Abortion, expanded

[Newby]

This is something no anti-abortionist who allows exceptions has ever been able to explain to me.

I don't see why that is such a difficult question to answer. It is a separate human being, and it is not at fault for what happened to it's mother. The mother isn't forced into servitude and has the option to give the child up for adoption w/o ever even having seen him/her. Life is not fair in many various ways, I don't think carrying a child for nine months so that it may live is necessarily fair, but it beats murdering the baby. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Two wrongs might not make a right BUT have you ever been pregnant? I don't know where the movie industry gets the idea that women love being pregnant because I wouldn't mind taking a bullet to the skull atm. LOL The end product is a blast yes, but a woman who has been raped then forced to endure pregnancy is wrong ( though in all honesty she should have gone out and gotten the morning after pill the morning after ).

For those of you who don't know imagine the worst gas you have ever had, where your body feels like it is going to explode if any more pressure builds yet somehow you manage to stay in one piece day after day. Your pelvic region feels like it has been kicked so often the bone is bruised and your thighs and hips ache every time you walk. Your lower and mid back, from about your tailbone up to near your shoulder blades aches day in and day out. You are exhausted what feels like every minute of every day and when you do get to sleep good luck actually sleeping because the instant you lay down is the moment the little one decides to wake up inside you and start kicking and moving. In the beginning this movement is light flutters, but after about month 6 of the 10 month experience each individual organ becomes a punching bag. Even if you do get to sleep you wake up a couple hours later having to pee because the sweet little one decided to jump on your bladder.

Now add to that the stretch marks, the hormonal fluctuations, the fact that you can't take any kind of pain killer aside from a small amount of tylenol, the wardrobe you have to pay for ( shirts, pants, underware, bras, and shoes ), and the fact that if you were raped you don't have a significant other there to help you, occasionally pamper you and tell you that you are beautiful despite the extra 30 pounds you put on. I don't know.. I love my son and I will love the second one I am pregnant with but I don't wish pregnancy on a woman who as the right to choose lol. I can MORE than understand why a woman who was raped wouldn't want to go through that experience.

Yes the child may be an innocent in this situation but should the mother be forced to live through a life changing hell on top of the rape as well?

Yes, I have been thru three pregnancies, I know exactly what they are like, not only that all three of them were C-sections and it was a difficult recovery. Being inconvenienced for a few months feeling uncomfortable is not a viable excuse for murder of a child.

 

[Anguille]

I just wonder why you would think having sex is some sort of promise to bear a child? Do you think the purpose of sex is for child bearing only?

The concepts of personal responsibility and the value of human life are totally alien to you, aren't they?

I think they seem to be alien to you.

Now go away little troll. Your type of accusatory posts and deliberate avoidance of fair questions does not interest me. Pass that on to Newby too, if you don't mind.

 

[Newby]

I just wonder why you would think having sex is some sort of promise to bear a child? Do you think the purpose of sex is for child bearing only?

The concepts of personal responsibility and the value of human life are totally alien to you, aren't they?

I think they seem to be alien to you.

Now go away little troll. Your type of accusatory posts and deliberate avoidance of fair questions does not interest me. Pass that on to Newby too, if you don't mind.

Why do you take that attitude? Can you not address them, is that the problem?

 

[Care4all]

This is something no anti-abortionist who allows exceptions has ever been able to explain to me.

I don't see why that is such a difficult question to answer. It is a separate human being, and it is not at fault for what happened to it's mother. The mother isn't forced into servitude and has the option to give the child up for adoption w/o ever even having seen him/her. Life is not fair in many various ways, I don't think carrying a child for nine months so that it may live is necessarily fair, but it beats murdering the baby. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Two wrongs might not make a right BUT have you ever been pregnant? I don't know where the movie industry gets the idea that women love being pregnant because I wouldn't mind taking a bullet to the skull atm. LOL The end product is a blast yes, but a woman who has been raped then forced to endure pregnancy is wrong ( though in all honesty she should have gone out and gotten the morning after pill the morning after ).

For those of you who don't know imagine the worst gas you have ever had, where your body feels like it is going to explode if any more pressure builds yet somehow you manage to stay in one piece day after day. Your pelvic region feels like it has been kicked so often the bone is bruised and your thighs and hips ache every time you walk. Your lower and mid back, from about your tailbone up to near your shoulder blades aches day in and day out. You are exhausted what feels like every minute of every day and when you do get to sleep good luck actually sleeping because the instant you lay down is the moment the little one decides to wake up inside you and start kicking and moving. In the beginning this movement is light flutters, but after about month 6 of the 10 month experience each individual organ becomes a punching bag. Even if you do get to sleep you wake up a couple hours later having to pee because the sweet little one decided to jump on your bladder.

Now add to that the stretch marks, the hormonal fluctuations, the fact that you can't take any kind of pain killer aside from a small amount of tylenol, the wardrobe you have to pay for ( shirts, pants, underware, bras, and shoes ), and the fact that if you were raped you don't have a significant other there to help you, occasionally pamper you and tell you that you are beautiful despite the extra 30 pounds you put on. I don't know.. I love my son and I will love the second one I am pregnant with but I don't wish pregnancy on a woman who as the right to choose lol. I can MORE than understand why a woman who was raped wouldn't want to go through that experience.

Yes the child may be an innocent in this situation but should the mother be forced to live through a life changing hell on top of the rape as well?

No, she should NOT have to go through this unless she is willing to do such.

But Angel...doesn't this mean that it is you and I determining whether a woman should be "punished" with her delivery because she chose to have sex?

How do we know each woman's circumstance?

And what gives us the right to even say, "it is okay for you to kill your baby to be" because you did not have fun while creating it and were forced in to such, but if you did have fun or you did make the choice to have sex, then you need to be punished with..."all that you listed above" that takes place during the pregnancy?

It's a punishment, for doing the "naughty"...isn't it? It's the "Scarlett Letter" that some seem to want pinned to the single out of wedlock, pregnant woman? Doesn't this type of thinking appear that way?

HOW do we know each persons circumstance and why do we get to pick which circumstance is acceptable to us individually, at all...? WHEN it is the person faced with this choice, that has to live with the consequences, and that may have had another circumstance besides rape, that still was as traumatic or personal or even not morally acceptable to them, and the father to be and their minister or rabbi or counselor and Doctor all helped this person come to their decision on what to do? Why should the government CHOOSE for them?

I am against abortion, it hurts some women MORE than the 9 months pregnancy would have...these are all consequences of their own actions.

I don't think abortion is homicide or murder like these others...I believe one has to be BORN before they can be murdered, or at least be a viable fetus, that could be born alive, before one can call it murder or homicide...I do believe it could be called feticide, as example, if an outraged man beat or hurt the pregnant woman to where her baby miscarried....but that's just me....

For religious purposes, I believe when Adam was given his first BREATH, that God Breathed LIFE in to him, as the Bible states....life begins for humans when they are BORN and take their first breath, the Breath of Life..

This does not mean that the fetus is not 'alive' inside a pregnant woman because it most certainly is and without the embryo/fetus stage of gestation, NONE of us would be here! NONE! so the Fetus DOES have great worth as a developing human offspring...thus the reason to personally being against abortion.

But I don't draw the line for others...I don't know how to do such, without getting in to the nitty gritty of their own personal circumstances?

Care

 

[Grigorio]

I just wonder why you would think having sex is some sort of promise to bear a child? Do you think the purpose of sex is for child bearing only?

The concepts of personal responsibility and the value of human life are totally alien to you, aren't they?

I think they seem to be alien to you.

Really, now? Remind me again which of us has been attempting to argue that homicide is justifiable simply because someone else find a person's existence to be an inconvenience?

Now go away little troll. Your type of accusatory posts

You might have had a point if I'd accused you of anything. However, I have not, and it is clear that you merely seek to avoid defending your statements, assertions, and general position.

and deliberate avoidance of fair questions

How can I avoid that which was never asked?

I accept your concession that your position and earlier statements are all indefensible.

 

[Immanuel]

Why would a child who is a rape victim have the right to take the life of another "child"?

I didn't say she had the right to do so.

I said that I can see the need to do so. There is a difference. Sometimes we need to do things that are wrong but must be done. President Bush justified the war in Iraq under the same kind of premise. Many people didn't agree with him on that, but, it was still done.

I somewhat agree with that. I on the contrary, do think it's ok to take human life in certain situations and not only in cases of abortion. Reality speaks, that is true, It's reality that fetuses and embryos are formed inside a woman's body and are therefore dependent on whether or not she wants to keep them there. It's reality that men cannnot bear children. Someday in the future it maybe possible to create embryos in a test tube and grow them from fetus to fully formed human without ever having to make use of a woman's body. Till then, they will be incubated and born at the discretion of the person whose body they inhabit.

That does not excuse the taking of human life.

I think I must have misunderstood what you said above and thought you meant some people were more innocent than others. I hardly think the vast majority of women and men are "conspiring" to become pregnant when they have sex. I think they are conspiring to enjoy themselves. Something some people think is deserving of punishment in the form of a forced birth.

No, the vast majority of couples who have abortions conspired to have sex and did so willingly and thus risked ending up pregnant. My belief is that if you are not willing to do the time... don't do the crime which flows with if you aren't willing to be a parent then damnit keep it in your pants.

I would never presume to make the choice for another person. I am glad to hear you speak their mind, since you do so so intelligently, humorously and thoughtfully. I speak mine in defense of women, our society and the envirnment and also in defense of those unfortunate creatures that result when people force women to become breed cows.

I take it you meant "I am glad to hear you speak 'your' mind". I never said that I speak "their" mind.

I also feel that I defend women and would take exception to anyone claiming otherwise. However, from what are we defending them?

Immie

 

[Grigorio]

No, she should NOT have to go through this unless she is willing to do such.

Do you assert that stretch marks, queasiness, weight gain... outweigh the preservation of human life? If so, I find your name unfitting, given that you seem to care little, if at all, about the lives of the unborn.

And what gives us the right to even say, "it is okay for you to kill your baby to be" because you did not have fun while creating it and were forced in to such, but if you did have fun or you did make the choice to have sex, then you need to be punished with..."all that you listed above" that takes place during the pregnancy?

I am slightly confused here. What is your position on this matter, exactly?

It's a punishment, for doing the "naughty"...isn't it?

Negative. To spin it in such a manner is disingenuous. The issue if the preservation of human life versus the preservation of convenience.

I am against abortion, it hurts some women MORE than the 9 months pregnancy would have...these are all consequences of their own actions.

Do explain

I don't think abortion is homicide

It is by definition.

or murder

By definition, it is only murder in some instances, generally starting in the 2nd trimester

like these others...I believe one has to be BORN before they can be murdered

You seem quite ignorant of the law

For religious purposes, I believe when Adam was given his first BREATH, that God Breathed LIFE in to him, as the Bible states....life begins for humans when they are BORN and take their first breath, the Breath of Life..

You do realize that this it totally at odds with when life really begins, right?

You have no opposition to shooting a child in the head after delivery, so long as it has not breathed? CAre to demonstarate how this makes the slightest bit of sense?

This does not mean that the fetus is not 'alive' inside a pregnant woman because it most certainly is

Do you always contradict yourself?

 

[Immanuel]

LOL!! But there are some who believe women are not innocent. Particularly if they are not virgins.

Didn't I just say, "I have yet to meet an innocent woman"? I would be one of those who believe such.

Immie

I got your joke. My point is that some really do think women are guilty of something just by being women. I hope that's not what you meant?

Well, since I believe in Original Sin, I think women are guilty.

Pregnancy should always be a choice, otherwise the act of giving birth to another human being is denigrated and perverted into something inhuman and immoral.

That is the point, pregnancy is a choice and this also relates to your question about reconciling rape cases. The difference between your point of view and mine is when is that choice made. I believe the choice is made at the point of having sex. You believe that choice can be made up until a certain progression of the life of the child.

Immie

PS In that statement I'm not stating that either one of us is right or wrong.

I just wonder why you would think having sex is some sort of promise to bear a child? Do you think the purpose of sex is for child bearing only?

It is not a promise. However, when a couple has sex they take the risk that a pregnancy will occur and in so doing accept the responsibility of their actions.

Well, I wonder how anyone can advocate the murder of unborn children, so guess that makes us even.

You know something, I completely agree. I can see that there are times when someone feels compelled to make a choice that is wrong. But to advocate the taking of life as if it were a right or a privilege is incomprehensible to me.

Immie

 

[Grigorio]

Well, since I believe in Original Sin, I think women are guilty.

Doesn't original sin make all guilty? Then children, stained with sin and not having knowingly chosen Jesus will go to the lake of fire, yes? And abortions send them there while depriving them of any chance of salvation?

 

[Immanuel]

Well, since I believe in Original Sin, I think women are guilty.

Doesn't original sin make all guilty? Then children, stained with sin and not having knowingly chosen Jesus will go to the lake of fire, yes? And abortions send them there while depriving them of any chance of salvation?

Yes, Original Sin makes all guilty.

Yes, Children are stained.

Where you and I differ is in the "chosing Jesus". I do not believe any of us can "chose Jesus". If we must chose Jesus that puts our salvation in our own hands and negates the power of the Blood of Christ. I believe Jesus must first chose us.

Now, about the eternal souls of the aborted... well, I don't know what provisions God has made for that, so I will have to wait and see.

Personally, I believe God has it all under control and being a compassionate God, I'm certain it will all turn out for the good.

Immie

 

[Grigorio]

Where you and I differ is in the "chosing Jesus". I do not believe any of us can "chose Jesus". If we must chose Jesus that puts our salvation in our own hands and negates the power of the Blood of Christ. I believe Jesus must first chose us.

Jesus taught that it was on each of us to accept that gift, although the bible also make sthe case that only thjose chosen by God will be drawn to him in the first place- thereby negating the choice itself and freewill and salvation altogether- but that's a whole other discussion

 

[Anguille]

I take it you meant "I am glad to hear you speak 'your' mind". I never said that I speak "their" mind.

I also feel that I defend women and would take exception to anyone claiming otherwise. However, from what are we defending them?

Immie

That was indeed a typo, Fixed.

But it does recall another argument antiabortionists use, that they are speaking the minds of creatures who are not even capable of thought as yet. Somehow, the will of these creatures conforms exactly to the agenda of the anti-abortionists, How convenient ...

I think that the woman caring the fetus/embryo is best qualified and has the right to make the decision of what is best for her and it.

 

[Immanuel]

I take it you meant "I am glad to hear you speak 'your' mind". I never said that I speak "their" mind.

I also feel that I defend women and would take exception to anyone claiming otherwise. However, from what are we defending them?

Immie

That was indeed a typo, Fixed.

But it does recall another argument antiabortionists use, that they are speaking the minds of creatures who are not even capable of thought as yet. Somehow, the will of these creatures conforms exactly to the agenda of the anti-abortionists, How convenient ...

I think that the woman caring the fetus/embryo is best qualified and has the right to make the decision of what is best for her and it.

I don't use that argument so can't really discuss it. However, I could say that I am defending those who do not yet have a voice.

Immie

 

[Anguille]

Why would a child who is a rape victim have the right to take the life of another "child"?

I didn't say she had the right to do so.

I said that I can see the need to do so. There is a difference. Sometimes we need to do things that are wrong but must be done. President Bush justified the war in Iraq under the same kind of premise. Many people didn't agree with him on that, but, it was still done.

So what would give her the right to fulfill her needs to "kill a baby"?

 

[Immanuel]

Why would a child who is a rape victim have the right to take the life of another "child"?

I didn't say she had the right to do so.

I said that I can see the need to do so. There is a difference. Sometimes we need to do things that are wrong but must be done. President Bush justified the war in Iraq under the same kind of premise. Many people didn't agree with him on that, but, it was still done.

So what would give her the right to fulfill her needs to "kill a baby"?

Her need to kill a baby?

Somehow that question seems extremely morbid.

Does a woman really have a need to kill a baby or any human being for that matter?

Immie

 

[Anguille]

.

. I hardly think the vast majority of women and men are "conspiring" to become pregnant when they have sex. I think they are conspiring to enjoy themselves. Something some people think is deserving of punishment in the form of a forced birth.

No, the vast majority of couples who have abortions conspired to have sex and did so willingly and thus risked ending up pregnant. My belief is that if you are not willing to do the time... don't do the crime which flows with if you aren't willing to be a parent then damnit keep it in your pants.

How would their taking a risk warrant depriving them of rectifying the undesired outcome of taking that risk?

So sex is a crime which should be punished?

Why is sex criminal?

 

[Centrism'sVoice]

What do the conditions contraception happened have to do with the fetus/embroyo and their purported right to life?

The woman's constitutional right not to be enslaved trumps the child's right to life. It's a Hobson's choice, but it's still morally correct. (And BTW, it's not to say that a rape victim can't birth the child of her own free will. Many such women have done so.)

Constitutional rights trump the right to life?

Sorry, but I can't agree with that.

Nor can I agree that the right to life can trump the right not to be enslaved. Apparently that's the point on which we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Immanuel]

.

. I hardly think the vast majority of women and men are "conspiring" to become pregnant when they have sex. I think they are conspiring to enjoy themselves. Something some people think is deserving of punishment in the form of a forced birth.

No, the vast majority of couples who have abortions conspired to have sex and did so willingly and thus risked ending up pregnant. My belief is that if you are not willing to do the time... don't do the crime which flows with if you aren't willing to be a parent then damnit keep it in your pants.

How would their taking a risk warrant depriving them of rectifying to undesired outcome of taking that risk?

So sex is a crime which should be punished?

Why is sex criminal?

I did not say sex was a crime. Generally when a individual choses to have sex they realize that there may be consequences with that choice. They conciously decide to take on those risks. Should the consequence of pregnancy materialize, they do not IMHO have the right to retify the situation by later chosing to kill the human being that is devoloping within the woman.

They had the right to chose whether or not to have sex and thus whether or not to become pregnant. They chose to take that risk at that point there is, or at least should be, no turning back.

Immie

 

[Grigorio]

Is Anguille always as disingenuous as in this thread?

 

[Anguille]

Didn't I just say, "I have yet to meet an innocent woman"? I would be one of those who believe such.

Immie

I got your joke. My point is that some really do think women are guilty of something just by being women. I hope that's not what you meant?

Well, since I believe in Original Sin, I think women are guilty.

So when do they become guilty with this original sin? At conception? At birth? When they start menstruation?

The concept of original sin seems to me to be a way to wrongfully condemn the innocent, since what ever this sin was, it was not committed by the parties being held responsible.

I just wonder why you would think having sex is some sort of promise to bear a child? Do you think the purpose of sex is for child bearing only?

It is not a promise. However, when a couple has sex they take the risk that a pregnancy will occur and in so doing accept the responsibility of their actions.

No getting the part where taking a risk is a promise. I think this is some figment of your imagination.

Terminating an unwanted pregnancy is being responsible. Finding yourself pregnant and then giving birth all the while knowing you will abandon your infant is not being responsible.