Abortion, expanded

[Immanuel]

What about 'Manuel?

Sounds Hispanic and I was not privileged enough to be born latino.

Manny sounds like a baseball player and I always wanted to play professional football. Had a hell of an arm, but no height nor speed.

Immie

 

[Grigorio]

Well, Immanuel... shall I tell the world that El is with us?

 

[Immanuel]

Well, Immanuel... shall I tell the world that El is with us?

Of course, but I doubt they will listen.

Immie

 

[Grigorio]

Well, Immanuel... shall I tell the world that El is with us?

Of course, but I doubt they will listen.

Immie

But you're right here... well there... but posting here... on this board...

 

[Immanuel]

Well, Immanuel... shall I tell the world that El is with us?

Of course, but I doubt they will listen.

Immie

But you're right here... well there... but posting here... on this board...

You know that crossed my mind as what you might have been saying, but stop right there!!!

I, too, am only trying to proclaim that the real El is with us.

Immie

 

[Grigorio]

All I could find was an Eel...

 

[Anguille]

Seems to me that calling them "clumps of cells" is the spin.

Immie

Sure. but I've never used that term.

gotta go. Thanks for the conversation.
I still really am curious about when you think original sin can be attached to a woman. At what stage of life?

Ah, but just a little bit ago you were using words meant to illicit the same response:

Why anyone would compare the killing of a baby to the abortion of an embryo or fetus is beyond me

Face the fact: you were attempting to dehumanize the unborn child with those remarks.

Nothing more than spin.

Original sin is attached to all of us. We are never without if. From the earliest part of our lives we are affected by it.

And yes, thank you as well for the conversation. It has been enjoyable having a discussion with someone who disagrees with me that did not drop to name calling. Kudos!

Immie

Embryo and fetus are scientific and medical terms. I think it's important when talking about a medical procedure to use the proper terms. To use baby interchangeably for infant, fetus and embryo does not help maintain clarity in the conversation. If you have some better terms that are just as specific I'd be glad to hear them. I might even use them. I was not trying to elicit a response. I had no idea you found those terms objectionable and I can't really imagine why you would.
Saying "clump of cells" is something I think is intended to demean the value of a fetus or embryo. And that's why I don't use that kind of language.

Not sure what you consider the earliest part of our lives but if you think life begins at conception then I would assume you think that is when we acquire original sin. Would I be right to assume that?

 

[Grigorio]

Original sin stains the soul before the body is formed and contines to stain it after the body has died...

 

[Sky Dancer]

Sure. but I've never used that term.

gotta go. Thanks for the conversation.
I still really am curious about when you think original sin can be attached to a woman. At what stage of life?

Ah, but just a little bit ago you were using words meant to illicit the same response:

Why anyone would compare the killing of a baby to the abortion of an embryo or fetus is beyond me

Face the fact: you were attempting to dehumanize the unborn child with those remarks.

Nothing more than spin.

Original sin is attached to all of us. We are never without if. From the earliest part of our lives we are affected by it.

And yes, thank you as well for the conversation. It has been enjoyable having a discussion with someone who disagrees with me that did not drop to name calling. Kudos!

Immie

Embryo and fetus are scientific and medical terms. I think it's important when talking about a medical procedure to use the proper terms. To use baby interchangeably for infant, fetus and embryo does not help maintain clarity in the conversation. If you have some better terms that are just as specific I'd be glad to hear them. I might even use them. I was not trying to elicit a response. I had no idea you found those terms objectionable and I can't really imagine why you would.
Saying "clump of cells" is something I think is intended to demean the value of a fetus or embryo. And that's why I don't use that kind of language.

Not sure what you consider the earliest part of our lives but if you think life begins at conception then I would assume you think that is when we acquire original sin. Would I be right to assume that?

Ah come on. You used the medical terms to dehumanize the aborted human being. I don't disagree with pro-choice but you lose ground by not acknowledging the truth of what you're doing--which is spin.

It weakens the pro-choice argument IMO.

BTW why am I on your ignore list?

 

[Immanuel]

Sure. but I've never used that term.

gotta go. Thanks for the conversation.
I still really am curious about when you think original sin can be attached to a woman. At what stage of life?

Ah, but just a little bit ago you were using words meant to illicit the same response:

Why anyone would compare the killing of a baby to the abortion of an embryo or fetus is beyond me

Face the fact: you were attempting to dehumanize the unborn child with those remarks.

Nothing more than spin.

Original sin is attached to all of us. We are never without if. From the earliest part of our lives we are affected by it.

And yes, thank you as well for the conversation. It has been enjoyable having a discussion with someone who disagrees with me that did not drop to name calling. Kudos!

Immie

Embryo and fetus are scientific and medical terms. I think it's important when talking about a medical procedure to use the proper terms. To use baby interchangeably for infant, fetus and embryo does not help maintain clarity in the conversation. If you have some better terms that are just as specific I'd be glad to hear them. I might even use them. I was not trying to elicit a response. I had no idea you found those terms objectionable and I can't really imagine why you would.
Saying "clump of cells" is something I think is intended to demean the value of a fetus or embryo. And that's why I don't use that kind of language.

Not sure what you consider the earliest part of our lives but if you think life begins at conception then I would assume you think that is when we acquire original sin. Would I be right to assume that?

Many Pro-choice people (not saying whether this is your intention or not) use embryo/fetus/clump of cells etc interchangeably because they want to dehumanize the human being in the womb. I use baby because I believe the human being within the womb to be exactly that a human being deserving of that recognition.

I am more than happy to use human being.

Neither do I find embryo or fetus objectionable when they are used to describe that stage of life. I do find that use objectionable when it is used as a form of dehumanization.

In reference to the Original Sin discussion, I don't have an answer to when we are "infected". I have my belief but I cannot actually state that I am right on that. My understanding is that we inherit "original sin" from our parents, but, I can't go any further than that without some in depth review of the subject, that I don't believe is necessary here.

Immie

 

[Anguille]

Ah, but just a little bit ago you were using words meant to illicit the same response:

Face the fact: you were attempting to dehumanize the unborn child with those remarks.

Nothing more than spin.

Original sin is attached to all of us. We are never without if. From the earliest part of our lives we are affected by it.

And yes, thank you as well for the conversation. It has been enjoyable having a discussion with someone who disagrees with me that did not drop to name calling. Kudos!

Immie

Embryo and fetus are scientific and medical terms. I think it's important when talking about a medical procedure to use the proper terms. To use baby interchangeably for infant, fetus and embryo does not help maintain clarity in the conversation. If you have some better terms that are just as specific I'd be glad to hear them. I might even use them. I was not trying to elicit a response. I had no idea you found those terms objectionable and I can't really imagine why you would.
Saying "clump of cells" is something I think is intended to demean the value of a fetus or embryo. And that's why I don't use that kind of language.

Not sure what you consider the earliest part of our lives but if you think life begins at conception then I would assume you think that is when we acquire original sin. Would I be right to assume that?

Many Pro-choice people (not saying whether this is your intention or not) use embryo/fetus/clump of cells etc interchangeably because they want to dehumanize the human being in the womb. I use baby because I believe the human being within the womb to be exactly that a human being deserving of that recognition.

I am more than happy to use human being.

Neither do I find embryo or fetus objectionable when they are used to describe that stage of life. I do find that use objectionable when it is used as a form of dehumanization.

In reference to the Original Sin discussion, I don't have an answer to when we are "infected". I have my belief but I cannot actually state that I am right on that. My understanding is that we inherit "original sin" from our parents, but, I can't go any further than that without some in depth review of the subject, that I don't believe is necessary here.

Immie

I can't speak for why other pro choicers use the terms fetus and embryo and I was not aware that they were considered dehumanizing by some. To me they are neutral scientific terms. I really don't know any other way to express the notion of a baby before it is born at the different stages of development and those stages are pertinant when speaking about abortion because people all have different ideas about which stages should be permissible for abortion and which should not.

I agree with Care that people speaking about their pregnancies say "baby" in an all encompassing sense, but here we are not talking about one single person's pregnancy we are talking about pregnancy in general and I was curious about which stage of development original sin supposedly comes into play.

You may honestly have not beeen using "baby" in order to confuse the issue and evoke an emotional response but I have seen it done often.

The original sin thing intrigues me because it seems like it's what separates an "innocent being " from a woman. Yet, if fetuses have original sin how could they be innocent beings?

 

[Immanuel]

I can't speak for why other pro choicers use the terms fetus and embryo and I was not aware that they were considered dehumanizing by some. To me they are neutral scientific terms. I really don't know any other way to express the notion of a baby before it is born at the different stages of development and those stages are pertinant when speaking about abortion because people all have different ideas about which stages should be permissible for abortion and which should not.

I agree with Care that people speaking about their pregnancies say "baby" in an all encompassing sense, but here we are not talking about one single person's pregnancy we are talking about pregnancy in general and I was curious about which stage of development original sin supposedly comes into play.

You may honestly have not beeen using "baby" in order to confuse the issue and evoke an emotional response but I have seen it done often.

The original sin thing intrigues me because it seems like it's what separates an "innocent being " from a woman. Yet, if fetuses have original sin how could they be innocent beings?

First in regards to original sin/innocent beings, when I first used the term in this thread, I did not mean they were "sinless", I meant they had not done anything at all to deserve having the right to life stolen from them. My belief is as stated earlier, that we all are born sinful. We were sinful before we were born and we will be sinful when we die. In this case innocence had nothing to do with sinlessness. I hope that helps to somewhat clear up my meaning.

Second, I do not use "baby" to confuse the issue or evoke an emotional response. I simply refuse to allow the pro-choice movement to dehumanize unborn children in such a manner. As I said, using the terms embryo and fetus to describe those stages of life, but I must tell you that when you use them as you did, even though you did not intend to do so, it does illicit the feeling that you are attempting to dehumanize unborn human beings. That may simply be because I have had these kinds of discussions with people who clearly want to convince the world that the unborn human being is nothing more than a parasite, but that is what they attempt to do.

Finally, your reasoning as expressed in the quoted post is understood. However, abortion is a topic that brings heated debate up from both sides of the issue. When words are used in certain manners such as the N Word for long enough they begin to take on different meanings than they had before. The Pro Choice movement has methodically dehumanized unborn children to such a point that much of the world can't see the travesty of abortion. The pro choice movement has worked to dehumanize the human fetus and been extremely successful at doing so simply by their choice of words.

As I just said, the Pro Choice movement has worked to convince the world that a human fetus is not human at all. Quite frankly, I find that disgusting.

Immie

 

[Anguille]

The Pro Choice movement has methodically dehumanized unborn children to such a point that much of the world can't see the travesty of abortion. The pro choice movement has worked to dehumanize the human fetus and been extremely successful at doing so simply by their choice of words.

As I just said, the Pro Choice movement has worked to convince the world that a human fetus is not human at all. Quite frankly, I find that disgusting.

Immie

I think this is a case of he said, she said.

The pro choice movement has much more going for them in terms of the fact that most people respect civil rights and favor the separation of church and state to convince people that abortion is a matter of personal choice and it really doesn't need to rely on distorting the meanings of words to make it's points.

That they could convince anyone that a human fetus would develop into anything other than a human is kind of stretching it, IMO. Though I guess it did happen to Rosemary's Baby.

So if you find the words fetus and embryo so offensive and misleading, what do you use to refer to those things? A baby minus 6 months of age? ??

 

[Anguille]

I have to add that I frankly find the anti abortion movement's habit of trivializing a woman's rights and the impact that 9 months of pregnancy then motherhood can have on her to be quite disgusting.

 

[Immanuel]

The Pro Choice movement has methodically dehumanized unborn children to such a point that much of the world can't see the travesty of abortion. The pro choice movement has worked to dehumanize the human fetus and been extremely successful at doing so simply by their choice of words.

As I just said, the Pro Choice movement has worked to convince the world that a human fetus is not human at all. Quite frankly, I find that disgusting.

Immie

I think this is a case of he said, she said.

The pro choice movement has much more going for them in terms of the fact that most people respect civil rights and favor the separation of church and state to convince people that abortion is a matter of personal choice and it really doesn't need to rely on distorting the meanings of words to make it's points.

That they could convince anyone that a human fetus would develop into anything other than a human is kind of stretching it, IMO. Though I guess it did happen to Rosemary's Baby.

So if you find the words fetus and embryo so offensive and misleading, what do you use to refer to those things? A baby minus 6 months of age? ??

Me thinks you should try reading some of their propaganda.

Immie

 

[Anguille]

The Pro Choice movement has methodically dehumanized unborn children to such a point that much of the world can't see the travesty of abortion. The pro choice movement has worked to dehumanize the human fetus and been extremely successful at doing so simply by their choice of words.

As I just said, the Pro Choice movement has worked to convince the world that a human fetus is not human at all. Quite frankly, I find that disgusting.

Immie

I think this is a case of he said, she said.

The pro choice movement has much more going for them in terms of the fact that most people respect civil rights and favor the separation of church and state to convince people that abortion is a matter of personal choice and it really doesn't need to rely on distorting the meanings of words to make it's points.

That they could convince anyone that a human fetus would develop into anything other than a human is kind of stretching it, IMO. Though I guess it did happen to Rosemary's Baby.

So if you find the words fetus and embryo so offensive and misleading, what do you use to refer to those things? A baby minus 6 months of age? ??

Me thinks you should try reading some of their propaganda.

Immie

Thanks for the conversation and explanations of why you are anti abortion, Immie. I still don't understand why you think abortion would be allowed in certain cases if you think abortion means the unwarranted destruction of human life. But I have doubts I will ever be able to understand since I don't have the same religious beliefs as you and I also do not think anyone should allow their religious beliefs to interfere with democracy.

Thanks for explaining that an innocent being can have original sin. It still seems a contradiction to me. As a previous poster said, the anti abortion movement seems to be based on random morality, from what I've observed. However I sincerely do appreciate your non antagonistic way of explaining your views to me. Perhaps if I continue to think about it some more I will understand your point of view.

 

[Immanuel]

Thanks for the conversation and explanations of why you are anti abortion, Immie. I still don't understand why you think abortion would be allowed in certain cases if you think abortion means the unwarranted destruction of human life. But I have doubts I will ever be able to understand since I don't have the same religious beliefs as you and I also do not think anyone should allow their religious beliefs to interfere with democracy.

Thanks for explaining that an innocent being can have original sin. It still seems a contradiction to me. As a previous poster said, the anti abortion movement seems to be based on random morality, from what I've observed. However I sincerely do appreciate your non antagonistic way of explaining your views to me. Perhaps if I continue to think about it some more I will understand your point of view.

It has been a pleasure conversing with you. Neither one of us have changed our mind, but that so rarely happens anyway. You find it difficult to understand my point of view and maybe that is because I am not doing a good job of explaining it because I don't find it acceptable in those instances you mentioned, I simply don't have the courage to tell an 11 year old rape victim or a woman who faces a life/death choice that they are evil (not that I would ever use that term anyway) for choosing an abortion. But, I too, find it difficult to understand your point of view.

I look forward to future discussions with you and maybe... prayerfully, answering the questions you have.

Immie

 

[Cecilie1200]

The concept of original sin seems to me to be a way to wrongfully condemn the innocent, since what ever this sin was, it was not committed by the parties being held responsible.

Well, then maybe your hang up is with the idea of sin.

My understanding of sin is that the Law was created for one purpose and that is to teach us that we need a savior. The law and sin were not created to condemn us, but rather to bring us life.

I don't believe in your god. Plenty who do believe in god disagree with you concerning abortion. They believe we have access to abortion because God wants us to have it.

Brilliant logic. God gave us access to the ability to kill each other because he wants us to kill each other.

Will all due respect to your beliefs, why do you think your beliefs should dictate the lives of other who do not share them?

One could ask the same question of you. Why do YOU think YOUR beliefs should dictate the laws under which everyone lives?

 

[Cecilie1200]

CentristGayVoice, nobody is taking a child's life, it only becomes that when it's born. I know, difficult concept...

Maybe it's such a difficult concept because it's bullshit, unsupported by science, and only believed by simplistically childish minds who clearly spent all of high school cutting class and smoking behind the gym.

Why don't you try a REALLY difficult concept called "reality", screwboy?

 

[Cecilie1200]

You are by definition, 'pro-choice' in your mercy. Shall we have prisons for pregnant women? Tie them down and shackle them and make them produce babies?

I don't have abortions. I don't advise anyone to have one. I don't condemn women who have them.

Sorry for your cute little attempt at being Ms. Clever, but for me to be "pro-choice in my mercy", I would have to be actively killing people who make stupid decisions, rather than simply shrugging and saying, "Well, that's what happens."

No, apparently what we SHOULD do is rip helpless babies limb from limb and throw them in the landfill so that their egg donors can get on with sleeping their way through the phone book.

FYI, if you were going for the "I'm so much more lofty and compassionate and wonderful than you, and you should feel guilty and ashamed for being such a mean, cruel person" argument, you probably shouldn't be making it while standing on a pile of dead babies. It kind of undercuts your moral authority, know what I'm saying? I'll feel bad for what an evil, heartless bitch I am just as soon as I'm done fighting to save the lives of millions of infants. I've got it on my to-do list, I promise.

Wow. Outstanding over reaction. My hat's off to you. Good luck.

Wow. Outstanding dodge. Thank you for telling everyone so clearly that you have no idea what to do when someone calls you on your grandstanding melodrama and refuses to play along with your arrogant belief in your own moral rectitude.