Abortion, expanded

[Cecilie1200]

How about calling a fertilized egg a baby, Allie Babble? Is a fertilized egg that hasn't implanted in the uterus a baby babble? I love my new name. Maybe Gunny will let me change my name to Sky Jacker.

A fertilized egg is called an "embryo", which means "baby from the time of conception to two months after." In other words, yes, Gregor Mendel. a fertilized egg is a baby.

This isn't rocket magic. My kid can understand biology this basic, so why can't you dorks? Oh, wait, it's because HE isn't tying himself into a pretzel trying to justify infanticide. I forgot.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Thanks for the conversation and explanations of why you are anti abortion, Immie. I still don't understand why you think abortion would be allowed in certain cases if you think abortion means the unwarranted destruction of human life. But I have doubts I will ever be able to understand since I don't have the same religious beliefs as you and I also do not think anyone should allow their religious beliefs to interfere with democracy.

Thanks for explaining that an innocent being can have original sin. It still seems a contradiction to me. As a previous poster said, the anti abortion movement seems to be based on random morality, from what I've observed. However I sincerely do appreciate your non antagonistic way of explaining your views to me. Perhaps if I continue to think about it some more I will understand your point of view.

It has been a pleasure conversing with you. Neither one of us have changed our mind, but that so rarely happens anyway. You find it difficult to understand my point of view and maybe that is because I am not doing a good job of explaining it because I don't find it acceptable in those instances you mentioned, I simply don't have the courage to tell an 11 year old rape victim or a woman who faces a life/death choice that they are evil (not that I would ever use that term anyway) for choosing an abortion. But, I too, find it difficult to understand your point of view.

I look forward to future discussions with you and maybe... prayerfully, answering the questions you have.

Immie

Likewise a pleasure for me as it always is.

I have another theological question for you, if you don't mind. I heard somewhere that Christians believe babies have souls before they are born or maybe it was that some souls are waiting to be matched up with a human embryo. If a woman aborts would the soul go straight to heaven being an innocent being or would it go back in line with the other souls? Either way, wouldn't it be in a better place, either in heaven or in God's waiting room than on earth as an unwanted child? Shouldn't we do our best so that every soul that comes to earth has a good beginning in life?

Also, were you raised in a religious family? In the same sect you belong to now?

Ah, THIS old heinous piece of shit. "We're doing them a favor by killing them, because they get to go to Heaven." Well, gee. I guess by THAT logic, you favor walking into churches and just mowing people down in job lots to "send them to Jesus".

Yes, we SHOULD do our best to make sure everyone has a good start in life. But you're not talking about doing your best. You're talking about doing your worst.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Sadly, those who want us to kill off fetuses insist on the teriminology because they think it negates the humanity of the fetus.

So long as they continue to do that, the opposing side will refer to fetuses as babies, just because those who want to kill them are too stupid to realize a fetus is a human, too.

What if we call them human fetuses? I have no problem with that. But calling a human fetus a baby in a discussion about abortion and the different stages of life or non life is just plain misleading.

"Non life". That's the thing. The insistence that a fetus lacks life. How strange that it moves, then. And sucks its thumb. And pees and swallows.

You can just call them human if you like. Then you'll get to see how ridiculous it is to insist anyone has the "right" to kill them.

My daughter's friend, Sarah, just had a D & C because she was pregnant and the fetus died in her womb and had to be removed. Would someone mind telling me how, if he wasn't alive to begin with, the doctor could tell that he had died and needed to be removed before he could start to rot and kill his mother?

 

[Immanuel]

Likewise a pleasure for me as it always is.

I have another theological question for you, if you don't mind. I heard somewhere that Christians believe babies have souls before they are born or maybe it was that some souls are waiting to be matched up with a human embryo. If a woman aborts would the soul go straight to heaven being an innocent being or would it go back in line with the other souls? Either way, wouldn't it be in a better place, either in heaven or in God's waiting room than on earth as an unwanted child? Shouldn't we do our best so that every soul that comes to earth has a good beginning in life?

What I or other Christians believe in this matter doesn't make a difference. I'd like to believe that the aborted soul goes straight to Heaven and quite frankly, I believe that God is in control and I do not have to worry about such things. That being said, since you don't believe in God, (I hope I am not misreading or mislabeling you, if so please correct me and forgive me) then it would appear that you simply favor ending their lives prematurely and I find that disturbing. It is not up to you to decide who lives and dies nor would it be ethical for anyone even the mother to decide that a baby dies prematurely.

The fact is that we don't know when the soul enters the human body or at least I don't think anyone knows when it does. I suppose anyone who believes that there is a soul believes that the soul enters the body at some point, but I doubt you can achieve a consensus as to when that is. Nor do we have any indication from the Bible as to what happens to the soul of a fetus should it die after the soul has entered its body. It you are right and I am wrong then no big deal, right? The baby dies and no one gives a damned about it. But, if I am right and you are wrong and the aborted soul is not saved then you have condemned a soul unjustly.

Now again, personally, I do not believe God would condemn such a soul, but then better safe than sorry.

Also, what you have said you have heard, "If a woman aborts would the soul go straight to heaven being an innocent being or would it go back in line with the other souls", I've heard to, but truthfully it sounds to me more like people just trying to console grieving parents who have naturally lost a child. There is absolutely no proof as to what happens to the soul of an aborted child.

Also, were you raised in a religious family? In the same sect you belong to now?

My dad used to read the Bible to me when I was a kid but we did not attend church. My parents began taking me to church from about the time I entered eight grade for about three years. I was confirmed Lutheran. Then we quit going to church. After I got married, I returned to church but attended various non-denominational churches. I have since returned to the Lutheran Church.

Immie

 

[AllieBaba]

God tells us that he knows us before we are born, when we are unformed blobs. I think that pretty much cinches that every child is a human in God's eyes from the moment of conception.

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Jeremiah 1:5

 

[Care4all]

God tells us that he knows us before we are born, when we are unformed blobs. I think that pretty much cinches that every child is a human in God's eyes from the moment of conception.

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Jeremiah 1:5

well, God does not tell ''us'' this about ourselves....

He tells Jeremiah, a PROPHET this.... God personally had a hand in him being born as a Prophet for us.

He knew Jeremiah before..., to me meant that he knew him in his Spiritual body and he put him in to a human body, as a Prophet for us.

And every child (embryo/fetus) is a human, not arguing on such...just stating that PROPHETS put here by God, ARE NOT ordinary humans such as you and me, imo this is NOT what this passage tells us with any certainty.

This passage speaks specifically to Jeremiah.

 

[Immanuel]

God tells us that he knows us before we are born, when we are unformed blobs. I think that pretty much cinches that every child is a human in God's eyes from the moment of conception.

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Jeremiah 1:5

well, God does not tell ''us'' this about ourselves....

He tells Jeremiah, a PROPHET this.... God personally had a hand in him being born as a Prophet for us.

He knew Jeremiah before..., to me meant that he knew him in his Spiritual body and he put him in to a human body, as a Prophet for us.

And every child (embryo/fetus) is a human, not arguing on such...just stating that PROPHETS put here by God, ARE NOT ordinary humans such as you and me, imo this is NOT what this passage tells us with any certainty.

This passage speaks specifically to Jeremiah.

I think you are wrong on this.

You are stretching this one out. You might also look at Isaiah 49:1. God said the same basic thing to Isaiah. So you think these two prophets were the only ones God knew from the womb? I hardly doubt that.

And there is a verse in the Psalms where it speaks of God knowing us before we were born... several in fact: Psalm 22:9-10, Psalm 58:3 and Psalm 139:13 for a good start.

BTW: when exactly did you become Pro-Choice? Where have I been and how did I let you down?

Immie

 

[Care4all]

God tells us that he knows us before we are born, when we are unformed blobs. I think that pretty much cinches that every child is a human in God's eyes from the moment of conception.

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Jeremiah 1:5

well, God does not tell ''us'' this about ourselves....

He tells Jeremiah, a PROPHET this.... God personally had a hand in him being born as a Prophet for us.

He knew Jeremiah before..., to me meant that he knew him in his Spiritual body and he put him in to a human body, as a Prophet for us.

And every child (embryo/fetus) is a human, not arguing on such...just stating that PROPHETS put here by God, ARE NOT ordinary humans such as you and me, imo this is NOT what this passage tells us with any certainty.

This passage speaks specifically to Jeremiah.

I think you are wrong on this.

You are stretching this one out. You might also look at Isaiah 49:1. God said the same basic thing to Isaiah. So you think these two prophets were the only ones God knew from the womb? I hardly doubt that.

And there is a verse in the Psalms where it speaks of God knowing us before we were born... several in fact: Psalm 22:9-10, Psalm 58:3 and Psalm 139:13 for a good start.

BTW: when exactly did you become Pro-Choice? Where have I been and how did I let you down?

Immie

I'm not....

Thanks for the verses on psalms, i will look them up....

I suppose, without having seen the passages that might speak to us every day folk on this, I just thought God would have told us such, in a clear manner, as he told these prophets of how they were important in His plan....

And I think I have a hard time believing that God personally knew all the murderers and rapists, and thieves and child rapists that you say He put on earth and formed in the womb? and yes, i can accept it is a "mystery" but usually, mysteries of God, imo, are good things...and it is hard for me to find a good thing in that...in all honesty...and maybe you can explain that to me....?

And if we accept that this is all in God's plan, then the girl who aborted, was also in God's plan for her....something we may not see on the surface, such as bringing her to HIM in the long run...or something like that....and if this is the long run plan, then how do we as prolifers fit in to it? Are we taking away the free will choice from them, that God planned to use to capture those who have strayed? Or again is this all in His plan?

I know, it seems like circles, but they are honest questions Immie...and maybe this is more for a YM conversation than here...but I am interested in hearing your thoughts on it.

Care

 

[Immanuel]

well, God does not tell ''us'' this about ourselves....

He tells Jeremiah, a PROPHET this.... God personally had a hand in him being born as a Prophet for us.

He knew Jeremiah before..., to me meant that he knew him in his Spiritual body and he put him in to a human body, as a Prophet for us.

And every child (embryo/fetus) is a human, not arguing on such...just stating that PROPHETS put here by God, ARE NOT ordinary humans such as you and me, imo this is NOT what this passage tells us with any certainty.

This passage speaks specifically to Jeremiah.

I think you are wrong on this.

You are stretching this one out. You might also look at Isaiah 49:1. God said the same basic thing to Isaiah. So you think these two prophets were the only ones God knew from the womb? I hardly doubt that.

And there is a verse in the Psalms where it speaks of God knowing us before we were born... several in fact: Psalm 22:9-10, Psalm 58:3 and Psalm 139:13 for a good start.

BTW: when exactly did you become Pro-Choice? Where have I been and how did I let you down?

Immie

I'm not....

Thanks for the verses on psalms, i will look them up....

I suppose, without having seen the passages that might speak to us every day folk on this, I just thought God would have told us such, in a clear manner, as he told these prophets of how they were important in His plan....

And I think I have a hard time believing that God personally knew all the murderers and rapists, and thieves and child rapists that you say He put on earth and formed in the womb? and yes, i can accept it is a "mystery" but usually, mysteries of God, imo, are good things...and it is hard for me to find a good thing in that...in all honesty...and maybe you can explain that to me....?

And if we accept that this is all in God's plan, then the girl who aborted, was also in God's plan for her....something we may not see on the surface, such as bringing her to HIM in the long run...or something like that....and if this is the long run plan, then how do we as prolifers fit in to it? Are we taking away the free will choice from them, that God planned to use to capture those who have strayed? Or again is this all in His plan?

I know, it seems like circles, but they are honest questions Immie...and maybe this is more for a YM conversation than here...but I am interested in hearing your thoughts on it.

Care

Awful lot here and no time to answer. Also, seems those questions are for another topic.

In other words, I'm not ignoring you, but I just don't have time to even try answering those questions right now. Not only that, but I am not sure I CAN answer them.

Immie

 

[Newby]

Sorry, I try my best to stay out of lover's quarrels.

Immie

Immie, until I read this thread I thought you were a female just based on the things that you said.

(I know Immanuel is a male name, but you could have chosen it for various reasons.)

It is a pleasure to enlighten you.

I've had others who thought that I was a female. Some have said it was because I sign my post Immie. I don't like Immy which I have been told was more masculine.

Immie

Yeah, that might be it, not totally sure. I just know that I always pictured you as female. But, most people think I'm male as well, so goes both ways I guess.

 

[Sky Dancer]

God tells us that he knows us before we are born, when we are unformed blobs. I think that pretty much cinches that every child is a human in God's eyes from the moment of conception.

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Jeremiah 1:5

Fertlized eggs are babies? I don't think so. Human fertilized eggs are human eggs-we can't call them babies.

 

[sealybobo]

God tells us that he knows us before we are born, when we are unformed blobs. I think that pretty much cinches that every child is a human in God's eyes from the moment of conception.

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Jeremiah 1:5

Fertlized eggs are babies? I don't think so. Human fertilized eggs are human eggs-we can't call them babies.

Congress' First Move Under Donald Trump Is To Make Abortion More Expensive | The Huffington Post

 

[koshergrl]

Oh look, the board perv has resurrected a past board perv's thread.

 

[Chuz Life]

God tells us that he knows us before we are born, when we are unformed blobs. I think that pretty much cinches that every child is a human in God's eyes from the moment of conception.

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Jeremiah 1:5

Fertlized eggs are babies? I don't think so. Human fertilized eggs are human eggs-we can't call them babies.

Congress' First Move Under Donald Trump Is To Make Abortion More Expensive | The Huffington Post

Good news indeed!

 

[HenryBHough]

Abortion for some mental conditions does hold certain appeal.

I could, for example, get behind extremely late term abortions - coat-hangering any child who remains a liberal beyond age 18. Mind you, not using the coat hanger as a scraper - more as a garrote.

 

[koshergrl]

Abortion for some mental conditions does hold certain appeal.

I could, for example, get behind extremely late term abortions - coat-hangering any child who remains a liberal beyond age 18. Mind you, not using the coat hanger as a scraper - more as a garrote.

I believe if we build the loony bins, they will fill.

 

[sealybobo]

Abortion for some mental conditions does hold certain appeal.

I could, for example, get behind extremely late term abortions - coat-hangering any child who remains a liberal beyond age 18. Mind you, not using the coat hanger as a scraper - more as a garrote.

THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK

 

[ding]

God tells us that he knows us before we are born, when we are unformed blobs. I think that pretty much cinches that every child is a human in God's eyes from the moment of conception.

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Jeremiah 1:5

Fertlized eggs are babies? I don't think so. Human fertilized eggs are human eggs-we can't call them babies.

Congress' First Move Under Donald Trump Is To Make Abortion More Expensive | The Huffington Post

"...On Monday, Trump reinstated the “Global Gag Rule,” prohibiting U.S. foreign aid money from going to any global health program that provides or even mentions abortion...."

Donald Trump Reinstates Ronald Reagan's Abortion 'Global Gag Rule' | The Huffington Post

 

[ding]

Abortion for some mental conditions does hold certain appeal.

I could, for example, get behind extremely late term abortions - coat-hangering any child who remains a liberal beyond age 18. Mind you, not using the coat hanger as a scraper - more as a garrote.

THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK

So you believe government should promote the abortion of its citizens? Why?

 

[sealybobo]

Abortion for some mental conditions does hold certain appeal.

I could, for example, get behind extremely late term abortions - coat-hangering any child who remains a liberal beyond age 18. Mind you, not using the coat hanger as a scraper - more as a garrote.

THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK

So you believe government should promote the abortion of its citizens? Why?

I think it's no big deal, we are overpopulated and they or we can't afford them and don't want them