been able to explain to me.

I don't see why that is such a difficult question to answer. It is a separate human being, and it is not at fault for what happened to it's mother. The mother isn't forced into servitude and has the option to give the child up for adoption w/o ever even having seen him/her. Life is not fair in many various ways, I don't think carrying a child for nine months so that it may live is necessarily fair, but it beats murdering the baby. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Two wrongs might not make a right BUT have you ever been pregnant? I don't know where the movie industry gets the idea that women love being pregnant because I wouldn't mind taking a bullet to the skull atm. LOL The end product is a blast yes, but a woman who has been raped then forced to endure pregnancy is wrong ( though in all honesty she should have gone out and gotten the morning after pill the morning after ).

For those of you who don't know imagine the worst gas you have ever had, where your body feels like it is going to explode if any more pressure builds yet somehow you manage to stay in one piece day after day. Your pelvic region feels like it has been kicked so often the bone is bruised and your thighs and hips ache every time you walk. Your lower and mid back, from about your tailbone up to near your shoulder blades aches day in and day out. You are exhausted what feels like every minute of every day and when you do get to sleep good luck actually sleeping because the instant you lay down is the moment the little one decides to wake up inside you and start kicking and moving. In the beginning this movement is light flutters, but after about month 6 of the 10 month experience each individual organ becomes a punching bag. Even if you do get to sleep you wake up a couple hours later having to pee because the sweet little one decided to jump on your bladder.

Now add to that the stretch marks, the hormonal fluctuations, the fact that you can't take any kind of pain killer aside from a small amount of tylenol, the wardrobe you have to pay for ( shirts, pants, underware, bras, and shoes ), and the fact that if you were raped you don't have a significant other there to help you, occasionally pamper you and tell you that you are beautiful despite the extra 30 pounds you put on. I don't know.. I love my son and I will love the second one I am pregnant with but I don't wish pregnancy on a woman who as the right to choose lol. I can MORE than understand why a woman who was raped wouldn't want to go through that experience.

Yes the child may be an innocent in this situation but should the mother be forced to live through a life changing hell on top of the rape as well?

 

[Newby]

Isn't that what forced birth, by means of denying access to abortion, is? Involuntary servitude? In other words, slavery?

Not if the woman chose to have sex. With that choice, it becomes voluntary.

Sex is voluntary. Pregnancy is involuntary. Women cannot tell their eggs to stay away from sperm. All they can do is take preventative measures to try and insure that they never meet up. Sometimes those measures fail or are not taken. Having sex is not a agreement to carry a pregnancy to term.

I disgree with you completely. Every woman knows the potential consequences of having sex. If you don't want the consequences, then don't do the activity that creates the consequences. On the other hand, I think the same rule applies to men, but of course their consequences are somewhat different in that they are more financial than anything else. There is always adoption.

Also, as someone stated previously, with all of the methods of birth control out today and the availability of it to anyone in any financial situation, there is no excuse for the number of abortions in this country. It's being used as birth control, which is disgusting.

 

[Anguille]

This is something no anti-abortionist who allows exceptions has ever been able to explain to me.

I don't see why that is such a difficult question to answer. It is a separate human being, and it is not at fault for what happened to it's mother. The mother isn't forced into servitude and has the option to give the child up for adoption w/o ever even having seen him/her. Life is not fair in many various ways, I don't think carrying a child for nine months so that it may live is necessarily fair, but it beats murdering the baby. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Two wrongs might not make a right BUT have you ever been pregnant? I don't know where the movie industry gets the idea that women love being pregnant because I wouldn't mind taking a bullet to the skull atm. LOL The end product is a blast yes, but a woman who has been raped then forced to endure pregnancy is wrong ( though in all honesty she should have gone out and gotten the morning after pill the morning after ).

For those of you who don't know imagine the worst gas you have ever had, where your body feels like it is going to explode if any more pressure builds yet somehow you manage to stay in one piece day after day. Your pelvic region feels like it has been kicked so often the bone is bruised and your thighs and hips ache every time you walk. Your lower and mid back, from about your tailbone up to near your shoulder blades aches day in and day out. You are exhausted what feels like every minute of every day and when you do get to sleep good luck actually sleeping because the instant you lay down is the moment the little one decides to wake up inside you and start kicking and moving. In the beginning this movement is light flutters, but after about month 6 of the 10 month experience each individual organ becomes a punching bag. Even if you do get to sleep you wake up a couple hours later having to pee because the sweet little one decided to jump on your bladder.

Now add to that the stretch marks, the hormonal fluctuations, the fact that you can't take any kind of pain killer aside from a small amount of tylenol, the wardrobe you have to pay for ( shirts, pants, underware, bras, and shoes ), and the fact that if you were raped you don't have a significant other there to help you, occasionally pamper you and tell you that you are beautiful despite the extra 30 pounds you put on. I don't know.. I love my son and I will love the second one I am pregnant with but I don't wish pregnancy on a woman who as the right to choose lol. I can MORE than understand why a woman who was raped wouldn't want to go through that experience.

Yes the child may be an innocent in this situation but should the mother be forced to live through a life changing hell on top of the rape as well?

I always wonder where people get this idea that pregnancy is a walk in the park? LOL!

It seems to me that forcing a woman to bear a child is a kind of rape in itself.

 

[Anguille]

Pregnancy should always be a choice, otherwise the act of giving birth to another human being is denigrated and perverted into something inhuman and immoral.

That is the point, pregnancy is a choice and this also relates to your question about reconciling rape cases. The difference between your point of view and mine is when is that choice made. I believe the choice is made at the point of having sex. You believe that choice can be made up until a certain progression of the life of the child.

Immie

PS In that statement I'm not stating that either one of us is right or wrong.

I just wonder why you would think having sex is some sort of promise to bear a child? Do you think the purpose of sex is for child bearing only?

 

[Newby]

Abortion bans devalue the value of female life.
.

Do elaborate and demonstrate. What about the unborn female life?

It forces women to become incubators against their will. Banning abortion means creating a situation in which a woman can be enslaved.
Fetuses and embryos do not have the capacity to survive outside the womb. They hare "handicapped' in that way. Forcing one human being to carry another is slavery.

Pregnancy should always be a choice, otherwise the act of giving birth to another human being is denigrated and perverted into something inhuman and immoral.

You make the 'choice' when you have sex, that's the reality. You just seem to think you can deny reality and argue from some other position outside of it.

 

[Newby]

This is something no anti-abortionist who allows exceptions has ever been able to explain to me.

I don't see why that is such a difficult question to answer. It is a separate human being, and it is not at fault for what happened to it's mother. The mother isn't forced into servitude and has the option to give the child up for adoption w/o ever even having seen him/her. Life is not fair in many various ways, I don't think carrying a child for nine months so that it may live is necessarily fair, but it beats murdering the baby. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Looks like you missed part of the discussion.

Anguille's question is, "how can a person who is pro-life reconcile the exception in case of rape?". Her question was not if it was right or wrong, but rather how can someone like me, reconcile the rape exception.

Immie

Well, I wonder how anyone can advocate the murder of unborn children, so guess that makes us even.

 

[Grigorio]

I just wonder why you would think having sex is some sort of promise to bear a child? Do you think the purpose of sex is for child bearing only?

The concepts of personal responsibility and the value of human life are totally alien to you, aren't they?