Abortion, expanded

[Cecilie1200]

So Immie, you shouldn't use birth control or you'll be dening a child's life? Why not? Isn't that the pope's stance?

No, that's the stance of ignorant ass clowns like you who thought they had better things to do than sit through Bio 101 in school. Hey, no one needs more than an elementary-school education to get through life, right?

 

[Cecilie1200]

As to women killing babies or any other human being, it's not relevant to this discussion or my place to judge them, but women do kill. For many different reasons.
Abortion does not involve the "killing of a baby" because a baby is a creature which breaths on it's own and is out of the womb. Therefore it's cannot be aborted from a body it no longer inhabits.

As for the need for an abortion, I think it's nobody's business why a woman has an abortion but her own. And I personally don't care how trivial her reason might be. Any woman not wanting to give birth should not be a mother. At least not at that time.

I disagree. It is absolutely relevant to this discussion.

I also disagree that it is not a baby. Even someone with as little scientific understanding as me knows that there are multiple stages in a life and that those stages begin at the point of fertilization.

Immie

So then you embrace the phrase "Killing babies" even as you remark how morbid it is?

Why anyone would compare the killing of a baby to the abortion of an embryo or fetus is beyond me. Actually, no. It isn't beyond me. It's spin. Whenever people have to resort to spin and word manipulation to try and sway people to their argument, I can see that that progress in understanding that person's point of view has been halted.
Calling them babies is a ploy to rile up emotions and steer away from rational and logical discussion.

Spin and word manipulation to steer away from the facts? You mean like pretending that "fetus" refers to something completely different than the word "baby"? Or inventing concepts like "personhood"?

People who compare killing a born child with an unborn one are at least on solid scientific ground. What've the pro-aborts got, other than a lot of fuzzy-wuzzy emotional appeals about "the tragedy of unwanted pregnancy" and "involuntary servitude" and a whole host of other heartstring-tugging buzzwords?

 

[Care4all]

I disagree. It is absolutely relevant to this discussion.

I also disagree that it is not a baby. Even someone with as little scientific understanding as me knows that there are multiple stages in a life and that those stages begin at the point of fertilization.

Immie

So then you embrace the phrase "Killing babies" even as you remark how morbid it is?

Why anyone would compare the killing of a baby to the abortion of an embryo or fetus is beyond me. Actually, no. It isn't beyond me. It's spin. Whenever people have to resort to spin and word manipulation to try and sway people to their argument, I can see that that progress in understanding that person's point of view has been halted.
Calling them babies is a ploy to rile up emotions and steer away from rational and logical discussion.

Spin and word manipulation to steer away from the facts? You mean like pretending that "fetus" refers to something completely different than the word "baby"? Or inventing concepts like "personhood"?

People who compare killing a born child with an unborn one are at least on solid scientific ground. What've the pro-aborts got, other than a lot of fuzzy-wuzzy emotional appeals about "the tragedy of unwanted pregnancy" and "involuntary servitude" and a whole host of other heartstring-tugging buzzwords?

fyi, the term is thousands of years old...not made up...
Personhood in theology

Person and personhood were used in concepts in the early Christian theological tradition, during the first centuries A.D. by the Church Fathers. The very concept of person (prosopon in Greek) was the result of a theological dispute, how God, according to the Christian (Orthodox) teaching, can be One and three at the same time. Further explication of the problem led to the formulation that there is one substance (or being) and three subsistences (hypostases): God Father, God Son and God Holy Spirit, but still just one God, not three. This theological concept of the person as something that has a specific identity and holds the fullness of being, was applied to the human being as well. The Church Fathers interpreted the "icon of God" in man as human ability to exist as a person, having his/her own unique identity in communion with other persons. Later in the West the concept was translated into Latin as persona and was explained by Boethius and St. Augustine as something characterized by rational capacities.[3]

 

[Care4all]

i don't think they are on solid scientific ground when they call a fetus a baby...

in Science a fetus is NOT a NEWBORN baby...a baby is the NEXT STAGE in a human's growth pattern, which takes place AFTER its birthing, after the human has received/taken the Breath of Life, their first breath..... zygote, embryo, fetus are all human growth stages that take place BEFORE the human ''has been birthed'' in science, newborn baby, infant, toddler, child, pubescent etc are stages of growth after birth and LIFE begins.

this is not saying the fetus is not alive, it is....but scientifically, i believe it is a baby, after birth....

 

[AllieBaba]

Sadly, those who want us to kill off fetuses insist on the teriminology because they think it negates the humanity of the fetus.

So long as they continue to do that, the opposing side will refer to fetuses as babies, just because those who want to kill them are too stupid to realize a fetus is a human, too.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Sadly, those who want us to kill off fetuses insist on the teriminology because they think it negates the humanity of the fetus.

So long as they continue to do that, the opposing side will refer to fetuses as babies, just because those who want to kill them are too stupid to realize a fetus is a human, too.

You just shot your own arguement to hell by dehumanizing your pro-choice opponents.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Sorry for your cute little attempt at being Ms. Clever, but for me to be "pro-choice in my mercy", I would have to be actively killing people who make stupid decisions, rather than simply shrugging and saying, "Well, that's what happens."

No, apparently what we SHOULD do is rip helpless babies limb from limb and throw them in the landfill so that their egg donors can get on with sleeping their way through the phone book.

FYI, if you were going for the "I'm so much more lofty and compassionate and wonderful than you, and you should feel guilty and ashamed for being such a mean, cruel person" argument, you probably shouldn't be making it while standing on a pile of dead babies. It kind of undercuts your moral authority, know what I'm saying? I'll feel bad for what an evil, heartless bitch I am just as soon as I'm done fighting to save the lives of millions of infants. I've got it on my to-do list, I promise.

Wow. Outstanding over reaction. My hat's off to you. Good luck.

Wow. Outstanding dodge. Thank you for telling everyone so clearly that you have no idea what to do when someone calls you on your grandstanding melodrama and refuses to play along with your arrogant belief in your own moral rectitude.

I need make no comment to this post. Your own words say it all. Good luck. Clearly, you have no idea what my position is on the abortion issue.

 

[AllieBaba]

Sadly, those who want us to kill off fetuses insist on the teriminology because they think it negates the humanity of the fetus.

So long as they continue to do that, the opposing side will refer to fetuses as babies, just because those who want to kill them are too stupid to realize a fetus is a human, too.

You just shot your own arguement to hell by dehumanizing your pro-choice opponents.

How does it dehumanize to call them stupid?

Stupid people are still people. You'll have to share the idiot tiara with Illusion now.

 

[AllieBaba]

Wow. Outstanding over reaction. My hat's off to you. Good luck.

Wow. Outstanding dodge. Thank you for telling everyone so clearly that you have no idea what to do when someone calls you on your grandstanding melodrama and refuses to play along with your arrogant belief in your own moral rectitude.

I need make no comment to this post. Your own words say it all. Good luck. Clearly, you have no idea what my position is on the abortion issue.

Sky Jacker just sort of goes with her own internal monologue. She doesn't bother with what's actually being said.

 

[Anguille]

Sadly, those who want us to kill off fetuses insist on the teriminology because they think it negates the humanity of the fetus.

So long as they continue to do that, the opposing side will refer to fetuses as babies, just because those who want to kill them are too stupid to realize a fetus is a human, too.

What if we call them human fetuses? I have no problem with that. But calling a human fetus a baby in a discussion about abortion and the different stages of life or non life is just plain misleading.

 

[Sky Dancer]

How about calling a fertilized egg a baby, Allie Babble? Is a fertilized egg that hasn't implanted in the uterus a baby babble? I love my new name. Maybe Gunny will let me change my name to Sky Jacker.

 

[Anguille]

Thanks for the conversation and explanations of why you are anti abortion, Immie. I still don't understand why you think abortion would be allowed in certain cases if you think abortion means the unwarranted destruction of human life. But I have doubts I will ever be able to understand since I don't have the same religious beliefs as you and I also do not think anyone should allow their religious beliefs to interfere with democracy.

Thanks for explaining that an innocent being can have original sin. It still seems a contradiction to me. As a previous poster said, the anti abortion movement seems to be based on random morality, from what I've observed. However I sincerely do appreciate your non antagonistic way of explaining your views to me. Perhaps if I continue to think about it some more I will understand your point of view.

It has been a pleasure conversing with you. Neither one of us have changed our mind, but that so rarely happens anyway. You find it difficult to understand my point of view and maybe that is because I am not doing a good job of explaining it because I don't find it acceptable in those instances you mentioned, I simply don't have the courage to tell an 11 year old rape victim or a woman who faces a life/death choice that they are evil (not that I would ever use that term anyway) for choosing an abortion. But, I too, find it difficult to understand your point of view.

I look forward to future discussions with you and maybe... prayerfully, answering the questions you have.

Immie

Likewise a pleasure for me as it always is.

I have another theological question for you, if you don't mind. I heard somewhere that Christians believe babies have souls before they are born or maybe it was that some souls are waiting to be matched up with a human embryo. If a woman aborts would the soul go straight to heaven being an innocent being or would it go back in line with the other souls? Either way, wouldn't it be in a better place, either in heaven or in God's waiting room than on earth as an unwanted child? Shouldn't we do our best so that every soul that comes to earth has a good beginning in life?

Also, were you raised in a religious family? In the same sect you belong to now?

 

[AllieBaba]

Sadly, those who want us to kill off fetuses insist on the teriminology because they think it negates the humanity of the fetus.

So long as they continue to do that, the opposing side will refer to fetuses as babies, just because those who want to kill them are too stupid to realize a fetus is a human, too.

What if we call them human fetuses? I have no problem with that. But calling a human fetus a baby in a discussion about abortion and the different stages of life or non life is just plain misleading.

"Non life". That's the thing. The insistence that a fetus lacks life. How strange that it moves, then. And sucks its thumb. And pees and swallows.

You can just call them human if you like. Then you'll get to see how ridiculous it is to insist anyone has the "right" to kill them.

 

[AllieBaba]

How about calling a fertilized egg a baby, Allie Babble? Is a fertilized egg that hasn't implanted in the uterus a baby babble? I love my new name. Maybe Gunny will let me change my name to Sky Jacker.

Go for it.

 

[AllieBaba]

Thanks for the conversation and explanations of why you are anti abortion, Immie. I still don't understand why you think abortion would be allowed in certain cases if you think abortion means the unwarranted destruction of human life. But I have doubts I will ever be able to understand since I don't have the same religious beliefs as you and I also do not think anyone should allow their religious beliefs to interfere with democracy.

Thanks for explaining that an innocent being can have original sin. It still seems a contradiction to me. As a previous poster said, the anti abortion movement seems to be based on random morality, from what I've observed. However I sincerely do appreciate your non antagonistic way of explaining your views to me. Perhaps if I continue to think about it some more I will understand your point of view.

It has been a pleasure conversing with you. Neither one of us have changed our mind, but that so rarely happens anyway. You find it difficult to understand my point of view and maybe that is because I am not doing a good job of explaining it because I don't find it acceptable in those instances you mentioned, I simply don't have the courage to tell an 11 year old rape victim or a woman who faces a life/death choice that they are evil (not that I would ever use that term anyway) for choosing an abortion. But, I too, find it difficult to understand your point of view.

I look forward to future discussions with you and maybe... prayerfully, answering the questions you have.

Immie

Likewise a pleasure for me as it always is.

I have another theological question for you, if you don't mind. I heard somewhere that Christians believe babies have souls before they are born or maybe it was that some souls are waiting to be matched up with a human embryo. If a woman aborts would the soul go straight to heaven being an innocent being or would it go back in line with the other souls? Either way, wouldn't it be in a better place, either in heaven or in God's waiting room than on earth as an unwanted child? Shouldn't we do our best so that every soul that comes to earth has a good beginning in life?

Also, were you raised in a religious family? In the same sect you belong to now?

Just because people are united with God after they die doesn't mean we get to off them.

 

[AllieBaba]

And we don't get to kill people based on how happy we perceive them to be.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Sadly, those who want us to kill off fetuses insist on the teriminology because they think it negates the humanity of the fetus.

So long as they continue to do that, the opposing side will refer to fetuses as babies, just because those who want to kill them are too stupid to realize a fetus is a human, too.

Yes, well, the word "fetus" essentially means "baby from two months after conception until birth". For them to insist that it means "less than alive" just goes to show how uneducated they are, as so many of their beliefs and positions do.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Sadly, those who want us to kill off fetuses insist on the teriminology because they think it negates the humanity of the fetus.

So long as they continue to do that, the opposing side will refer to fetuses as babies, just because those who want to kill them are too stupid to realize a fetus is a human, too.

You just shot your own arguement to hell by dehumanizing your pro-choice opponents.

Dehumanizing? He said they were stupid, not that they were inhuman.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Wow. Outstanding over reaction. My hat's off to you. Good luck.

Wow. Outstanding dodge. Thank you for telling everyone so clearly that you have no idea what to do when someone calls you on your grandstanding melodrama and refuses to play along with your arrogant belief in your own moral rectitude.

I need make no comment to this post. Your own words say it all. Good luck. Clearly, you have no idea what my position is on the abortion issue.

Another dodge. "I haven't said it on THIS thread, so you can't possibly have carried any knowledge of my asinine posts on other threads in with you." But by all means, continue to try to deny your own positions, because that does so much to show everyone how truly worthwhile they must be, if you're ashamed of them even as you hold them.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Sadly, those who want us to kill off fetuses insist on the teriminology because they think it negates the humanity of the fetus.

So long as they continue to do that, the opposing side will refer to fetuses as babies, just because those who want to kill them are too stupid to realize a fetus is a human, too.

What if we call them human fetuses? I have no problem with that. But calling a human fetus a baby in a discussion about abortion and the different stages of life or non life is just plain misleading.

What difference does it make if you go to the extra effort of identifying the species of a fetus every single time you refer to it?

And dumbass, "fetus" MEANS "baby". It's a specific term denoting the exact stage of development, like "newborn" and "toddler" and "adolescent" do. None of those is mutually exclusive to the word "child", and neither is "fetus". Honestly, do any of you people speak English as your first language?