Abortion, expanded

[Grigorio]

Using birth control, not homicide, is being responsible.

 

[Centrism'sVoice]

Terminating an unwanted pregnancy is being responsible. Finding yourself pregnant and then giving birth all the while knowing you will abandon your infant is not being responsible.

How is abandoning your infant at a hospital or fire station "not being responsible?"

 

[Immanuel]

The concept of original sin seems to me to be a way to wrongfully condemn the innocent, since what ever this sin was, it was not committed by the parties being held responsible.

Well, then maybe your hang up is with the idea of sin.

My understanding of sin is that the Law was created for one purpose and that is to teach us that we need a savior. The law and sin were not created to condemn us, but rather to bring us life.

No getting the part where taking a risk is a promise. I think this is some figment of your imagination.

Not sure what you mean here.

Terminating an unwanted pregnancy is being responsible.

With that you and I definietly will have to agree to disagree.

Finding yourself pregnant and then giving birth all the while knowing you will abandon your infant is not being responsible.

Adoption does not equal abandonment.

Immie

 

[Anguille]

I didn't say she had the right to do so.

I said that I can see the need to do so. There is a difference. Sometimes we need to do things that are wrong but must be done. President Bush justified the war in Iraq under the same kind of premise. Many people didn't agree with him on that, but, it was still done.

So what would give her the right to fulfill her needs to "kill a baby"?

Her need to kill a baby?

Somehow that question seems extremely morbid.

Does a woman really have a need to kill a baby or any human being for that matter?

Immie

I was paraphrasing you.

I would never make the decision to take the life of the unborn child within me under any circumstance.

As to women killing babies or any other human being, it's not relevant to this discussion or my place to judge them, but women do kill. For many different reasons.
Abortion does not involve the "killing of a baby" because a baby is a creature which breaths on it's own and is out of the womb. Therefore it's cannot be aborted from a body it no longer inhabits.

As for the need for an abortion, I think it's nobody's business why a woman has an abortion but her own. And I personally don't care how trivial her reason might be. Any woman not wanting to give birth should not be a mother. At least not at that time.

 

[Grigorio]

Abortion does not involve the "killing of a baby" because a baby is a creature which breaths on it's own and is out of the womb. Therefore it's cannot be aborted from a body it no longer inhabits.

I find it revealing that you are unable to address the points made and must resort to such games of semantics.

As for the need for an abortion, I think it's nobody's business why a woman has an abortion but her own.

Do you extend that argument to all homicides? What about rape, theft, identity theft? -or do you only apply it where it fits your personal agenda ans supports the position you want it to support

 

[Anguille]

.

. I hardly think the vast majority of women and men are "conspiring" to become pregnant when they have sex. I think they are conspiring to enjoy themselves. Something some people think is deserving of punishment in the form of a forced birth.

No, the vast majority of couples who have abortions conspired to have sex and did so willingly and thus risked ending up pregnant. My belief is that if you are not willing to do the time... don't do the crime which flows with if you aren't willing to be a parent then damnit keep it in your pants.

How would their taking a risk warrant depriving them of rectifying to undesired outcome of taking that risk?

So sex is a crime which should be punished?

Why is sex criminal?

I did not say sex was a crime. Generally when a individual choses to have sex they realize that there may be consequences with that choice. They conciously decide to take on those risks. Should the consequence of pregnancy materialize, they do not IMHO have the right to retify the situation by later chosing to kill the human being that is devoloping within the woman.

They had the right to chose whether or not to have sex and thus whether or not to become pregnant. They chose to take that risk at that point there is, or at least should be, no turning back.

Immie

Yet, you make an allowance for certain 11 year old rape victims.

And you compare having sex to committing a crime in your analogy above.

I'm afraid can't see any other interpretation to your stance other than that you think sex which leads to pregnancy is a crime, or maybe sin?, deserving punishment in the form of forced pregnancy.

Is that not a perverted way to view motherhood? As punishment?

Does that show any responsibility concerning the child that will likely result?

 

[BrokenAngel]

I don't see why that is such a difficult question to answer. It is a separate human being, and it is not at fault for what happened to it's mother. The mother isn't forced into servitude and has the option to give the child up for adoption w/o ever even having seen him/her. Life is not fair in many various ways, I don't think carrying a child for nine months so that it may live is necessarily fair, but it beats murdering the baby. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Two wrongs might not make a right BUT have you ever been pregnant? I don't know where the movie industry gets the idea that women love being pregnant because I wouldn't mind taking a bullet to the skull atm. LOL The end product is a blast yes, but a woman who has been raped then forced to endure pregnancy is wrong ( though in all honesty she should have gone out and gotten the morning after pill the morning after ).

For those of you who don't know imagine the worst gas you have ever had, where your body feels like it is going to explode if any more pressure builds yet somehow you manage to stay in one piece day after day. Your pelvic region feels like it has been kicked so often the bone is bruised and your thighs and hips ache every time you walk. Your lower and mid back, from about your tailbone up to near your shoulder blades aches day in and day out. You are exhausted what feels like every minute of every day and when you do get to sleep good luck actually sleeping because the instant you lay down is the moment the little one decides to wake up inside you and start kicking and moving. In the beginning this movement is light flutters, but after about month 6 of the 10 month experience each individual organ becomes a punching bag. Even if you do get to sleep you wake up a couple hours later having to pee because the sweet little one decided to jump on your bladder.

Now add to that the stretch marks, the hormonal fluctuations, the fact that you can't take any kind of pain killer aside from a small amount of tylenol, the wardrobe you have to pay for ( shirts, pants, underware, bras, and shoes ), and the fact that if you were raped you don't have a significant other there to help you, occasionally pamper you and tell you that you are beautiful despite the extra 30 pounds you put on. I don't know.. I love my son and I will love the second one I am pregnant with but I don't wish pregnancy on a woman who as the right to choose lol. I can MORE than understand why a woman who was raped wouldn't want to go through that experience.

Yes the child may be an innocent in this situation but should the mother be forced to live through a life changing hell on top of the rape as well?

No, she should NOT have to go through this unless she is willing to do such.

But Angel...doesn't this mean that it is you and I determining whether a woman should be "punished" with her delivery because she chose to have sex?

How do we know each woman's circumstance?

I gave that description in reference to a question about rape. Someone had asked, and the question kept coming up again and again about whether the child of a rape should be punished. I believe that child didn't do anything, and if the mother is williing to keep the child and go through the experience of pregnancy and birth, even to just give it up for adoption she should be given a medal. I do not, however, think that anyone has the right to call a raped would-be mother a murderer for having the abortion. Was bringing to light the "fun of pregnancy so those who say a raped woman should have the child have a better idea of what they would be putting the woman through on TOP of the trauma of rape.

 

[Anguille]

Terminating an unwanted pregnancy is being responsible. Finding yourself pregnant and then giving birth all the while knowing you will abandon your infant is not being responsible.

How is abandoning your infant at a hospital or fire station "not being responsible?"

Purposely giving birth to a child you will abandon, either at a fire station or a baby broker's or wherever is being irresponsible.
I could not fathom doing such a thing and I have feel such sorrowe for the innocent young girls who are manipulated by baby brokers into thinking that not aborting and going through a 9 month pregnancy so that they can make a living off it, is the better way to go. I'm sure abortion is a difficult decision for some, especially those raised in cultures that disapprove of it, but giving up a new born baby must certainly be the most devastating loss of all.

For those who find themselves in the position of having to give up a baby they originally honestly thought they could care for after birth, I have utmost sympathy.

For those that sell their children for profit, I only have pity for them and hope they don't suffer too much from regrets later. Well, maybe suffer enough to ensure they don't do it again.

 

[Anguille]

The concept of original sin seems to me to be a way to wrongfully condemn the innocent, since what ever this sin was, it was not committed by the parties being held responsible.

Well, then maybe your hang up is with the idea of sin.

My understanding of sin is that the Law was created for one purpose and that is to teach us that we need a savior. The law and sin were not created to condemn us, but rather to bring us life.

I don't believe in your god. Plenty who do believe in god disagree with you concerning abortion. They believe we have access to abortion because God wants us to have it.

Will all due respect to your beliefs, why do you think your beliefs should dictate the lives of other who do not share them?

 

[Newby]

.


How would their taking a risk warrant depriving them of rectifying to undesired outcome of taking that risk?

So sex is a crime which should be punished?

Why is sex criminal?

I did not say sex was a crime. Generally when a individual choses to have sex they realize that there may be consequences with that choice. They conciously decide to take on those risks. Should the consequence of pregnancy materialize, they do not IMHO have the right to retify the situation by later chosing to kill the human being that is devoloping within the woman.

They had the right to chose whether or not to have sex and thus whether or not to become pregnant. They chose to take that risk at that point there is, or at least should be, no turning back.

Immie

Yet, you make an allowance for certain 11 year old rape victims.

And you compare having sex to committing a crime in your analogy above.

I'm afraid can't see any other interpretation to your stance other than that you think sex which leads to pregnancy is a crime, or maybe sin?, deserving punishment in the form of forced pregnancy.

Is that not a perverted way to view motherhood? As punishment?

Does that show any responsibility concerning the child that will likely result?

You purposely misrepresent what everyone has said in this thread.

No one has compared having sex to being a crime. No one has said that pregnancy should be a punishment. Showing responsibility is clearly something you do not understand, perhaps you just don't have the ability since many have tried to explain it to you and you still just don't get it.

You do not know how to discuss without being disingenuous. Most likely that's because your argument fails without you doing so.

 

[Newby]

Terminating an unwanted pregnancy is being responsible. Finding yourself pregnant and then giving birth all the while knowing you will abandon your infant is not being responsible.

How is abandoning your infant at a hospital or fire station "not being responsible?"

Purposely giving birth to a child you will abandon, either at a fire station or a baby broker's or wherever is being irresponsible.
I could not fathom doing such a thing and I have feel such sorrowe for the innocent young girls who are manipulated by baby brokers into thinking that not aborting and going through a 9 month pregnancy so that they can make a living off it, is the better way to go. I'm sure abortion is a difficult decision for some, especially those raised in cultures that disapprove of it, but giving up a new born baby must certainly be the most devastating loss of all.

For those who find themselves in the position of having to give up a baby they originally honestly thought they could care for after birth, I have utmost sympathy.

For those that sell their children for profit, I only have pity for them and hope they don't suffer too much from regrets later. Well, maybe suffer enough to ensure they don't do it again.

You rationalize killing your own child as being 'responsible'. That's just pathetic.


Why don't you find a few adopted children and ask them if their birth mother should have been more responsible and aborted them instead of giving them up.

 

[Anguille]

Well, since I believe in Original Sin, I think women are guilty.

So when do they become guilty with this original sin? At conception? At birth? When they start menstruation?

Still curious about this.

 

[Grigorio]

Responsibly is not black and white.

Taking the child to a safe place is arguably more responsible than leaving it in a dumpster, but less than rearing the child.

It is generally fools who think in absolutes.

 

[Newby]

The concept of original sin seems to me to be a way to wrongfully condemn the innocent, since what ever this sin was, it was not committed by the parties being held responsible.

Well, then maybe your hang up is with the idea of sin.

My understanding of sin is that the Law was created for one purpose and that is to teach us that we need a savior. The law and sin were not created to condemn us, but rather to bring us life.

I don't believe in your god. Plenty who do believe in god disagree with you concerning abortion. They believe we have access to abortion because God wants us to have it.

Will all due respect to your beliefs, why do you think your beliefs should dictate the lives of other who do not share them?

IMO, religion has nothing to do with it. Killing your baby is murder, it doesn't matter what religion you are or if you even have none to know that murder is wrong.

 

[Ceasaro]

I've always thought that you should have to pass an IQ test to have get a license to drive a car or own a gun. And I think it's getting to be about time that maybe we should do the same for babies, Pass an IQ test to be allowed to have one. Everyone else should be aborted, and if you're really too stupid, you should be sterilized. There's already too many people on the planet and we have to do something.
Any other suggestion to overpopulation? People are eventually going to starve to death, and other gruesome ways anyways.

 

[Centrism'sVoice]

Terminating an unwanted pregnancy is being responsible. Finding yourself pregnant and then giving birth all the while knowing you will abandon your infant is not being responsible.

How is abandoning your infant at a hospital or fire station "not being responsible?"

Purposely giving birth to a child you will abandon, either at a fire station or a baby broker's or wherever is being irresponsible.

You didn't answer the question: how is it being irresponsible?

(And, if you can manage it, perhaps you can explain how taking the child's life is somehow more responsible by contrast.)

 

[Ceasaro]

CentristGayVoice, nobody is taking a child's life, it only becomes that when it's born. I know, difficult concept...

 

[Immanuel]

As to women killing babies or any other human being, it's not relevant to this discussion or my place to judge them, but women do kill. For many different reasons.
Abortion does not involve the "killing of a baby" because a baby is a creature which breaths on it's own and is out of the womb. Therefore it's cannot be aborted from a body it no longer inhabits.

As for the need for an abortion, I think it's nobody's business why a woman has an abortion but her own. And I personally don't care how trivial her reason might be. Any woman not wanting to give birth should not be a mother. At least not at that time.

I disagree. It is absolutely relevant to this discussion.

I also disagree that it is not a baby. Even someone with as little scientific understanding as me knows that there are multiple stages in a life and that those stages begin at the point of fertilization.

Immie

 

[Anguille]

I've always thought that you should have to pass an IQ test to have get a license to drive a car or own a gun. And I think it's getting to be about time that maybe we should do the same for babies, Pass an IQ test to be allowed to have one. Everyone else should be aborted, and if you're really too stupid, you should be sterilized. There's already too many people on the planet and we have to do something.
Any other suggestion to overpopulation? People are eventually going to starve to death, and other gruesome ways anyways.

If only I could reconcile my belief in a woman's right to do what she wants with her body, I would agree.

I see so many people having kids as if they were some new toy or status symbol.

We can't ethically force abortion but you can we can stop behaving as if every newborn baby is a blessing. The cult of parenthood has gotten out of hand.
We can also have laws saying that after two children each couple, or after one child each single parent will be relieved of parental rights for subsequent children.Then those who want children but can't would have a better chance of sharing in the experience of parenthood.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Untrue on several levels. One, love for others does not require you to develop a bleeding heart every time they suffer the consequences of their own actions, or to harm others in an attempt to protect people from the consequences of their own actions. Two, while I'm certainly not glad that she died, I reserve my empathy and sympathy both for helpless and innocent victims, neither of which she was. Three, if you want chilling, cast your thoughts toward the millions of dead babies produced every year by the "empathy" and "love for others" shown by the pro-choice crowd. Brrr!

You are by definition, 'pro-choice' in your mercy. Shall we have prisons for pregnant women? Tie them down and shackle them and make them produce babies?

I don't have abortions. I don't advise anyone to have one. I don't condemn women who have them.

Sorry for your cute little attempt at being Ms. Clever, but for me to be "pro-choice in my mercy", I would have to be actively killing people who make stupid decisions, rather than simply shrugging and saying, "Well, that's what happens."

No, apparently what we SHOULD do is rip helpless babies limb from limb and throw them in the landfill so that their egg donors can get on with sleeping their way through the phone book.

FYI, if you were going for the "I'm so much more lofty and compassionate and wonderful than you, and you should feel guilty and ashamed for being such a mean, cruel person" argument, you probably shouldn't be making it while standing on a pile of dead babies. It kind of undercuts your moral authority, know what I'm saying? I'll feel bad for what an evil, heartless bitch I am just as soon as I'm done fighting to save the lives of millions of infants. I've got it on my to-do list, I promise.

Wow. Outstanding over reaction. My hat's off to you. Good luck.